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Yes yes, the 1000 figure.

But the thousand marines for being codex compliant covers ten squads of ten in ten companies. All 1000 are accounted for just with the base line troops of each company.

Beyond that, you have the Chapter Master, the Captains, Chaplains and Apothecaries for each company, and standard bearers for all but the tenth. That's an extra 40 before even taking into account the specialists such as librarians and techmarines, any other command staff members, vehicle pilots (Hey, someone needs to be driving all those Rhinos) and so on.

So yes, has anyone ever given the actual figure for an official Roboute Gulliman seal of approval chapter's membership?

changemod wrote:
Yes yes, the 1000 figure.

But the thousand marines for being codex compliant covers ten squads of ten in ten companies. All 1000 are accounted for just with the base line troops of each company.

Beyond that, you have the Chapter Master, the Captains, Chaplains and Apothecaries for each company, and standard bearers for all but the tenth. That's an extra 40 before even taking into account the specialists such as librarians and techmarines, any other command staff members, vehicle pilots (Hey, someone needs to be driving all those Rhinos) and so on.

So yes, has anyone ever given the actual figure for an official Roboute Gulliman seal of approval chapter's membership?

This has been examined many times, and it's impossible to figure out. Even regardless of the fact that we're just never told, you also have to expect that, like in many areas, every chapter will be different.

10 companies of 10 squads of 10 marines = 1000

Each Tactical, Assault, Devastator and Veteran Squad has a rhino/razorback with driver and gunner. That means approximately 980 marines, 98 rhinos, 196 Rhino crew.

10 captains, each with a command squad of 5 veterans for a total of 60 Command crew. Plus, 9-10 of those squads have a Rhino or Razorback as a transport for another 18-20.

Assuming 1 chaplain, Librarian and Techmarine per company, there'd be 12 Chaplains including the Reclusiarch and Master of Sanctity, 11 minimum Librarians including the chief, and likely around 20 Techmarines, including those who remain in the main armoury and the Master of the Forge.

The Chapter Master and Honour Guard, assuming 10 Honour guard which is generous, would be another 11.

Then probably another 100 or so marines who remain as crew drivers for Predators and other vehicles.


Some of those numbers are incredibly rough, such as the Chaplains and Librarians, as there are likely many more than just 1 per company. Those numbers add up to 1430. So there are likely around 1500 total.

Chapters like the Space Wolves which recruit in bigger numbers for bigger and more companies and due to attrition, likely nearer 1700. The Salamanders are smaller, probably the closest to the standard 1000, maybe 1200?
The Black Templars are of course over 6000 strong but spread out.

 Deadshot wrote:
10 companies of 10 squads of 10 marines = 1000

Each Tactical, Assault, Devastator and Veteran Squad has a rhino/razorback with driver and gunner. That means approximately 980 marines, 98 rhinos, 196 Rhino crew.

10 captains, each with a command squad of 5 veterans for a total of 60 Command crew. Plus, 9-10 of those squads have a Rhino or Razorback as a transport for another 18-20.

Assuming 1 chaplain, Librarian and Techmarine per company, there'd be 12 Chaplains including the Reclusiarch and Master of Sanctity, 11 minimum Librarians including the chief, and likely around 20 Techmarines, including those who remain in the main armoury and the Master of the Forge.

The Chapter Master and Honour Guard, assuming 10 Honour guard which is generous, would be another 11.

Then probably another 100 or so marines who remain as crew drivers for Predators and other vehicles.


Some of those numbers are incredibly rough, such as the Chaplains and Librarians, as there are likely many more than just 1 per company. Those numbers add up to 1430. So there are likely around 1500 total.

Chapters like the Space Wolves which recruit in bigger numbers for bigger and more companies and due to attrition, likely nearer 1700. The Salamanders are smaller, probably the closest to the standard 1000, maybe 1200?
The Black Templars are of course over 6000 strong but spread out.

Not all of the vehicles have two crew, so you can reduce that number, though you have forgot a pretty massive part of the chapter, and I mean that literally. The serfs don't man the bridge of the fleet ships.

and all that before you count the scouts according to the codex they can have any number of them as their not officially part of the chapter

 dekinrie wrote:
and all that before you count the scouts according to the codex they can have any number of them as their not officially part of the chapter

That makes things even more confusing, because the scout company is the 10th company. Without including scouts into the figures, then a codex chapter would only number 900 at full strength.

Welcome to Marine organization making no sense. Why isn't the 10th Company just another reserve Company and have an 11th Scout Company that can have their giant blobs of Scouts since its stated they don't take up the 100 Marine figure.

Unless they are trying to imply 100 Marines in Support and Command Positions, like Captains, Command Squads, Techamarines and the like, make up the actual last 100 Marines for the chapter.

Hey there are way more space Marines then ai thought they were.This might actually lend some credence to Peregrines"weak-Marines" theory and their attrition rate.

I dont see how. Having a large force of potential replacements would be wise regardless of how strong you are. You never know what might go wrong.

