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Just as the title suggests. Most of these new players were running beginner expansions such as dark vengeance, and were just not able to deal with it. They are all learning, and the utter despair of being outspent money wise has not kicked in yet. So do you think it is good form to bring this model to a beginners event? Should the organizer have allowed it?

TFG. Truly.


Although they probably should get used to GWs pay to win environment. At the very least they should get used to playing TFGs everywhere.

There should have been restrictions such no AV higher than X, no single unit costing more than X and so on. So it sounds like a poorly planned event with a super nerd using a super heavy in a noob game. At my local shop we call them noob stompers and we rip on them pretty good for doing things like this.

I'm not going to blame the tournament or the rules set. From what you told us, this is a BEGINNER'S Tournament and someone, a specific someone, was TFG. Somebody who took advantage of the environment to be a dick about the game. That's ridiculously jacked up.

I've gone to beginner level tournaments. Either I will play an army that I have no idea what im doing or i'll ask to be the ringer for the event and help my game along by answer questions. The last one I ringed at was 500pts and the TO was happy to have some else there that could answer questions that were basic rules and help players with strategy.

Most the votes are no for your questions and I'd have to agree. Taking any super heavy or LoW at that point level is a bit excessive.

I'm surprised the TO didn't just say "Haha. No." when TFG showed up. It's not just that it's too strong at that point level (actual competitive 750 lists could probably handle it), it's that the TO asked for this to be a BEGINNERS tourney! A beginner's tourney means most players are going to be bringing mostly sub-optimal builds, builds made from whatever their collect could allow. They're the players who think having one of each weapon in a single squad is cool, that taking useless wargear will eventually pay off, and who buy every upgrade option just in case. This is not the place for a Knight.

I almost said No because it's Immoral, but it really is about making sure that we attract players to the game, not punish them for trying.

 Caveman wrote:
There should have been restrictions such no AV higher than X, no single unit costing more than X and so on. So it sounds like a poorly planned event with a super nerd using a super heavy in a noob game. At my local shop we call them noob stompers and we rip on them pretty good for doing things like this.

OH, I let him know what I thought. I was the ringer but did not end up playing due to being the odd man, so I stayed to help with rules and some guys there were on their second game ever. I don't run shizzle but I am going to make the suggestion for the next one that it be nothing super heavy allowed.

The fact that you can fit a Imp Knight in a battle forged army at 750 points kind of blew my mind anyway, but I am a chaos player so I pay no attention to how other armies look on the FOC.

Did he ended up winning the tournament?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Did he ended up winning the tournament?

Yes, almost uncontested. The Tau player did almost manage to hold objectives at end of game, since most were eternal war missions, but even his riptide fell to the Imp Knight.

I wouldn't call it "immoral", just a total dick move by someone who shouldn't be asked to participate in beginners' tourneys anymore.

 redleger wrote:
Yes, almost uncontested.

Then he (or she) was right. Might makes right.
The event organizer, though… what was he/she thinking? Or trying to achieve?

He didn't bring 2 knights? lol.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 redleger wrote:
Yes, almost uncontested.

Then he (or she) was right. Might makes right.
The event organizer, though… what was he/she thinking? Or trying to achieve?

I applaud your lack of sexism, and also your optimism that we had girls playing in this tourny. I however do not believe might makes right. It makes victory, but since we are not all Sith here, its hard to abide by that reasoning.

The even organizer failed to put out no LOW guidance, so I think he was banking on the common sense of the people that play there. And he was almost correct.

Yeah, this is the event organizer's fault.

I voted yes, by the way. If the rules don't say otherwise, people are going to do it. Better to let the new players know what they're getting into before they spend too much money on it.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
Yeah, this is the event organizer's fault.

I voted yes, by the way. If the rules don't say otherwise, people are going to do it. Better to let the new players know what they're getting into before they spend too much money on it.

To be fair, there's ways of doing that that don't waste people's time in killjoy tournaments.

