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So...same problem as before with this little bugger, yeah?

Infiltrate doesn't confer, you can't join a unit "before" deployment, and so he has to sit by his lonesome.

Yes, the rule is exactly the same. Stupid GW.

I saw this mentioned on GD thread.

How does "units that contain at least one model with this special rule........" not allow shrike and his unit to infiltrate?

 jokerkd wrote:
I saw this mentioned on GD thread.

How does "units that contain at least one model with this special rule........" not allow shrike and his unit to infiltrate?

What unit? He can't join a unit until the infiltrate step (when he deploys) at this point the unit must either already have infiltrate (so he does nothing) or it must have deployed (and therefore it is too late to infiltrate them. This is further compounded by the recent FAQ preventing him from joining any non-infiltrators during deployment...

he can join a unit "before deploying"

Which FAQ are you referring to?

 jokerkd wrote:
he can join a unit "before deploying"

How?

So Shrike is basically just a free victory point waiting to be taken?

 jokerkd wrote:
he can join a unit "before deploying"

Which FAQ are you referring to?

http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Warhammer_40000_Rules_EN.pdf

 insaniak wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
he can join a unit "before deploying"

How?

unless i have a misprint, See, But Remain Unseen states; "Before deploying he may only join units of jump infantry"

yep - but the FAQ forbids him from joining a unit without infiltrate...

 jokerkd wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
he can join a unit "before deploying"

How?

unless i have a misprint, See, But Remain Unseen states; "Before deploying he may only join units of jump infantry"

That sounds like a very clear assumption that he *should* be able to join a unit of Jump Infantry before deploying. But we don't have any rule for Units joining each other before deployment?

 jokerkd wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
he can join a unit "before deploying"

How?

unless i have a misprint, See, But Remain Unseen states; "Before deploying he may only join units of jump infantry"

So he has a choice between using his Infiltrate and being completely alone, or joining a squad of Jump Infantry and invalidating his special abilities. It's like Sophie's Choice.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
he can join a unit "before deploying"

How?

unless i have a misprint, See, But Remain Unseen states; "Before deploying he may only join units of jump infantry"

That sounds like a very clear assumption that he *should* be able to join a unit of Jump Infantry before deploying. But we don't have any rule for Units joining each other before deployment?

that's not an assumtion. it's a rule telling you that he can


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
he can join a unit "before deploying"

How?

unless i have a misprint, See, But Remain Unseen states; "Before deploying he may only join units of jump infantry"

So he has a choice between using his Infiltrate and being completely alone, or joining a squad of Jump Infantry and invalidating his special abilities. It's like Sophie's Choice.

he doesn't lose infiltrate. the infiltrate rule only requires one model to have the special rule

 jokerkd wrote:

unless i have a misprint, See, But Remain Unseen states; "Before deploying he may only join units of jump infantry"

That's not permission to join anything . It's a restriction . It's meaningless without a rule that allows him to join units before deployment in the first place.

GW were aware of this issue back in 5th edition, when they errataed the Independant Character rules to allow it to work. Then 6th Ed came around, and the allowance to join before deployment went away again. For most of the time he's been in the game, Shrike has required a house rule for his deployment rule to actually function.

 jokerkd wrote:
he doesn't lose infiltrate. the infiltrate rule only requires one model to have the special rule

Read the FAQ. "An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment, and vice versa." There are no Jump Infantry with the Infiltrate rule, therefore he cannot join any units and use Infiltrate.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
he doesn't lose infiltrate. the infiltrate rule only requires one model to have the special rule

Read the FAQ. "An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment, and vice versa." There are no Jump Infantry with the Infiltrate rule, therefore he cannot join any units and use Infiltrate.

this changes the independent character rule, not the infiltrate rule


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:

unless i have a misprint, See, But Remain Unseen states; "Before deploying he may only join units of jump infantry"

That's not permission to join anything . It's a restriction . It's meaningless without a rule that allows him to join units before deployment in the first place.

GW were aware of this issue back in 5th edition, when they errataed the Independant Character rules to allow it to work. Then 6th Ed came around, and the allowance to join before deployment went away again. For most of the time he's been in the game, Shrike has required a house rule for his deployment rule to actually function.

can you explain why needing another rule is anything other than opinion?

i have a rule that says he can join units before deployment, and you insist i need a rule that says he can join units before deployment

 jokerkd wrote:
i have a rule that says he can join units before deployment, and you insist i need a rule that says he can join units before deployment

No you have a Rule that says he can only join Jump infantry, rather than non-jump infantry.

"Before running you may only drink water"

Did I tell you to go Running? I'm only allowing you to walk, but I allow you to drink water if you ever go running (which you're not actually allowed to do)

 jokerkd wrote:


i have a rule that says he can join units before deployment,

No, you don't. You have a rule that limits you to only joining a specific type of unit before deployment.

