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A friend of mine let me borrow the first two Horus Heresy books as I am trying to figure out how best to organize a bunch of Space Marines I got off of someone leaving the game. Although I've played against 30k armies with 40k armies before, this is the first time I've been able to sit down and study the 30k rules. What immediately strikes me is that this game, when played 30k vs 30k at least, should be a wonderfully balanced game. With the exception of the Ad Mech rules, which I have not yet read, all Marine armies are drawing from the same choices of Org Charts, and the same list of unit options. The legion-specific rules, units, wargear, Primarchs, and Rites of War are different enough to give each Legion very nice flavor, but are not so impactful IME that they would imbalance the game terribly.

So I kind of wonder why people who love the 40k universe, but think 40k has gone to gak because of codex imbalance, aren't playing this game, or at least more vocally considering it as an alternative to 40k's other TT competitors.

investment and the variety I would imagine. 30k is (thus far) just the humes. 40k has a myriad of different races. I know that's the main reason I only have a passing interest in 30k adn even then it's purely the novels

Xenos, that's why.

Word. As a Necron and Tyranid player, I understand the lack of Xenos being a drawback.

Our gaming group has a couple guys with 30k armies, and they trot them out against 40k armies semi-regularly, and nobody minds....however, this doesn't do anything for the lack of balance amongst the 40k Xenos codices, obviously, except IME make Space Marines a little more capable of handling the other codices.

Aside from the lack of xenos, it's also quite a bit more expensive.

Yeah, but GW are working on solving that problem!

I'd actually hold up 30k as an excellent example of exactly why I don't want that level of balance.

Internal balance within a codex so you have reason to take every unit? Yes.

Nothing quite so extreme as readily avaliable D weaponry on sub-400 point models? Yes.

True balance between factions at the obvious cost that would have of everything being very simmilar? Ugh, no.

Works for a Marine vs Marine brawl campaign, doesn't work for a broad range of varied army lists.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Aside from the lack of xenos, it's also quite a bit more expensive.

Forgeworld armies aren't meant to be bought...they're meant to be converted! Or something like that.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Yeah, but GW are working on solving that problem!

Hahaha, good point! More expensive as of June 2015, for if someone finds this thread in a few months

changemod wrote:
True balance between factions at the obvious cost that would have of everything being very simmilar? Ugh, no.

I guess I don't see too much of a difference here between the 40k Space Marine codex and the 30k codex. In 40k, Chapter Tactics make each chapter a little bit different, but they are still drawing from the same army list. I guess White Scars have a distinct advantage here with Bikers-as-Troops, and Iron Warriors allow you to build a fluffy mech list, but at least in my opinion, fighting against one chapter is otherwise pretty much the same as fighting against any other Chapter.

I'm not familiar enough with Dark Angels and Blood Angels to know how different they are from vanilla Marines...Space Woves IME do seem fairly distinct.

As for the jumbled mess that is the CSM codex, I'm not sure comparisons can be made here, because entire Legions with all their history of varied units presented in 30k are boiled down to a single Elites choice, along with other unit choices stamped with Marks. This in fact is why I became interested in 30k. IMO, its not really possible to create much of a unique army out of 1 unit type and a bunch of Marks, and my interest in creating a Dinobot army is limited.

30K is only balanced because it's more of a mirror matchup than regular 40k.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
30K is only balanced because it's more of a mirror matchup than regular 40k.

That helps, but it's not the only reason.

No Necrons.

 Sigvatr wrote:
No Necrons.

From a fluff perspective anyways, I guess I don't see why anyone would have a problem with people playing with or against Necrons or Tyranids in 30k games. If a Tomb World woke up early, or a Hivefleet hit the Milky Way early, I'm not sure why they'd be any different rules-wise in 30k as they are in 40k, from a fluff perspective.

There's actually some crazy broken stuff in 30k, I wouldn't necessarily call it more balanced.

 DarkLink wrote:
There's actually some crazy broken stuff in 30k, I wouldn't necessarily call it more balanced.

Is the crazy broken stuff you're talking about Legion-specific, or is it something in the common army list?

Nothing Legion-specific has jumped out at me as being overly broken, but I haven't had the material for more than a couple days now to study in depth (and I haven't even looked at the Ad Mech portion of the books at all).

Why not just play 40K with only the Space Marine Codex allowed?

Same basic concept, same miniatures (incl. the FW-ones, if you want), cheaper books, even more balanced.

Wonderwolf wrote:
Why not just play 40K with only the Space Marine Codex allowed?

Same basic concept, same miniatures (incl. the FW-ones, if you want), cheaper books, even more balanced.

It actually seems to me like the current Space Marine codex is pretty poorly internally balanced. Bikers as Troops is way too big of an advantage IME, and Iron Warriors keeping machinery alive very easily is also a notable advantage, with an added 6+ FNP IIRC.

I'm not sure I have all the Chapter Tactics memorized, but every time I read them, it seems to me that White Scars have the best rules, followed by Iron Warriors, followed by everything else. You'd still have that tier-imbalance wiht 40k v. 40k Space Marines. No special Legion rules seem to me to have that level of advantage over the others. However, as stated I'm new to the 30k rules, so maybe there is some stuff in there.