Well, was the guy a beginner? You said you were the "ringer" like you were the only one, so, unless you know that he was there specifically to stomp newbies for giggles I'd be interested to hear what he had to say in response when you "let him know what you thought" since you really didn't touch on it.

Even if the guy was a noob eating shark, I can just as easily imagine it being the other way around. Just because he has an Imperial Knight, doesn't mean he has a complete grasp of the intricacies for the many, many unwritten rules and etiquette like he was born with it that people seem to expect. People seem to forget that in most games that, yes, you want to have fun, but you don't have this entire complex meta scene of self handicapping like in 40k; it can be a bit of a culture shock, it is anything but intuitive. Maybe he fell for that stupid line everyone runs around telling newbies to "play what you want" and that's what he wanted to play. Imperial Knight models or books don't come with a label on the box, "Warning; may make you a social pariah". With all the foaming-at-the-mouth, rampant screaming and crying over the Eldar Codex since it's release, the bitching about IK has all but fallen off the radar compared to what it once was and doesn't get mentioned nearly as much even if you do some cursory forum browsing.

As the TO, I'd have a really hard time turning someone away at the door because someone brought the "wrong" army, an army that has it's own legitimate Codex and models, because I failed to address a concern that's widespread and well known to be acknowledged in just about any tournament in existence. Yeah, it can kill the fun for the other players if one guy stomps the rest because of it. But it also says to them that their army and lists might not be welcome someday if I choose the "wrong" models or my Codex gets changed and honestly that puts me off way more than having to face a tougher opponent.

It would be poor form to do this, but not nearly as poor form as running a 750 point tournament in the first place is.

The game is not balanced below 1000 points so there are always going to be major problems with a tournament this size. The Knight is just a symptom of a larger issue.

 redleger wrote:
I however do not believe might makes right.

It is okay. Just make sure not to tell the mighty about it .
More seriously, depending, he might have just been a jerk, but it is the TO's job to make clear rules, or at least guidelines, about what to bring to the tournament. And also, quite a lot, it is GW's fault for creating Knights and releasing them as a “normal” army in the first place. Extremely skewed lists are quite stupid. With the right dedicated anti-tank, they will likely be easily dealt with, but without it, most of the guns will be utterly useless and that does not make for fun games.

no marine player brought a centurion star, no decurion necron or eldar?I must say wow, what armies did people play at the tournament, if I may ask?

BlackSwanDelta wrote:

Well, was the guy a beginner? You said you were the "ringer" like you were the only one, so, unless you know that he was there specifically to stomp newbies for giggles I'd be interested to hear what he had to say in response when you "let him know what you thought" since you really didn't touch on it.

Even if the guy was a noob eating shark, I can just as easily imagine it being the other way around. Just because he has an Imperial Knight, doesn't mean he has a complete grasp of the intricacies for the many, many unwritten rules and etiquette like he was born with it that people seem to expect. People seem to forget that in most games that, yes, you want to have fun, but you don't have this entire complex meta scene of self handicapping like in 40k; it can be a bit of a culture shock, it is anything but intuitive. Maybe he fell for that stupid line everyone runs around telling newbies to "play what you want" and that's what he wanted to play. Imperial Knight models or books don't come with a label on the box, "Warning; may make you a social pariah". With all the foaming-at-the-mouth, rampant screaming and crying over the Eldar Codex since it's release, the bitching about IK has all but fallen off the radar compared to what it once was and doesn't get mentioned nearly as much even if you do some cursory forum browsing.

As the TO, I'd have a really hard time turning someone away at the door because someone brought the "wrong" army, an army that has it's own legitimate Codex and models, because I failed to address a concern that's widespread and well known to be acknowledged in just about any tournament in existence. Yeah, it can kill the fun for the other players if one guy stomps the rest because of it. But it also says to them that their army and lists might not be welcome someday if I choose the "wrong" models or my Codex gets changed and honestly that puts me off way more than having to face a tougher opponent.

