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Ohio.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its very bad form to change the rules after the event has started. I would get pretty pissed if someone said I couldn't use my models when the event rules I signed up for didn't specify there were restrictions.

Oh absolutely! I've been in that position myself too (long story). However, there's got to be a line. What if it was listed "no Lords of War allowed", and you hadn't yet purchased the codex or heard that Knights were now officially Lords of War? You wouldn't be wrong in bringing the Knight, but the TO would be wrong in how wrong how they listed it either. This tourney was listed as a "beginners tournament". The purchaser of the Knights may not have been wrong in not realizing that Knights don't belong at a beginner level, but the TO wasn't wrong either. The store owner WOULD have to bend over backwards to show the player that they're very much accepted, just not in that setting. It would definitely suck for the person who brought the Knight, but having everything credited and having an alternative given right there would be far preferable to either letting his Knight stomp face or just turning him away altogether.

No, the TO was definitely in the wrong. He should know what he wants to allow and what he won't ahead of time. Its the only way to be fair.

 Grey Templar wrote:
No, the TO was definitely in the wrong. He should know what he wants to allow and what he won't ahead of time. Its the only way to be fair.

Im not sure what the TOs thoughts were, as I said I haven't talked to him about it. I just know the IKs 3 opponents were pretty easily defeated with no fun had by any of them. Well the Tau player tried his hardest, but you can't explode super heavies so his riptide smash was basically useless.

This is not about the TO though. Im simply talking in your own head, would you. I love my FLGS and the family that runs it is awesome, helpful, and always treat us (gaming community) well. I am thinking the no LOW rule was not in place simply because no one would have thought to do it at a beginners tournament. A learning experience for sure. I just know that when I saw it and saw him pull it out. along with the others, there was that sense of "well now Im playing for second place" I am not saying this person is a bad person. I don't know him like that. But I believe he is intelligent enough to know that it was a party foul.

375 x2 is 750. So it could have been 2 knights - he was actually pretty nice to only bring one. That's the way I look at it.

Did no one bring A squad of wriaths? How about a land radier? A draigo? A flying hive? I know you said dark vengence but at 750 I could make a pretty brutal RW list that would spank a knight.

I mean come on man - if you are gonna complain about a knight you have to restrict a lot of things. in a 1500 point game my IK rarely survive the first turn. At 750 if you aren't bringing enough anti tank to kill a single IK you brought a weak list and you couldn't expect to win anyways. A beginner will learn from this next tournament.

 Xenomancers wrote:
375 x2 is 750. So it could have been 2 knights - he was actually pretty nice to only bring one. That's the way I look at it.

Did no one bring A squad of wriaths? How about a land radier? A draigo? A flying hive? I know you said dark vengence but at 750 I could make a pretty brutal RW list that would spank a knight.

I mean come on man - if you are gonna complain about a knight you have to restrict a lot of things. in a 1500 point game my IK rarely survive the first turn. At 750 if you aren't bringing enough anti tank to kill a single IK you brought a weak list and you couldn't expect to win anyways. A beginner will learn from this next tournament.

The Oathsworn detachment special rules say that it can't be your primary detachment so you'd have to go unbound to do that. I hope that the tournament at least had some rules to force you to bring a battleforged army. On the other hand, if you bring 2 Knight Gallants you still have 100 points left over for some other detachment to be your primary.

 Xenomancers wrote:
375 x2 is 750. So it could have been 2 knights - he was actually pretty nice to only bring one. That's the way I look at it.

Did no one bring A squad of wriaths? How about a land radier? A draigo? A flying hive? I know you said dark vengence but at 750 I could make a pretty brutal RW list that would spank a knight.

I mean come on man - if you are gonna complain about a knight you have to restrict a lot of things. in a 1500 point game my IK rarely survive the first turn. At 750 if you aren't bringing enough anti tank to kill a single IK you brought a weak list and you couldn't expect to win anyways. A beginner will learn from this next tournament.

No he couldn't have because it was a Battle Forged requirement. You could buy a beginner box, maybe another squad of marines, take them all WYSIWYG, which is what was a requirement, not expecting to see a Knight, on your first or second game, and spank it?