The Ultramarines, for example:

Calgar and 27 Honor Guard. (28)

Cassius and 10 Chaplains. (39)

Corpus Helix and 12 Apothecaries. (51)

Fennias Maxim and 27 Techmarines. (79)

Tigurius and 24 Librarians of various ranks. (104)

1st Company: Agemman, 97 Veterans, 3 Dreads (205)

2nd Company: 100 Marines, 2 Dreads, Sicarius + Command Squad (313)

3rd Company: Same as 2nd Company (421)

4th Company: Same as above, but with 4 Dreads (531)

5th Company: Same as above, but with 1 Dread (638)

6th Company: 10 Tactical Squads, 4 Dreads, Captain + Command Squad (748)

7th Company: 10 Tactical Squads, 3 Dreads, Captain + Command Squad (857)

8th Company: 10 Assault Squads, Captain + Command Squad (962)

9th Company: 10 Devastator Squads, 7 Dreads, Captain + Command Squad (1075)

Even if you take off the command squads, it's at 1035, since I didn't count the 1st or the 10th as having Command Squads. Include the Scouts and the 1700 Chapter Serfs...

I imagine all Chapters are roughly 1000 Marines strong, with probably atleast double their numbers in Serfs, attaches, and then roughly a company size amount of Scouts.

Marines seem to find some ways to ignore Guilliman's book, they are mentioned up there

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
10 companies of 10 squads of 10 marines = 1000

Each Tactical, Assault, Devastator and Veteran Squad has a rhino/razorback with driver and gunner. That means approximately 980 marines, 98 rhinos, 196 Rhino crew.

10 captains, each with a command squad of 5 veterans for a total of 60 Command crew. Plus, 9-10 of those squads have a Rhino or Razorback as a transport for another 18-20.

Assuming 1 chaplain, Librarian and Techmarine per company, there'd be 12 Chaplains including the Reclusiarch and Master of Sanctity, 11 minimum Librarians including the chief, and likely around 20 Techmarines, including those who remain in the main armoury and the Master of the Forge.

The Chapter Master and Honour Guard, assuming 10 Honour guard which is generous, would be another 11.

Then probably another 100 or so marines who remain as crew drivers for Predators and other vehicles.


Some of those numbers are incredibly rough, such as the Chaplains and Librarians, as there are likely many more than just 1 per company. Those numbers add up to 1430. So there are likely around 1500 total.

Chapters like the Space Wolves which recruit in bigger numbers for bigger and more companies and due to attrition, likely nearer 1700. The Salamanders are smaller, probably the closest to the standard 1000, maybe 1200?
The Black Templars are of course over 6000 strong but spread out.

Not all of the vehicles have two crew, so you can reduce that number, though you have forgot a pretty massive part of the chapter, and I mean that literally. The serfs don't man the bridge of the fleet ships.

Well you have all the Rhino variants which have a driver and a guy operating the weaponry, be it the Rhino stormbolter or the Razorback turrent. I'm sure a Predator also has a commander or spotter like a modern tank, and a Vindicator might have a loader. Land Raiders I didn't count at all because the interior has no actual things for drivers and such, its all passengers from the looks of it, plus Land Raiders can be self-driving.

Space Ships i also didn't count because Astartes crew would be minimal, and I would assume that the ranking officer or NCO of the strike force would have operational control, be that the company captain or the Senior Veteran Sergeant leading the force. There might be an onboard captain to maintain things but not on every ship, and the size of the fleet can vary enormously, especially for Space faring chapters. A small Chapter like the Rainbow Trout mighr have 3 strike cruisers while the Minotaurs have dozens or Battle Barges.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I included the scouts because they are still Astartes (in training), the only difference being that they have no cap on the squad/company size, because limiting that would limit the recruits available and Chapters can't wait because they'd be too old. Plus, you can expect half the 10th Company to die before becoming part of the other companies.

But the Chapter doesn't field every vehicle at once. Often, the drivers/gunners for said vehicles will be part of the Company to which the vehicle is assigned, or members of the Scout Company, or a Reserve Company or members of whatever Company is assigned to maintain the motor pool of the Chapter. At any rate, these Marines are not "extra", they're coming from somewhere within the FOC.

The Land Raider most definitely has a driver and a gunner, at the least. Possibly also a loader.

Chapters like the Space Wolves which recruit in bigger numbers for bigger and more companies and due to attrition, likely nearer 1700. The Salamanders are smaller, probably the closest to the standard 1000, maybe 1200?
The Black Templars are of course over 6000 strong but spread out.

Space Wolves are pretty easy to figure out.

1x GC @ 187 Marines + 1x GC @ 180 Marines = 367

10 GC @ <179 Marines = maximum 1790 Marines.

1790 + 367 = maximum 2157 Space Wolves, assuming 179 Marines in all the rest of the Great Companies noted as being smaller than that of Logan and Ragnar. In all likelihood, these GCs have an average of 100 Marines, which gives the Space Wolves 1367 Marines.

Yes, a very large Chapter in M41. Nowhere near Legion-sized.