By ringer I mean I technically did not qualify for beginner tournament status since I made it all the way through the last beginner tournament bracket. I am no expert and I just play for fun, but being competitive is in my nature, just the way Im built. I try to fight honorably though. To be honest my army is handicapped by GW since CSM Nurgle is no longer as competitive as it was when I researched what army to start in the first place.

By let him know what I though I mean I told him I thought it was poor form to bring a knight to a beginner tournament. There was no yelling or threats, it was civil. He said in response he just bought it, wanted to play it so he did. But I saw the look on his face when he pulled it out of his carrying case. That look your kid give you when you catch him in the cookie jar. He knew it was jacked up. That is where my heart burn comes from. 2 armies were made up primarily of Dark Vengeance. We are talking second game for over half of the players. there was an expectation of being able to come and play and learn. while that happened, it was not as constructive as it could have been.

I did see a necron decurion detachment. It was manageable by most armies I saw. He did well but there was nothing in there that would have stopped someone from being able to give some well aimed hate back at that army vs well aimed hate bouncing off of the IK.

This poll is just to gather opinions. I already decided to talk to the store owner about the next tourny. I didn't want to do it there in front of everyone. And no one chooses IKs with the understanding they are buying a balanced army. You know if you have done your research that an IK codex means hate. Unbound games, you expect to see them, you plan on it, anything goes. 750 beginner tourny, common sense should over ride your desire to bring a IK IMO.

YMMV


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
It would be poor form to do this, but not nearly as poor form as running a 750 point tournament in the first place is.

The game is not balanced below 1000 points so there are always going to be major problems with a tournament this size. The Knight is just a symptom of a larger issue.

I agree. But playing a larger point tourny means more models. We are trying to grow the game here locally, so allowing time to echelon the models, decide you like playing with your chosen starter or expac is the idea behind the smaller games. If you were a beginner interested in playing 40k, and the first tourny for beginners to learn was 1500 points, you might not start up. Thats alot of money right off the bat. 750 is manageable in the beginning. I started with a DV box. I dont play anything form it anymore but the cultists, but it was a starting point.

The choices in the poll are a bit limited, so I chose "Yes, or the TO would have said something". In the end, TO that excludes people from their tourney excludes people from their hobby. It is up to us all to self police our own hobby, to welcome people in, and to not be TFG.

If it were me running this suposed Beginners Tournament, and one or more "beginners" showed up with units that unbalanced the atmosphere of the game, I would have moved the offending players to an exabition group match, where the offender is pared up up with one or more under optimized beginners verse an equal amount of better optimized beginners, and Game Master a narrative match focused on learning rather than winning. Then run round 2 as normal, and probably only have a round 3 if time permitted. Yes, the tournament got sidelined. But no one was excluded, everyone got to participate, and all the beginners got to see how epic the game can be with a little bit a showmanship.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The choices in the poll are a bit limited, so I chose "Yes, or the TO would have said something". In the end, TO that excludes people from their tourney excludes people from their hobby. It is up to us all to self police our own hobby, to welcome people in, and to not be TFG.

If it were me running this suposed Beginners Tournament, and one or more "beginners" showed up with units that unbalanced the atmosphere of the game, I would have moved the offending players to an exabition group match, where the offender is pared up up with one or more under optimized beginners verse an equal amount of better optimized beginners, and Game Master a narrative match focused on learning rather than winning. Then run round 2 as normal, and probably only have a round 3 if time permitted. Yes, the tournament got sidelined. But no one was excluded, everyone got to participate, and all the beginners got to see how epic the game can be with a little bit a showmanship.

SJ

I like it.

 redleger wrote:

BlackSwanDelta wrote:

Well, was the guy a beginner? You said you were the "ringer" like you were the only one, so, unless you know that he was there specifically to stomp newbies for giggles I'd be interested to hear what he had to say in response when you "let him know what you thought" since you really didn't touch on it.