1 Ordo Xenos Inquisitor

Inquisitorial Henchmen Warband: 3 acolytes with bolters, 1 psyker

1 Knight Gallant

1 Knight Paladin

Fun times for everyone! 2 detachments, battleforged and 750 points exactly.

How do you know he wasn't a GW agent sent in to motivate sales?
Think about it. Now all these beginners are thinking. "Man that Imperial Knight is SO strong! I'll never be able to beat that thing. Oh wait I could buy one too and be just as good as he was, or buy 2 and be twice as good!"

GW profits.

He didn't smell of sulfur did he? Sulfur is always a dead give away they work for GW.

Personally, I voted yes, it should be allowable. First of all, we don't know the age, or the experience of the Imperial Knight player. Secondly, if a tournament organizer wants to include or exclude any certain units, then said tournament organizer should stipulate any inclusions and or exclusions before hand. And lastly, if someone who has been around the place of gaming, tries to pull some shenanigans like what has already been suggested earlier in the thread. Then it would be within the perogative of the tournament organizer to disqualify any entry based upon experience level. I would not permit a veteran player pull that asshat maneuver, in what is supposed to be a welcome to the game tourney.

Without knowing the person it's hard to say. I mean if you're hosting a 750 tournament where you turn in your list the day of with no other restrictions, then it should be fairly obvious that a new play would look to something durable and hard hitting and COOL$ like a IK to help balance out their lack of experience.

I still think I'm rather new to the game, but I had an issue where rules were changed before the tournament started to other people's advantage.
It was a small game, 500-750 I forget which, with the usual restrictions. 6 out of 8 players talked with the TO the day before and changed it to no minimum FOC and all kill point games. Yeah. Did not have fun that day.

Same with this guy. I mean he had a look on his face, so what. Maybe he was happy with how well it was put together or thinking it would be intimidating. The TO hopefully learned a lesson from it, but I wouldn't really assume the worst out of someone for it.

So we are gonna assume that the knight player wasnt a newbie

die toten hosen wrote:
So we are gonna assume that the knight player wasnt a newbie

I am saying I do not know for 100% but I played him in the last normal tournament, and he was not playing like someone who was the target audience of a beginners tournament. However as I said before, I do not know. I think we are way off track though. The poll question was simply is it ok to do this. Like if it was your second or 3rd game would this be the kind of thing that would draw you in, or put you off about the game. My first game outside of my garage was with nothing more than the Dark Vengeance force, less than 600 pts. I played a Eldar player who had a wave serpent and a jet bike. I could not do anything agianst it and utterly was tabled turn 3. I learned, researched, bought models as I could afford them and built up 2 armies now that are over 3000 apiece. But I can say it was not fun. However it was a PUG and not a beginners tournament. Very Different situation. The expectation, I think we can all agree on, was that people come in, get some practice, learn the core rules, and have some fun. for atleast 3 opponents, that did not happen.

But many here apparently think its ok to come to a tournament, squash beginners who are learning with a knight for gaks and giggles. I however thought it was in bad form.

Force him to play maelstrom missions, where he has no chance of getting to the objectives with his one knight, and just ignore it for the whole game

 redleger wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:
So we are gonna assume that the knight player wasnt a newbie

I am saying I do not know for 100% but I played him in the last normal tournament, and he was not playing like someone who was the target audience of a beginners tournament. However as I said before, I do not know. I think we are way off track though. The poll question was simply is it ok to do this. Like if it was your second or 3rd game would this be the kind of thing that would draw you in, or put you off about the game. My first game outside of my garage was with nothing more than the Dark Vengeance force, less than 600 pts. I played a Eldar player who had a wave serpent and a jet bike. I could not do anything agianst it and utterly was tabled turn 3. I learned, researched, bought models as I could afford them and built up 2 armies now that are over 3000 apiece. But I can say it was not fun. However it was a PUG and not a beginners tournament. Very Different situation. The expectation, I think we can all agree on, was that people come in, get some practice, learn the core rules, and have some fun. for atleast 3 opponents, that did not happen.

