Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Friend asked me last night about this in preparation for a tournament, and it sounds so crazy insane that I thought there must be something against it... but I can't find anything! Hoping for some guidance after having perused the BRB.

He wants to take a Dark Eldar Archon, give him a Webway Portal, and have him start the game inside a Fortification, and then hold that Fortification in reserves, so the Fortification deploys via Deep Strike. As far as I can tell, this is totally legit, because unlike scenery, a Fortification is taken just like another unit in your army and is deployed at the same time and "in the same fashion" as your army. Now, I think this is hilarious, and I want to see it happen - but common sense tells me otherwise. Still, since when has common sense had anything to do with the rules?

Any help?

Theres a paragragh in the bit about deployment that says something along the lines of any fortification in reserve is automatically destroyed, don't have my rule book on me so can reference it. Remember it from when I was checking if you can Scout buildings.

I'm sure in the background there are instances of bastions being deployed by deep strike, it is certainly how titans arrive on world, so it is in keeping with the fluff.

 JamesY wrote:
I'm sure in the background there are instances of bastions being deployed by deep strike, it is certainly how titans arrive on world, so it is in keeping with the fluff.

Titans arrive on worlds using giant "lifters". They're basically huge transports. Titans definitely don't teleport or drop from orbit. They're too big to teleport (energy requirements would be enormous) and no right thinking techpriest would risk an error. Dropping from orbit would destroy them.

From the Webway Portal rules in Codex Dark Eldar:

If a model with a webway portal is in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves, then the model and any unit it has joined or is embarked upon has the Deep Strike special rule.

Fortifications are not units, they're Battlefield Terrain.

Tell your friend nice try but it doesn't work as you have to place any fortifications on the battlefield before the step of embarking units into them. So you could embark an archon into a bastion, but only after you have placed the bastion during the table set up phase, rendering his webway portal useless.

Titans from Lucius teleport into combat, per the new Skitarii codex.

We see fortifications air-dropped in the HH novels, specifically Iron Warriors at Isstvan.

Rules-wise, though, I'm like "this ugly subject, AGAIN?!?!?!"

At the moment, I would challenge anyone to find a Formation that allows a Fortification to Deep Strike.

SJ

While I've seen a couple of arguments for this, I believe the consensus is that the BRB clearly states when buildings are set up. Since 40K is permissive, then I would argue that your building goes down during deployment, and can't deep strike...

 Kriswall wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
I'm sure in the background there are instances of bastions being deployed by deep strike, it is certainly how titans arrive on world, so it is in keeping with the fluff.

Titans arrive on worlds using giant "lifters". They're basically huge transports. Titans definitely don't teleport or drop from orbit. They're too big to teleport (energy requirements would be enormous) and no right thinking techpriest would risk an error. Dropping from orbit would destroy them.

In false gods, on Davin, titans are deployed via huge drop pods called landers. Lifters are used to return them to orbit. They have massive anti grav devices to slow their descent so not to damage the contents.

 goblinzz wrote:
While I've seen a couple of arguments for this, I believe the consensus is that the BRB clearly states when buildings are set up. Since 40K is permissive, then I would argue that your building goes down during deployment, and can't deep strike...

The only thing is that the spot I found about deploying fortifications is that you deploy them "just like other units in your army", which seemed to imply an option of having them start in reserve. They are most certain units in your army as per the force organization chart, and they have a transport capacity. I agree that it seems crazy - but I just couldn't find anything saying "must be deployed" or "deployed before deploying the rest of your army" or anything similar. Any of those kinds of rules would make it very clear that this doesn't work, but deployed "like other units in your army" is really what seems to be opening this door.

 Yarium wrote:
They are most certain units in your army as per the force organization chart...

Can you provide support for that position? Just because it's on a 'force organization chart' doesn't make it a unit. Battlefield terrain lacks a Unit Type and therefore don't qualify as a 'unit'.

Just fill the table with terrain so he has nowhere to deepstrike it.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
They are most certain units in your army as per the force organization chart...

Can you provide support for that position? Just because it's on a 'force organization chart' doesn't make it a unit. Battlefield terrain lacks a Unit Type and therefore don't qualify as a 'unit'.

I'll double check on this - because that might be what we need to solve this! Thanks!

Oh, and JamesY, it's for a tourney - so no touching of the terrain on the table. I'm actually hoping Ghaz is wrong, because I think him Deep Striking in some huge building out of nowhere is hilarious - and probably still won't be worth the points.