Even if the guy was a noob eating shark, I can just as easily imagine it being the other way around. Just because he has an Imperial Knight, doesn't mean he has a complete grasp of the intricacies for the many, many unwritten rules and etiquette like he was born with it that people seem to expect. People seem to forget that in most games that, yes, you want to have fun, but you don't have this entire complex meta scene of self handicapping like in 40k; it can be a bit of a culture shock, it is anything but intuitive. Maybe he fell for that stupid line everyone runs around telling newbies to "play what you want" and that's what he wanted to play. Imperial Knight models or books don't come with a label on the box, "Warning; may make you a social pariah". With all the foaming-at-the-mouth, rampant screaming and crying over the Eldar Codex since it's release, the bitching about IK has all but fallen off the radar compared to what it once was and doesn't get mentioned nearly as much even if you do some cursory forum browsing.

As the TO, I'd have a really hard time turning someone away at the door because someone brought the "wrong" army, an army that has it's own legitimate Codex and models, because I failed to address a concern that's widespread and well known to be acknowledged in just about any tournament in existence. Yeah, it can kill the fun for the other players if one guy stomps the rest because of it. But it also says to them that their army and lists might not be welcome someday if I choose the "wrong" models or my Codex gets changed and honestly that puts me off way more than having to face a tougher opponent.

By ringer I mean I technically did not qualify for beginner tournament status since I made it all the way through the last beginner tournament bracket. I am no expert and I just play for fun, but being competitive is in my nature, just the way Im built. I try to fight honorably though. To be honest my army is handicapped by GW since CSM Nurgle is no longer as competitive as it was when I researched what army to start in the first place.

By let him know what I though I mean I told him I thought it was poor form to bring a knight to a beginner tournament. There was no yelling or threats, it was civil. He said in response he just bought it, wanted to play it so he did. But I saw the look on his face when he pulled it out of his carrying case. That look your kid give you when you catch him in the cookie jar. He knew it was jacked up. That is where my heart burn comes from. 2 armies were made up primarily of Dark Vengeance. We are talking second game for over half of the players. there was an expectation of being able to come and play and learn. while that happened, it was not as constructive as it could have been.

I did see a necron decurion detachment. It was manageable by most armies I saw. He did well but there was nothing in there that would have stopped someone from being able to give some well aimed hate back at that army vs well aimed hate bouncing off of the IK.

This poll is just to gather opinions. I already decided to talk to the store owner about the next tourny. I didn't want to do it there in front of everyone. And no one chooses IKs with the understanding they are buying a balanced army. You know if you have done your research that an IK codex means hate. Unbound games, you expect to see them, you plan on it, anything goes. 750 beginner tourny, common sense should over ride your desire to bring a IK IMO.

YMMV


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
It would be poor form to do this, but not nearly as poor form as running a 750 point tournament in the first place is.

The game is not balanced below 1000 points so there are always going to be major problems with a tournament this size. The Knight is just a symptom of a larger issue.

I agree. But playing a larger point tourny means more models. We are trying to grow the game here locally, so allowing time to echelon the models, decide you like playing with your chosen starter or expac is the idea behind the smaller games. If you were a beginner interested in playing 40k, and the first tourny for beginners to learn was 1500 points, you might not start up. Thats alot of money right off the bat. 750 is manageable in the beginning. I started with a DV box. I dont play anything form it anymore but the cultists, but it was a starting point.

So, in short, you have no idea who the guy is or what he's like, the only pointer you have to go on was the "look on his face" so you're just taking a guess.

And you don't believe anyone can buy into a hobby without doing a ton (or even any) of precursory research into it first? That happens in literally every hobby I've ever seen or heard about regardless of how much costs to get into. I do firearms instruction and you have no idea how many people go out and buy firearms for hundreds, thousands of dollars and have absolutely no idea how to safely handle, clean, or shoot them; some don't even understand how to buy ammunition (which can be explosively dangerous) or couldn't even recall the brand of the gun they own. These are items that can kill you. You think this doesn't translate into some plastic army men? That's downright laughable.

