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This is a poll for do you allow rule of cool to take precedence over WYSIWYG at a tournament?

Scenario 1: Tyranid Hive Tyrant, I love the Boneswords that come with the kit so put 2 bonesword arms on (and wings of course). Yet when I play the HT its always as a dakkafex. Would you allow this or at a tournament would you speak up.

Scenario 2: I hate the look of a Dark Eldar Kabalite Warrior with Dark Lance so modelled them with Splinter Cannons. I am taking a 5 man squad of Trueborn with 2 Dark Lances but will be using the Splinter Cannon models.

Problems with either of those?

The Tyranid codex being written to the point that loadouts are almost universally no brainers would lead me to be fine with that.

As long as all Lances are being modeled as Splinter Cannons so I don't have to keep track of which units are proxys or not I'd be fine with that too.

*Edit* Didn't read the OP carefully. Those answers are my personal preferences. If this is for a Tournament it's up to the TO to decide how stringent WYSIWYG is for their event.

For something to qualify as "rule of cool" it has to actually be cool. Merely assembling your model with a different weapon isn't an awesome conversion, it's just a model that isn't WYSIWYG. You might still be allowed to use it, but it would be as a proxy model equivalent to the cardboard box with "Rhino" written on it.

"So long as it's easily identifiable" is the real thing I'm interested in. If I had never seen a Dark Lance before in my life, I'd have no way of knowing that your Splinter Cannon looks any different, so that's not an issue to me. I see a guy holding a gun either way, and so long as all the Dark Lances look pretty much the same (in this case, everything looks like a Splinter Cannon but is a Dark Lance), then I'd be fine with it.

However, if I see a model carrying swords, and you're telling me that they're guns, then I know that's not right. I would not allow that and wouldn't want to see that in tournaments. Same with Scenario #2, BUT ONLY IF you have some units with Splinter Cannons that are Dark Lances, but other Splinter Cannons are Splinter Cannons... then there's too much room for confusion. I did not respond to the poll, because it was too one way or the other.

So your saying Rule of Cool isnt in the eye of the owner? Personal dislikes dont qualify something as not cool?

In a competitive (and timed) environment, I'd think that it's important for your opponent to know exactly what's he's facing without having to memorize what your units 'really' are equipped with.

I mean, generally, I don't have any issues with proxies, and I'm not much of a tournament player myself, but most tournaments are probably going to be pretty stringent on allowing proxies.

As an individual, I don’t have a problem with them. But if a TO is enforcing WYSWYG rules, then an issue arrises.

I’m very hang loose. If you’ve got a few counts-as or proxies, I don’t mind. I’d prefer you to keep the number of things I need to keep track of to three or less. I’d not turn you into the TO unless there was something else going on.

 Yarium wrote:
"So long as it's easily identifiable" is the real thing I'm interested in. If I had never seen a Dark Lance before in my life, I'd have no way of knowing that your Splinter Cannon looks any different, so that's not an issue to me. I see a guy holding a gun either way

I pretty much fall into this category. I don't know what every gun looks like so as long as there's no confusion it doesn't matter. I guess I'd think differently if I was used to strict WYSIWYG and knew what every common gun looked like - unless you said otherwise, I'd assume your true born had cannons, and even then I'd have to constantly remind myself.

In terms of the poll, I couldn't really vote because there's no option for "I don't care as long as it isn't confusing".

IMO neither of those is rule of cool. To be cool it has to be agreed upon to be cool by more people than yourself, ie I would also have to find it interesting to look at. I am not going to be impressed by splinter cannons and bone swords from the box without any additional work or conversions. Most players have seen thousands of such models and weapon load outs.

The reason things are WYSIWYG in a tournament is not just so people can tell models apart in your list. It is to decrease the mental burden on both players so they don't have to ask you every movement phase if that unit has splinter cannons or dark lances.

Now if you had a full on conversion with your own unique work on the model and it is an impressive looking model then I am all for it. Heck my axe of blind fury Khorne lord is a chaos cult style bullgryn on a harlie with a giant axe, people love him and it is obvious what he is.

Yeah, I feel that neither of those are rule of cool issues. I'd prefer the WYSIWYG options represented, but if its consistently applied and recognizable, I'll still play it.

Rule of Cool is more about the rules allow you to take a pistol and a CCW, in a unit where everyone else has a pistol and CCW, but have this really sweet pair of daggers you want to outfit the model with. No rule allows that build, but Rule of Cool let's you play it. Typically as the most similar build - in that case it'd be Pistol + CCW.

in the case of a Tyrant, if they were allowed up to 4 weapons, but you thought it'd look awesome to model it with 8 Boneswords, then you model it that way, and play it as the most similar option - 4xBoneswords.

