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My opponent's list usually looks like this:
ML2 Libby
1x DW cmnd squad
1x DW knights
1x DW termies
2x TAC
Firestorm redoubt

I've been running a fluffy word bearers list
Crimson slaughter
Winged DP
ML3 sorc
9xpossessed
10x csm marines
16xcultists
Heldrake
LR
2xoblits

We got purge the alien, his redoing took three wounds off my dp in turn one. I tried to use my MoK+icon possesed to take or his knights, did not work. After that they took out my cultists and the rest if my army. My biggest issue us what to do against deathwing? They seem to steamroll me every time.

Vindicators and more Obliterators?

Give your DP the black mace and Daemon of Nurgle, and run him in glide mode, 2+ jinking his way to combat. He'll handle a squad a turn, just keep him away from the knights if they haven't popped their smite mode.

Really it's basically just about bringing lots of cheap pie plates. I'm honestly going to recommend the forge fiend here as he can drop plates like its hot and when he does he's going to make them hurt a lot.

A defiler is also an interesting choice cause battle cannon makes them go splat too

I'm just learning 7th right now, can you explain how I get a 2+ jink on the dp? Also the ectoplasm are ap2, ideally that would be better than the ap3 canon in the defiler for taking down dw right? Am I missing something?

asklepius wrote:
I'm just learning 7th right now, can you explain how I get a 2+ jink on the dp?

As a FMC he can Jink if targeted by incoming fire gaining a 4+ cover save. Being a Nurgle Daemon grants him Shrouding which adds +2 to your cover saves

asklepius wrote:
Also the ectoplasm are ap2, ideally that would be better than the ap3 canon in the defiler for taking down dw right? Am I missing something?

You are correct. The only thing you could say in favor of the Defilers cannon is it would cancel out FNP if they had it and failed an armor save (Still not an effective choice though.)

I have had great results with 10 berzerkers and either kharn or a dark apostle...kharn being the better choice obviously but still.

when a friend runs 5 (or so) dw knights and belial , it's usually whoever charges first that will come out on top. Either way though, the survivors won't be much use anymore. Assuming there are any. Regardless who charges.

As mentioned, the black mace DP does horrible horrible things to infantry. But you will lose your dp if they can smite, which isn't so bad against zerkers.

Otherwise all you really have is weight of fire with some buffs/debuffs from a sorcerer or so. I still don't think the forgefiend is all that great, considering all the storm shields.

What would be the advantage to bringing the dark apostle? Obviously kharn has a lot of killing power, but if you could illuminate the pros of the DA, that would help me a lot, especially as a word bearers army. Also, could my possessed fill the same role as the berserkers? Also, for weight of fire, I have three oblits, a LR, and 10 man csm squad with two plasmas, what should I supplement with? Do I need to?

asklepius wrote:
What would be the advantage to bringing the dark apostle? Obviously kharn has a lot of killing power, but if you could illuminate the pros of the DA, that would help me a lot, especially as a word bearers army. Also, could my possessed fill the same role as the berserkers? Also, for weight of fire, I have three oblits, a LR, and 10 man csm squad with two plasmas, what should I supplement with? Do I need to?

the current codex is about to go out the window in favor of a new one but here are the cons and pros of the current codex on the shelf:

Incredible unit synergy units can mesh together very naturally into a united fighting force. Teamwork of units within the dark Angels codex is very strong indeed.

Preferred enemy csm, against you this might not seem like a big problem but it is. Re rolls of any kind hurt a bucket full and can really wear you down after a while

Good isolated cc units like the deathwing Knights, we also have the best fast attack choice in the imperial armies the ravenwing black Knights. Simply put they run circles around the competition literally.

We have an above average chaplain and our terminators can shoot from deep strike better than other marines can (but this isn't saying much terminators generally heave horrible shooting anyway their a cc unit at heart).

Our veterans have the cheapest access to a 3+ invul in the known Galaxy. Just 10 points and you have an invul as good as some hq choices.