But many here apparently think its ok to come to a tournament, squash beginners who are learning with a knight for gaks and giggles. I however thought it was in bad form.

To answer the question, i think its fine for a beginner to come to a targeted tourney with whatever army he chooses wether eldar, orks, SM, knights, etc.

Whats NOT okay is for a spurge lord who has been playing 40k for 20 years to come to a beginners event and crush players who are still learning

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its very bad form to change the rules after the event has started. I would get pretty pissed if someone said I couldn't use my models when the event rules I signed up for didn't specify there were restrictions.

I agree its bad form ,but I also think that its the lesser of two evils in this case. I think the poster above got it right. Be polite and compensate the player for not letting him or her use the model. Assume the best in people and work under the assumption that they didn't know the knight isn't a "beginner" model that way there is no bad feelings about not being able to use it. I would have to think if your polite and did all that most reasonable people maybe dissapointed ,but understand. I also think calling this a beginner tournament indicates that winning isnt the real goal ,but learning and getting an introduction to a competitive environment.

 redleger wrote:

die toten hosen wrote:
So we are gonna assume that the knight player wasnt a newbie

I am saying I do not know for 100% but I played him in the last normal tournament, and he was not playing like someone who was the target audience of a beginners tournament. However as I said before, I do not know. I think we are way off track though. The poll question was simply is it ok to do this. Like if it was your second or 3rd game would this be the kind of thing that would draw you in, or put you off about the game. My first game outside of my garage was with nothing more than the Dark Vengeance force, less than 600 pts. I played a Eldar player who had a wave serpent and a jet bike. I could not do anything agianst it and utterly was tabled turn 3. I learned, researched, bought models as I could afford them and built up 2 armies now that are over 3000 apiece. But I can say it was not fun. However it was a PUG and not a beginners tournament. Very Different situation. The expectation, I think we can all agree on, was that people come in, get some practice, learn the core rules, and have some fun. for atleast 3 opponents, that did not happen.

But many here apparently think its ok to come to a tournament, squash beginners who are learning with a knight for gaks and giggles. I however thought it was in bad form.

You said you wanted a thought provoking conversation, and that is what you are getting. You have the poll to look directly at the results of your initial question, but the direction of the discussion is going to go further then that. It seems you're repeating we're "off topic" because you don't personally agree with the thoughts that are being provoked or because some of them are critical of your own behavior and perceptions. Not everyone gets started in the game the same way that you did, or think people should, and that is an important point to consider answering when you ask the question "what would you do?" since we are trying to frame our answer from the perspective of a beginner and not someone who has the foreknowledge of the game's complex meta scene that people seem to think is "common sense", of which it is anything but that. You're not accepting of the fact that people can, and do, buy models without knowing the full impact they may have in a certain area's meta and how people will make assumptions about them regardless of their actual intentions. I'm not trying to single you out over it, this viewpoint is utterly rampant in the 40k player base overall; that all new players will have an intuitive grasp of the unwritten meta that governs the 40k scene at large. Simply being the majority opinion doesn't make it right when it's based on a fallacy that's clearly and demonstrably wrong. The question you presented is directly descended from the widespread acceptance of that fallacy and it just can't be divorced from the premise if you value any kind of real discussion about it and that's quite clear from the much more varied responses, opinions, and solutions that others have presented.

I stand corrected. I guess its hard to describe what i saw without people thinking i am assuming the worst in people. But in reality i usually do based on what i do for a living. My experience was he was being a douche. But re reading this thread i can see other valid reasonings.

Lol, I get the guys that said the TO should have wiki'd it. Otherwise all's fair in 40k, yadda yadda.

But the 17 others who said it's fine?

Think we have a % of "that guys" for reference now

"Taking a Knight to a knife fight".

I rarely worry about Knights, personally. The Tourney was NOOB 750, IMHO thats all that needed to be said. I would have openly critized him. "ah, look he came to club baby seals, how cool are you."