You can still model it with four Boneswords, and field it as a Dakkafex, but then you're proxying equipment, not just using the Rule of Cool. Fine with me, model what looks awesome. But its not Rule of Cool.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TLDR: generally Rule of Cool trumps all, but this is a Proxy instead.

 Peregrine wrote:
For something to qualify as "rule of cool" it has to actually be cool. Merely assembling your model with a different weapon isn't an awesome conversion, it's just a model that isn't WYSIWYG. You might still be allowed to use it, but it would be as a proxy model equivalent to the cardboard box with "Rhino" written on it.

This. Also, the poll is misleading for the actual topic.

Rule of Cool and WYSIWYG are not mutually exclusive. In point of fact WYSIWYG'ing something awesome is the Rule of Cool.

SJ

It's up to the TO. I let stuff slide if it's reasonable.

Rule of Cool has to be more than just the owner of the model thinking its cool. There has to be at some point a standard of coolness that most must agree upon. Also, there still must be some relevance to what you're trying to field.

Otherwise I could say that I think Chaos Daemon models are cooler than Eldar models, but I want to use Eldar rules. so all these chaos daemons are actually Eldar. That's proxying, and thats what you're doing with your current models. Saying, i know he looks like he is equipped with a legal build, but he actually has a different set of weapons.

As long as you only have one or two proxies in your lists then it should be fine, but again its up to the TO. I would try to get as close to WYSIWYG as possible. That tends to make it universally cooler than just saying this guy with this one gun is actually using the rules for another gun.

Usually the Rule of Cool comes in when a model is equipped with something that he would never be able to use. Or you're using a non-GW model. Conversions and whatnot.

 Peregrine wrote:
For something to qualify as "rule of cool" it has to actually be cool. Merely assembling your model with a different weapon isn't an awesome conversion, it's just a model that isn't WYSIWYG. You might still be allowed to use it, but it would be as a proxy model equivalent to the cardboard box with "Rhino" written on it.

Shouldnt that be a Metal Box,not a Cardboard one?
THE COWERDS!,THE FEWLS,THEY HIDE IN THEIR METAL BAWKSES!

My cousin modeled his GK terminators with falchions with darth M style blades instead, his Coteaz was a female own sculpt based on female plastic guardian legs and own resculpted face, legs weapons and his falcon was a hand sculpted servo skull. I am ok with such counts as, when it doesn't confuse people, but when a heavy bolter is a plasma gun in one game and a flamer in another, then I am not happy with it.

I'm not trying to rain on the proverbial parade here, but you have modeled your models with weapons that are actually something else in the game from the same codex, and that can be very confusing to an opponent.

A tournament player would see a Flyrant with Bone Swords, which exists as an armed unit in the game, but you are using it as a Carnifex with (a) two TL Devourers and (b) no wings. However, your model doesn't have weapons that shoot, and does have wings. The Bone Swords and Wings are indicators that let your opponent know how the unit has been kitted. I can see casual games letting it slide, but I imagine tournament players might object.

I don't know enough about Dark Eldar to comment on that example. In general, a rule of thumb for conversions is to differentiate the weapons from other different weapons in the same squad, and I'd go so far as to say the whole army.

After looking through..It's simply not a rule of cool issue, especially for the Tyrant.

I could make a captain with a thunder hammer (I love those things) and jump pack because it looks awesome, but say he has no jump pack, and instead has a plasma cannon (or plasma gun, or whatever he can take). That's not going to be acceptable in anything other than very friendly games.

Generally speaking, if something could be easily confused (having "dark lance" splinter cannons AND actual splinter cannons in your army) then I'd say no. Or, if you are insistent and we lose track during the game then you take the penalty for neither of us remembering which is which.

If it's something like "I want to use 3 Land Raiders, but only have 2 normal ones and a Crusader. Can all 3 just count as regular ones for this game?" then I'm fine with it.

As said though, for tournaments expect people not to be so forgiving.

 Peregrine wrote:
For something to qualify as "rule of cool" it has to actually be cool.

dat

For the most part Conversions, or REALLLY well painted models, or vintage models that dont normally have those options id let pass.

Then again i normally dont have issues with WYSIWYG. Tournaments are a different issue though.

I'd disagree with the model actually needing to be "cool". I would say it needs to be *intended*, but not necessarily achieved.

I have a Harlequin model driving a halbred home on a downward thrust/push. His other hand doesn't have a pistol. I thought it was a cool idea. I get the impression that most people think its meh (not bad, but not good). Even though it fails the 'cool' standard, I would argue it's what Rule of Cool was meant for.

Similarly, my Exodite Wraithlord is on a WHFB base (doesn't quite fit the oval base, far too long for the official circular base). I love it, but seem to be the only one (in my gallery if you're curious). It has the same approximate mass as a WL, and clearly the closest analauge in the CWE 'Dex is the Wraithlord, but outside Rule of Cool, wouldn't be acceptable RAW. Rule of Cool allows me to play it, provided my opponent doesn't *dis*like it. A much lower standard than 'Cool' (Exodites are jarring to some, so aren't always OK anyways).