Lots of aoe save shenanigans including fnp, shrouded, and an invul (though the invul is the worst of the bunch)


Here are some cons:

-We have the worst air power in the game, the neph and dt are god awful

-Our unique land speeder vengeance is rubbish, it kills itself before it fires it's gun more than twice

-Vs regular marines we pay out the army for many units they get for considerably cheaper like librarians in power

-Our hero hq's are actually god awful at everything that isn't breathing and holding still for their paint applications.

-lots of players are dead set on massed bikes or massed terminators this makes them hopelessly predictable, terminator heavy armies means you often (army dependant) can just flood the board and he's stuffed. As he cant table you. Initial strike for him is key, if he hasn't made much of a dent in you in your opening turns and as long as you nip the terminators in the bud as they arrive he's basically doomed. Terminators also drop to sheer volume of fire like flies. Cultist auto guns can waste terminators given enough volume. Terminators also can be wiped out with ap2 weapons in bulk. Terminators also suck when their in a tar out unit like a big ol mess of cultists, or plague toads (sometimes called nurglings)

Another change is do is drop the drake, he's fairly useless against terminators.

And now that I dwell on it you have access to vindicators right? They would also mess up terminators pretty bad. As now he's forced to make a 5+ save. And if you drop it on belials head it instagibs him if he fails his 4 or 3+ save. It's also good at crushing fortifications.

asklepius wrote:
What would be the advantage to bringing the dark apostle? Obviously kharn has a lot of killing power, but if you could illuminate the pros of the DA, that would help me a lot, especially as a word bearers army. Also, could my possessed fill the same role as the berserkers? Also, for weight of fire, I have three oblits, a LR, and 10 man csm squad with two plasmas, what should I supplement with? Do I need to?

The Dark Apostle gives you zealot, so all those attacks you get on the from rage you get to reroll. Theoretically you could get hatred on your warlord which would do the same thing but that's banking on a lucky roll. Kharn happens to always have hatred, and he's also brutal on the charge. In the case of crimson slaughter the Dark Apostle could also give zealot to other nearby units with the relic though. The only benefit apart from the relic is that they are cheaper than kharn, but not by much. But if you mange to use the zealot bubble on more than 1 squad I'd say that easily makes up for kharn hitting harder. That's going to be difficult though. I guess if your handing out gifts, then it's nice to have an apostle around too. kharn can't do that.

If you take the crimson slaughter possesed with mark of khorne and banner, then they're slightly better than the zerkers but also something like 100 points more expensive. If you do manage to get rending however, they become much better. Of course for those 100 points you could almost take a sorcerer for extra buffs or make your DP a psyker. so it's really up to you I guess. If you could enfeeble them, then the prince doesn't get insta gibbed anymore. and thanks to nurgle you kinda get two chances for that which would also stack. Then again...more luck. (it would also stack for the black mace cursed effect)

As for weight of fire, that's kinda hard to say. If you manage to focus, then sure. The oblits could soften them up form a distance with plasma cannons. Those oblits are probably going to be quite important over the course of the game.
Not sure if you have Imperial Armour 13, but I'd probably take a dreadclaw over the land raider for the possesed. It stands a good chance of surviving your opponents first turn, for a turn 2 assault at half the price. then maybe squeeze in a forgefiend?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ionusx
The drake will be helpful againt the bikes though, considering they're skilled riders. That alone might be reason enough to include it.

Though depending on what he takes on the prince, it might make sense to drop the drake and take a burning brand on the prince instead. Ofc course with both, that 3+ side of the DA army will be gone pretty darn fast.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
**edit..re read the list. If your not expecting bikers, then yea. The heldrake is probably a bit over the top. I'd trade it with a forgefiend.

Okay, so I'm thinking of running something like this:

1500 pts, CSM W/ CS allies
CSM primary

DP , MoN, black mace, wings

15x cultists

10x csm marines, 2x plasma gun

LR w/ dozer blade

Vindicator w/ siege shield

3x oblits

Allies crimson slaughter

Dark apostle w/ prophet of the voices

9x possessed w/ MoK, icon of wrath

I've got lots of fire support, and a squad for close combat, DA for zealot, and the black mace DP to mess up termies. Thoughts?

you have your heart set on the Possessed? You can get a lot more bang for your buck with something else

Yes, they are lorgar's chosen.