Wonderwolf wrote:
Why not just play 40K with only the Space Marine Codex allowed?

Same basic concept, same miniatures (incl. the FW-ones, if you want), cheaper books, even more balanced.

Less variety, less legions represented.

So I just read over the rules for Tactical Support Squads and Heavy Support Squads, and what a mess of confusion it is! I suppose its nice to see that poor technical English is not peculiar trait to the 40k writers!

Here's a gem:

The squad's sergeant may take any of the following...Exchange their (sic) heavy bolter for a Nuncio-vox and chainsword or combat blade.

So I can take a nuncio-vox and a chainsword, or I can take a combat blade with no nuncio-vox? Or I can take a nuncio-vox and either a chainsword or a combat blade. Words, people! When superglue is involved, USE YOUR WORDS!!!!

(rant over)

Chess is even more balanced, but really lacking in fluff and options tbh. They only have Black Legion and White Scars.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
No Necrons.

From a fluff perspective anyways, I guess I don't see why anyone would have a problem with people playing with or against Necrons or Tyranids in 30k games. If a Tomb World woke up early, or a Hivefleet hit the Milky Way early, I'm not sure why they'd be any different rules-wise in 30k as they are in 40k, from a fluff perspective.

It would be really weird for a Tomb World waking up 10.000 years (roughly) before the others did and there being no recordings of it. What would be really interesting however is that The Void Dragon was still out there

 ChazSexington wrote:
Chess is even more balanced, but really lacking in fluff and options tbh. They only have Black Legion and White Scars.

I prefer Pong for game balance, but even there I bet the person who goes first has a statistical advantage...and it's White Scars only.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
No Necrons.

From a fluff perspective anyways, I guess I don't see why anyone would have a problem with people playing with or against Necrons or Tyranids in 30k games. If a Tomb World woke up early, or a Hivefleet hit the Milky Way early, I'm not sure why they'd be any different rules-wise in 30k as they are in 40k, from a fluff perspective.

It would be really weird for a Tomb World waking up 10.000 years (roughly) before the others did and there being no recordings of it. What would be really interesting however is that The Void Dragon was still out there

You could always explain the "early Tomb World" away as suppressed information. But in any case, I do recognize there's no real rules support for Xenos armies in 30k. Just since they both use the exact same 40k gaming system, it can happen technically, and if I get this army going, I'd have no problem playing against an "early" Xenos incursion, or using some "Forge the Narrative" to get my 30k army into the 40k universe. Either/or happens all the time in my gaming group against a 30k Marine and a 30k Ad Mech army.

 jasper76 wrote:
So I can take a nuncio-vox and a chainsword, or I can take a combat blade with no nuncio-vox?

Is this a serious question?

The option looks pretty clear to me.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
So I can take a nuncio-vox and a chainsword, or I can take a combat blade with no nuncio-vox?

Is this a serious question?

The option looks pretty clear to me.

(Rant back on)

Dead serious. Read that exerpt again. If I didn't know that a chainsword and a combat blade where equivalent, I might read this and think a combat blade is better, because it doesn't come with a Nuncio-vox. Then I'd have to look up the stats for a chainsowrd (in a different book, of course), then realize they are equivalents and go to a place like YMDC and ask why I can only take a Nuncio-vox with a chainsword and not a combat blade.

All of which could be prevented with one word: either.

This kind of sloppy English drives me mad in technical writing, and the shame should be felt in triplicate by the editor, because he or she is presumably native to the island that spawned the language.

(Rant off)

Sure, it's a typo, just like the 'heavy bolter' part. But as long as the RAI is this crystal clear, it's a non-issue in practice.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Sure, it's a typo, just like the 'heavy bolter' part. But as long as the RAI is this crystal clear, it's a non-issue in practice.

Fair enough. I'll put the rant back on if and when I run into an instance if RAI isn't crystal clear....or better yet just post it to YMDC for the sharks.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Sure, it's a typo, just like the 'heavy bolter' part. But as long as the RAI is this crystal clear, it's a non-issue in practice.

It's still one of those things.

More expensive than 40k. ( a true feat)
Less variety.
You can have any army you want as long as its space marines.

 MWHistorian wrote:
More expensive than 40k. ( a true feat)
Less variety.
You can have any army you want as long as its space marines.

Changing quite rapidly. The different Ordos of the Mechanicum play entirely different from almost any comparison across 30/40k (As a convergence fan I think you'd like what they've done)

The Knight list is very interesting with the different FOC slots changing up how they play. The game being higher points and more destructive in general leads to them not being as absurd as they can be in 40k.

Humanity is gaining more diverse options with every book with there being a Deep Void Stormtrooper heavy list as well as Militia and Warp Cults.

And even when it is Marine on Marine the Legion rules combined with the Rites of War and the fact they didn't follow GW down the rabbit hole of trivializing the FOC means you see a lot more diversity and character from the Astartes.