Sorry, but the meta isn't something people are born with or intuitively expect, and with the ability to get cheap stuff online and not talk to a single person beforehand, and GW going full tilt with this kind of business model, you can only expect more of this exact same thing.

How do you guys know he wasn't just a noob that got attracted to Wh40k because "ZOMG THE MECHA!"?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The choices in the poll are a bit limited, so I chose "Yes, or the TO would have said something".

I'd have to agree on that. The TO is the guy who should make sure the tournament is well run - if it's a beginner's event with lots of starter armies at 750 points he should have limited things beginners have no chance to fight. It's not just the player's fault for bringing death on two legs, even if it was unfair and unsportsmanlike (IMO).

750 is just too small to have a chance at countering everything, especially if you have a starter set. But maybe it can be sold as a "learning experience" to the poor newbies that got crushed.

Granted, you don't know for sure where people get their stuff, or how much they consider themselves a beginner. That guy may actually not have realized it was wrong to bring this.

The TO should step in and say;

"Hey there! Wow, that's an impressive model, and you painted it really cool! How's it worked for you? First time using it, eh? Well, let me tell you, Imperial Knights are crazy powerful! In 40k they're what's known as a "Super Heavy", and require very specialized weapons and tactics to take down. It's rare that someone will refuse to play against them, but it's good form to tell people ahead of time that you're bringing these things. I apologize, I should have included in the tournament package that this event would not allow Super Heavies. I have a vet here who's a "ringer" today, and I don't need him. Would you mind if we let you use his force, and I refund you the tourney entry fee/give you free pizza? You can still submit this model for best painted, and I again apologize for not being clearer in the tourney package. If that's not agreeable with you, I'll refund you the tourney entry, still give you pizza/entry into painting prizes, and give you free entry to the next tourney. Thanks!"

Its very bad form to change the rules after the event has started. I would get pretty pissed if someone said I couldn't use my models when the event rules I signed up for didn't specify there were restrictions.

Was he a beginner? I can't answer that with certaintity. I Played him at the last normal tourny and he is experienced enough with the Army that he played and confident so I would say no, but can not guarantee it. All I have to go on is the look on his face? Yes. You ever watched someone do something they knew was not right and they did it any way. I see it every day, I train Enlisted Soldiers and for someone who is supposed to be living by new morals and values, they certainly do the wrong thing on a daily basis, so I know the look all to well.

Expecting someone to do the right thing and seeing it in practice as you said with your fire arms instruction, two seperate things. But aren't forums like this to maybe provide input, guidance, mentorship and inspiration?

I think we all agree there should have been a rule preventing these types of shenanigans. I think we are getting off topic though. Its simple. Cool or Uncool. we can all theory craft as to why he might have done it. But should he have done it. Would you? Those are the thought provoking questions I am asking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its very bad form to change the rules after the event has started. I would get pretty pissed if someone said I couldn't use my models when the event rules I signed up for didn't specify there were restrictions.

Agreed. Not saying he should have been turned away. I am talking on more of a sportsmanship/ internal moral compass type level. Should have have even brought it in the first place. Cool-yes, why not. stomping noobs is fun, or uncool- this dude had no common sense.

The "should he have done it? Would you?" question doesn't exist in a vacuum outside of it's motivation or consequences, intended and unintended. It's only thought provoking because of those aspects of why he done it or why we would do it. Sitting there and framing a biased question with "He was bad, I know he knows he was being bad, would you be bad too?" doesn't explore anything.

BlackSwanDelta wrote:
The "should he have done it? Would you?" question doesn't exist in a vacuum outside of it's motivation or consequences, intended and unintended. It's only thought provoking because of those aspects of why he done it or why we would do it. Sitting there and framing a biased question with "He was bad, I know he knows he was being bad, would you be bad too?" doesn't explore anything.

Are you from Altus Oklahoma?