Page 135 BRB, Preparing Reserves. "When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of there units, keeping them as Reserves to deploy later. In addition, if it is impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve. The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed. Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle (pg 132)." However with regards to fortifications and deployment, the BRB says it's perfectly acceptable to rearrange scenery yo fit models in the Deployment zone.

 HANZERtank wrote:
Page 135 BRB, Preparing Reserves. "When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of there units, keeping them as Reserves to deploy later. In addition, if it is impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve. The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed. Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle (pg 132)." However with regards to fortifications and deployment, the BRB says it's perfectly acceptable to rearrange scenery yo fit models in the Deployment zone.

Awww - but that does clear this up VERY concisely. Thanks so much Hanzertank! I've informed my buddy, and he'll have to think of something else for his nefarious Dark Eldar to do.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
They are most certain units in your army as per the force organization chart...

Can you provide support for that position? Just because it's on a 'force organization chart' doesn't make it a unit. Battlefield terrain lacks a Unit Type and therefore don't qualify as a 'unit'.

Actually, being on the force org chart DOES make it a unit. Force org chart slots may only be filled by units. If fortifications are not units, then they cannot be taken in a force org slot.
Additionally:
- Stronghold Assault - "In many respects, these buildings function like any other unit in a player’s army; the major difference is that they can be captured by the enemy"
- Page 130 under fortifications - "If a fortification is taken as part of an army, then it is set up with the rest of the units in the army using the same deployment rules as the other models."
- Page 9 under "Forming a Unit" - "The models that make up your Warhammer 40,000 army must be organized into 'units'." If fortifications can be taken as part of your army, and models in your army MUST be organized into units, then fortifications MUST be units.

If fortifications weren't units, then you would never be able to shoot or charge them, as these actions may only be taken against enemy units.

This concept is under the assumption that the Fortification is a Transport, which would allow the Archon's WWPortal to Deep Strike.

Bojazz wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
They are most certain units in your army as per the force organization chart...

Can you provide support for that position? Just because it's on a 'force organization chart' doesn't make it a unit. Battlefield terrain lacks a Unit Type and therefore don't qualify as a 'unit'.

Actually, being on the force org chart DOES make it a unit. Force org chart slots may only be filled by units. If fortifications are not units, then they cannot be taken in a force org slot.
Additionally:
- Stronghold Assault - "In many respects, these buildings function like any other unit in a player’s army; the major difference is that they can be captured by the enemy"
- Page 130 under fortifications - "If a fortification is taken as part of an army, then it is set up with the rest of the units in the army using the same deployment rules as the other models."
- Page 9 under "Forming a Unit" - "The models that make up your Warhammer 40,000 army must be organized into 'units'." If fortifications can be taken as part of your army, and models in your army MUST be organized into units, then fortifications MUST be units.

If fortifications weren't units, then you would never be able to shoot or charge them, as these actions may only be taken against enemy units.

Sorry, but nothing you've provided say that they're units. They're treated as units for the situations you've listed because the rules specifically say that they do but that doesn't make them units. Please provide written support that says Battlefield Terrain IS a unit.

Actually he proved his case well to me imo

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Actually he proved his case well to me imo

So since a fortification is a unit, it must have a Unit Type. What is the Unit Type for a Bastion of an Aegis Defence Line?

Fortification?

Just like any other unit type that takes up the FOC, Marines being "troops" etc

If it wasnt a unit type then it wouldnt be valid to take it in its designted FOC slot

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Fortification?

Just like any other unit type that takes up the FOC, Marines being "troops" etc

I said 'Unit Type' such as 'Infantry', 'Artillery', 'Beast', 'Monstrous Creature', "Flyer', etc. and not what slot it uses on the Force Organization chart. So again, what Unit Type is a Bastion or Aegis Defence Line?

 Ghaz wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Fortification?

Just like any other unit type that takes up the FOC, Marines being "troops" etc

I said 'Unit Type' such as 'Infantry', 'Artillery', 'Beast', 'Monstrous Creature', "Flyer', etc. and not what slot it uses on the Force Organization chart. So again, what Unit Type is a Bastion or Aegis Defence Line?

As far as memory serves me, their Unit type is usually designated as "Small/medium/large building", at least in the case of the Plasma Obliterator its unit type is "Medium building"

Nowhere does it say that fortifications are treated as units for the purposes of filling out a force organization chart or army selection. So if fortitifications are not units, then since every model in your army MUST be organized into units, and fortifications do not have permission to be counted as units for this anywhere in the rulebook, you may never include a fortification in your army. Clearly this is not the case. fortifications MUST be units if they are able to be fielded at all. Stronghold assault says that they function just like any other unit in the army, except they may be claimed by the enemy. It doesn't say it only acts like a unit in specific scenarios.