(I still agree that the situation stated is a Proxy, not Rule of Cool, though.)

Rule of cool is using a fantasy dragon with mechanical parts and armor plates, with LED in the eyes and mouth, tearing apart a Valk in mid flight and use it as a Heldrake.

Or Convert a Super bike in Akira style, with a Huge engine in it and a skull with horns with the Lord on it and use it as a Juggernaut.

Merely using another piece of equipement because you don't like how it looks-while been perfectly true in some cases- is just non-wyswig/proxying as far as tournament is concerned.

Another exemple of Rule of Cool is using this;



instead of this:

Bharring wrote:
I'd disagree with the model actually needing to be "cool". I would say it needs to be *intended*, but not necessarily achieved.

I have a Harlequin model driving a halbred home on a downward thrust/push. His other hand doesn't have a pistol. I thought it was a cool idea. I get the impression that most people think its meh (not bad, but not good). Even though it fails the 'cool' standard, I would argue it's what Rule of Cool was meant for.

Similarly, my Exodite Wraithlord is on a WHFB base (doesn't quite fit the oval base, far too long for the official circular base). I love it, but seem to be the only one (in my gallery if you're curious). It has the same approximate mass as a WL, and clearly the closest analauge in the CWE 'Dex is the Wraithlord, but outside Rule of Cool, wouldn't be acceptable RAW. Rule of Cool allows me to play it, provided my opponent doesn't *dis*like it. A much lower standard than 'Cool' (Exodites are jarring to some, so aren't always OK anyways).

(I still agree that the situation stated is a Proxy, not Rule of Cool, though.)

Well its not the Rule of Participation or trying now is it

During a tournament I absolutely expect WYSIWYG. I go out of my way to purchase or model all of the correct equipment and I expect that same courtesy from my opponent(s).

I can certainly understand preferring the look of A over the look of B, but that doesn't change the fact that A is not B and telling me that A is B will still not make it the case.

The one exception I see to this is for an older metal model that has had its equipment changed or something of the sort. For example, if someone wanted to use old DE incubi models with the gun hats, I know the current rules for incubi do not give them ranged weapons, so I'm fine with that because no one altered those models to be confusing; they're merely older models that would have to be permanently damaged in order to be WYSIWYG.

Also, Rule of Cool is kind of a misnomer here. Rule of Cool to me is using a non standard model that has been converted with a fair bit of effort to stand in for something else, that, while it might affect game play to a point, is pretty awesome looking. Rule of Cool is not simply using standard weapon A for standard weapon B.

The rule of cool is primarily about whether to allow someone to use a scratchbuild or kitbashed model or not. I envision the rule of cool as letting someone use a scratchbuilt/kitbashed model that was modelled with the appropriate weapons and size for what they'll be using it for. It's like when people make Kabalite Trueborn using helmets from warhammer fantasy battles on the basic Kabalite body. That's a kitbash, and totally falls under allowance from the rule of cool(imo). In a tournament, I'd allow them, but I'd expect them to be modelled with whatever weapons they're using.

I actually use the rule of cool as a litmus test to decide if an opponent I've never played before is TFG or not. When I go to a tournament with my Dark Eldar, I have a model that's a converted Duke Sliscus. I used parts from several different kits and some green stuff to give him a cool greatcloak/duster. Since Duke Sliscus isn't a thing any more, I will often use this model as an Archon with Agonizer and Blast Pistol(I only take the pistol because it's modelled that way). Before starting a match with my opponent, I'll tell them about, and show them my conversion, asking them if they mind if I use him for my archon. 90% of the people I've played against have always been totally cool with it, but when I run into a guy that's not, without fail, he's a TFG hoping that I didn't have a substitute, which I always do. I always keep a vanilla archon with a blast pistol and agonizer on hand, just in case.

It helps to know right at the start whether you're playing hardball or not. Now, that being said, sometimes the people who have allowed it have also been TFGs and rules lawyers who seemed more interested in arguing than playing games, but if they didn't allow it, they always were.

I agree that your poll is misleading. And WTF is with the third option? I have no problem with proxies, Mark of Dave all the way, but just be consitant with them. As was said before, don't have some splinter cannons bedakr lances, and some be splinter cannons.

This!
Your cases are plain proxxying as the things you glued on are part that specifically signify some other equipment. Rule of cool is to kitbash or model your own gun and then use it as a darklance. As long as it is somewhat similar to a dark lance or what it is supposed to represent.

ask your local meta, we can make our opinions known but what matters at the end of the day is weather your local or regular opponents care

How cool is "cool"?