It got done to me; friendly pick up game night organised by GW. 1000 points. Then they say "Oh no, we can't have objectives, then the guys with the knights can't win. Let's play extermination."

too bad someone didn't bring a close combat wraithknight to bring him down

 redleger wrote:
Just as the title suggests. Most of these new players were running beginner expansions such as dark vengeance, and were just not able to deal with it. They are all learning, and the utter despair of being outspent money wise has not kicked in yet. So do you think it is good form to bring this model to a beginners event?

Do the rules allow you to play it? If yes, then do-so.

Should the organizer have allowed it?

It depends on what the organizer was trying to achieve.
If he wanted fun close games played then it would be obvious he should have laid down some tournament rules to level the playing field if they played the game at all.

I am rather torn since 40k is horrible for pick-up games and it pains me to discourage new players but they need to know just how bad this game can get within the rules.
We can have that talk about TFG and WAAC again (please no!) but we have rules and points costs which is a white-wash for appearing to try to balance the game.
It fails spectacularly.
Designing some scenarios with my friends and adding a few tweaks is a given for 40k so it still works for me in that regard.

Facing strangers at the FLGS on the other hand NO THANK YOU!
Or I am forced to bring the strongest force I can make and either be TFG for the more "casual" gamers or the others used to ROFL-stomping players look at my list and get scared of something that "might" beat theirs and claim = no win scenario.

It's a pretty dickish move imo. Only because it was a noobie tourney. Had it be a regular tourney I would have fully expected it just because I expect everyone to tryhard in them.

you know.. looking at red's location I think I might know the shop this happened at, unless there were two shops in OK that ran a 750 newbie tournament this past weekend. If it is, that makes me sad as the owner is a great guy and almost everyone I've met have been very likable.

*seems I wasn't very clear in the last part of the post. I'm frowning on someone bring a knight to the noobie tourney. I'm also familiar with owner of the shop this happened at and I'm sure the reason he didn't specify any rules against superheavies is because he was expecting well.. noobie lists or fluffy lists, not superheavies.

What if someone starts a knight army and never played a knight army before. Wouldn't it make him a noob knight player and fully eligible to join a noob tournament?

Most users on Dakka have been in the game for several editions, and have seen the introduction of superheavies progressively at lower and lower points games.
Experience has told them that superheavies are something that belong in higher points games, and are units that can dominate in lower point settings.
Because of this they are quick to call the player a TFG. If he genuinely knew what he was doing, then this label is justifiable.

That said, if the guy was genuinely a new player using his new codex IK army (which is totally legal and sold alongside all the other codices for use in normal games of 40k), and simply wanted to play a game, then really it is the fault of the TO for allowing superheavies, or GW for selling codex: superheavy walkers to be used against other armies at any level of play.

To be fair, I have never played a single game of 40k but I do own an imperial knight. Yes, I would bring it to my first match, only due to reading about some of the meta going on.

a knight has no actual place in a beginner tournament, as the players are trying to learn the rules.

in a small tournament a Knight interacts with few of the rules, and does not give new players the chance to really see many of the rules. It is immune to a large amount of basic weapons, so new players will not really be rolling dice or performing actions for many units- this is not helping them learn the game.

It is immune to a lot of psychic powers, and does not use any itself so it is not helping new players get used to the game.

It is immune to morale and has no interaction there.

It doesn't 'scale' well. Yes you can have an all knight army, however they are pretty rare and often do not win larger point games, as in larger point games often objectives determine the winner and armies have things that can counter/ignore knights whereas in a small game this is not the case often.

That said it was the TOs fault for not setting guidelines to prevent something like this, not the player.

None of this would be an issue if GW had kept the % restrictions they used to have when I played. (no more than 25% of your points could be spent on heavy support, etc.)

*edit*
Maybe that would be the best way to go when setting up the next beginner's tourney? That would also kind-of guide the beginner on how to build a balanced army and as they learn and gain more experience they could then tailor their army to their play-style and likes.

Playing against (and losing to) more skilled players is a great way to learn any game. Getting your dark vengeance starter army stomped by a knight is not though.