That rule implies that he can join units before deployment (because otherwise it's a useless rule) but there is no rule that actually allows it.

A rule that limits the ways you can perform an action is not permission to perform that action. It's a restriction that will apply when you are allowed to perform that action.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
he doesn't lose infiltrate. the infiltrate rule only requires one model to have the special rule

Read the FAQ. "An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment, and vice versa." There are no Jump Infantry with the Infiltrate rule, therefore he cannot join any units and use Infiltrate.

It is even worse, infiltrate is not optional, Shrike's always alone.

I bet this thread will get 4+ pages.

While we're on that, just talk to your opponent. Shrike's rules have been like that from a long time ago. It's pretty RAI that he could join a specific type of unit before deployment - I wouldn't bat an eye to an opponent fielding him like that.

HIWPI i would let him join the jump unit, either by not Infiltrating and deploy has any other units, or permitting them to infiltrate, sinc it was the intent behind this rule, but again, they've made a rule in th codex, that require a rule in the Rulebook, but the rulebook rules doesn't match...

We all know what the actual rule is. This thread is just poking fun at the incompetence of the GW design team failing to fix a known issue in RaW, that they even fixed in the past and then broken again

Drager wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
he doesn't lose infiltrate. the infiltrate rule only requires one model to have the special rule

Read the FAQ. "An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment, and vice versa." There are no Jump Infantry with the Infiltrate rule, therefore he cannot join any units and use Infiltrate.

It is even worse, infiltrate is not optional, Shrike's always alone.

Holy gak, you're right. Wow, that is quite terrible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:
We all know what the actual rule is. This thread is just poking fun at the incompetence of the GW design team failing to fix a known issue in RaW, that they even fixed in the past and then broken again

the actual rules is quite clear, Shrine is a emo loner.

If the codex says he can join a unit of jump infantry before deployment that trumps the rule from the brb saying he cannot join non infiltrating units.

Lance845 wrote:
If the codex says he can join a unit of jump infantry before deployment that trumps the rule from the brb saying he cannot join non infiltrating units.

Luckily the Codex does not say that

"Before deploying he may only join units of jump infantry"

If you need an in-depth explanation as to why that rule does not say what you may think it does:

 insaniak wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:


i have a rule that says he can join units before deployment,

No, you don't. You have a rule that limits you to only joining a specific type of unit before deployment.

That rule implies that he can join units before deployment (because otherwise it's a useless rule) but there is no rule that actually allows it.

A rule that limits the ways you can perform an action is not permission to perform that action. It's a restriction that will apply when you are allowed to perform that action.

"may join" is permission to do something you otehrwise could not do

"may ONLY join" (the actual rule) RESTRICTS what you can join. It does not provide theinitial permission

Its a case of reading the actual rules, not wha tyou think they should be.

IC rules and Reserves Rules allow for an IC to join a unit before being deployed, but they must be declared in Reserves for this to happen. It is the only time an IC may join a unit before deploying.

An IC may be joined to a unit during deployment, it is true. In which case, Shrike may be deployed in to coherency with Scouts during the Infiltrating portion of Deployment.

So, Shrike's rule only affects who he is going to Deep Strike/Outflank/ride a Reserved Transport with, nothing else.

 insaniak wrote:
GW were aware of this issue back in 5th edition, when they errataed the Independant Character rules to allow it to work. Then 6th Ed came around, and the allowance to join before deployment went away again. For most of the time he's been in the game, Shrike has required a house rule for his deployment rule to actually function.

My guess: the committee that wrote the 6th and 7th edition SM codex put literally no thought into whether Shrike's rules actually work RAW. I'll bet they aren't even aware that there's a problem.

RAW he can't join anything other than infil during deployment

An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment, and vice versa.

RAW he can join a jump infantry unit before deployment.

There are no rules for joining before deployment.

There seems to be intent that he can join before deployment because of the wording "join before deployment"

We can make up HTPI (How to play it) Rules allowing him to join before deployment, but of course this is not the rules as written as there are no rules as written about joining anything before deployment. This also opens up an interesting area of other rules called formations/detachments. Formations/detachments give their benefits before deployment. As we are not given a limit of when before deployment shrike can join things does this mean he can join things before detachment/formation benefits are given out? Unknown, this is probably not intended.

HIWPI- He can join a jump infantry unit before you deploy any units, and they can be held back to infiltrate with him.

RAW- He deploys with jump infiltrators, or deploys alone, or goes into reserve to outflank with something.

The fluff on Shrike's page in this newest codex actually seem to imply that he SHOULD be Infiltrating by himself. Something about striking from the shadows unseen, a lone wolf, etc etc.

He can still let a unit of Jumpers Outflank, which is a legitimate strategy.