Bojazz wrote:
Nowhere does it say that fortifications are treated as units for the purposes of filling out a force organization chart or army selection. So if fortitifications are not units, then since every model in your army MUST be organized into units, and fortifications do not have permission to be counted as units for this anywhere in the rulebook, you may never include a fortification in your army. Clearly this is not the case. fortifications MUST be units if they are able to be fielded at all.

You mean like the Fortification Role Choice in a Combined Arms Detachment?

Can anyone clarify 2 things for me?

Does the Webway Portal address just Transport or what the Character is embarked on?

If Transport, can Fortifications be Transports?

Answering those two questions is more important than if a Fortification is a unit, imo.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Fortification?

Just like any other unit type that takes up the FOC, Marines being "troops" etc

I said 'Unit Type' such as 'Infantry', 'Artillery', 'Beast', 'Monstrous Creature', "Flyer', etc. and not what slot it uses on the Force Organization chart. So again, what Unit Type is a Bastion or Aegis Defence Line?

As far as memory serves me, their Unit type is usually designated as "Small/medium/large building", at least in the case of the Plasma Obliterator its unit type is "Medium building"

Perhaps you should check your facts first. The Plasma Obliterator lists no Unit Type. It instead says "Terrain Type: Medium Building (Armour Value 14)". The same use of "Terrain Type" is used for all entries in Stronghold Assault as well. So how can a Fortification be a unit when it doesn't have a Unit Type?

Charistoph wrote:
Can anyone clarify 2 things for me?

Does the Webway Portal address just Transport or what the Character is embarked on?

If Transport, can Fortifications be Transports?

Answering those two questions is more important than if a Fortification is a unit, imo.

Check my first post in this thread for the exact wording of the Webway Portal.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
They are most certain units in your army as per the force organization chart...

Can you provide support for that position? Just because it's on a 'force organization chart' doesn't make it a unit. Battlefield terrain lacks a Unit Type and therefore don't qualify as a 'unit'.

Pg 134 BRB. Under "Scoring Units"
Any unit can be a scoring unit unless:
-It is a building or fortification that is unclaimed (claimed buildings count as a scoring unit from the claiming player's army).

So, obviously it depends on if it is claimed, but something like a Vengeance Weapon Battery is not only a unit but it can claim and score objectives as well.

Edit to add:
To more directly answer your question see "Battlefield Role" on pg 130, BRB.
However you choose your army, all units have a Battlefield Role, which is typically shown as a symbol.

Looking below fortifications are listed as battlefield role with a symbol, so they are definitely units.

Again, "counts as a scoring unit" does not equal "is a unit for all purposes".

 Ghaz wrote:
Again, "counts as a scoring unit" does not equal "is a unit for all purposes".

Oh jeez, now you're just being a jerk for the sake of it... Buildings whether it 'counts as' or 'is' is utterly irrelevant to this entire debate. Claimed buildings control objectives (the principal reason I love my Vengeance Weapon Battery), and they must be deployed during set up. Beyond that the definition doesn't matter!

This has come up before its permissible to deeptrike a building using the wwp

wwp "If a model with a webway portal is in Reserves or Ongoing Reserves, then the model and any unit it has joined or is embarked upon has the Deep Strike special rule. This model, and his unit, will not scatter if arriving from Deep Strike Reserve."

Building are units
1.• A claimed building is a unit in the controlling player’s army p.112
2.• At the start of the game, all buildings that were taken as part of a player’s army are ‘claimed’ by the owning player.
3.• If a unit enters a building, they immediately capture and claim that building,



Building is a model quotes just a few
1."it will be clearly stated on the models data sheet."p112
2."the building that make up a multi-part building are treated as separate models...." p.112
3. "if the model has armour values"p.183
I could go on but theirs no point.

A building is a model so can go in reserve
(p.132 "Which ever method you use models must ether deploy within the deployment zone or be held in reserve.")

this unit is not automatically destroyed because it can be deployed.
"Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle."

"moving into a building works the same as embarking and disembarking a vehicle" ..."all of the normal rules apply" p.110

your combined unit and ic mounted in building makes it a unit because its then claimed.( this happens in reserve)
the 'combined reserve units' section brb p.135 right hand column allows the wwp carrying character to be embarked in reserve.

It then gains the deep strike rule from the wwp and the rest is history.

This may not have been an intended consequence but it is undeniably allowed under the rules.