I think the problems aren't with your list but maybe how you are trying to handle the terms. Focus the crap out of units. Or pick out the important ones. Such as the Knights. Anything that could ruin your day you need to get rid of asap. And with you being able to drop a AP2 pie plate on a squad and then follow it up with plasma cannons you should eliminate a squad a turn. Using the possessed and deamon prince to mop up. While your cultists charge a unit of terms just to hold them up. Your list should do fairly well against them. I would just suggest getting rid of one squad at a time. To limit his options

Thank you everyone!

You might want to consider trading the vindicator siege shield for a secondary weapon or a mark of khorne on the apostle.

The weapon helps with weapon destroyed, so it doesn't become paperweight after the first weapon destroyed. Your opponent doe'st seem to have an awful lot of ranged anti tank though so you might be able to go without.

Also maybe change the detachments and put the prince and the cultists or marines into an allied detachment. Don't forget you get fear just for being crimson slaughter. Also the crimson slaughter warlord traits could prove to be a huge boon on the possessed unit. if you roll maelstrom, there i s a good chance they will fail their fear test. Suddenly they will only hit you on 5's ! nvm. I'm an idiot. I forgot they are fearless.

If you give the apostle the mark, he gets rage and can benefit from the banner too, as you need the mark of khorne for that.
That way he'd get 5 attacks that wound on a 2+ and possibly rending from the voices. Vs 4 that wound on 3+ ( on the knights anyway).

Something I've been wondering though, is how well they would do footslogging it. Does anybody have any experience with crimson slaughter possessed that footslog? Between shrouded and a 3+ invuln they should be relatively safe, and if you roll beasts they can cover ground pretty well.

Instead of taking a land raider. I mean you can do a lot with 230 points. Even if you take some of those to add more ablative wound on the possessed. Especially with the crimson slaughter warlord traits. Since that might give you shrouded beasts (possibly).

I think the idea of the mark on the apostle is stellar. I'm picking up the vindicator on Saturday. I will let you guys know how it goes. Also, thanks for the tactics tips, for sure I have not been been focusing as much as I should have been. I can't wait to put this new list into use, thanks again.

Always used Kharn+Khorne Chosen with Meltas+Axes, never had a DA Termi that survived Kharn's charge.

Also Termies units are limited to 5 models, use the weight of numbers to force saturation, if a 5 man squand is reduced to 2-3 models, it really gimps their fighting potential.

Khorne CSM are ideal for that job, they have nearly has many attacks as there is termies per model, can still give them Plasma guns and Meltas and the Icon for Furious Charge and the underestimated +1 in combat result that might save your guys arses to not flee at the crucial moment.

Another way to go around would be Primary Crimson Slaugther/Allies Khorne Deamonkin, and get a cheap Herald with the Hatred privelege and put the guy in the CSM squad( since KDK deamons are fearless and not unstable).

Well I suppose in this case, the apostle is there for fluff reasons. As in, I don't really see what he could remove to make space for the herald other than the apostle.

Chosen with plasmas should kill termies quick.

drop the raider and take more oblits for plasma cannons or lascannon

"quick", don't forget they probably all have storm shields.

In addition to the knights, he has a few more shields sprinkled in the other DW units. And I think I really need the raider to make sure the possessed actually make it into combat. The apostle and the possessed are there for fluff reasons.

With crimson slaughter, I find draznicht's ravagers geared up with plasma is almost always worth it with Preferred Enemy all but negating Gets Hot.

I won! I can say that focus firing on each unit and working the 2+ cover save on my DP really helped. The vindicator pulled it's weight and popped almost a whole unit of DW termies. It was not looking good at the start, but as his DW units started to lose models the odds were in my favor, I gave him a unit of cultists for fodder, and flooded my deployment zone so he couldn't deep strike in my backfield. Thank you to everyone, rematch next week!