 Psienesis wrote:
But the Chapter doesn't field every vehicle at once. Often, the drivers/gunners for said vehicles will be part of the Company to which the vehicle is assigned, or members of the Scout Company, or a Reserve Company or members of whatever Company is assigned to maintain the motor pool of the Chapter. At any rate, these Marines are not "extra", they're coming from somewhere within the FOC.

The Land Raider most definitely has a driver and a gunner, at the least. Possibly also a loader.

Chapters like the Space Wolves which recruit in bigger numbers for bigger and more companies and due to attrition, likely nearer 1700. The Salamanders are smaller, probably the closest to the standard 1000, maybe 1200?
The Black Templars are of course over 6000 strong but spread out.

Space Wolves are pretty easy to figure out.

1x GC @ 187 Marines + 1x GC @ 180 Marines = 367

10 GC @ <179 Marines = maximum 1790 Marines.

1790 + 367 = maximum 2157 Space Wolves, assuming 179 Marines in all the rest of the Great Companies noted as being smaller than that of Logan and Ragnar. In all likelihood, these GCs have an average of 100 Marines, which gives the Space Wolves 1367 Marines.

Yes, a very large Chapter in M41. Nowhere near Legion-sized.

That doesn't make it any easier to figure out than a codex chapter.
Are vehicle crew etc, already part of it? What about rune priests etc.? Is this considered to be 'full strenght' by the SW or not?

Are SM vehicles even crewed by SM, or by Chapter serfs?
How large is the Librarium of the average Chapter?
The question of how many SM in a average chapter will always remain fundamentally impossible to answer.

 Psienesis wrote:
But the Chapter doesn't field every vehicle at once. Often, the drivers/gunners for said vehicles will be part of the Company to which the vehicle is assigned, or members of the Scout Company, or a Reserve Company or members of whatever Company is assigned to maintain the motor pool of the Chapter. At any rate, these Marines are not "extra", they're coming from somewhere within the FOC.

The Land Raider most definitely has a driver and a gunner, at the least. Possibly also a loader.

Chapters like the Space Wolves which recruit in bigger numbers for bigger and more companies and due to attrition, likely nearer 1700. The Salamanders are smaller, probably the closest to the standard 1000, maybe 1200?
The Black Templars are of course over 6000 strong but spread out.

Space Wolves are pretty easy to figure out.

1x GC @ 187 Marines + 1x GC @ 180 Marines = 367

10 GC @ <179 Marines = maximum 1790 Marines.

1790 + 367 = maximum 2157 Space Wolves, assuming 179 Marines in all the rest of the Great Companies noted as being smaller than that of Logan and Ragnar. In all likelihood, these GCs have an average of 100 Marines, which gives the Space Wolves 1367 Marines.

Yes, a very large Chapter in M41. Nowhere near Legion-sized.

What about Chapter level engagements? There has to be Marines to pilot them then. And it has to be full blown Astartes seeing as the vehicles interface with the marine's armour and black carapace (espeically in the case of Hunters and Stalkers where the weaponry is automated and the pilot can't actually look out to see the target as he might with a predator or vindicator.

 Deadshot wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
10 companies of 10 squads of 10 marines = 1000

Each Tactical, Assault, Devastator and Veteran Squad has a rhino/razorback with driver and gunner. That means approximately 980 marines, 98 rhinos, 196 Rhino crew.

10 captains, each with a command squad of 5 veterans for a total of 60 Command crew. Plus, 9-10 of those squads have a Rhino or Razorback as a transport for another 18-20.

Assuming 1 chaplain, Librarian and Techmarine per company, there'd be 12 Chaplains including the Reclusiarch and Master of Sanctity, 11 minimum Librarians including the chief, and likely around 20 Techmarines, including those who remain in the main armoury and the Master of the Forge.

The Chapter Master and Honour Guard, assuming 10 Honour guard which is generous, would be another 11.

Then probably another 100 or so marines who remain as crew drivers for Predators and other vehicles.


Some of those numbers are incredibly rough, such as the Chaplains and Librarians, as there are likely many more than just 1 per company. Those numbers add up to 1430. So there are likely around 1500 total.

Chapters like the Space Wolves which recruit in bigger numbers for bigger and more companies and due to attrition, likely nearer 1700. The Salamanders are smaller, probably the closest to the standard 1000, maybe 1200?
The Black Templars are of course over 6000 strong but spread out.

Not all of the vehicles have two crew, so you can reduce that number, though you have forgot a pretty massive part of the chapter, and I mean that literally. The serfs don't man the bridge of the fleet ships.

Well you have all the Rhino variants which have a driver and a guy operating the weaponry, be it the Rhino stormbolter or the Razorback turrent. I'm sure a Predator also has a commander or spotter like a modern tank, and a Vindicator might have a loader. Land Raiders I didn't count at all because the interior has no actual things for drivers and such, its all passengers from the looks of it, plus Land Raiders can be self-driving.

Space Ships i also didn't count because Astartes crew would be minimal, and I would assume that the ranking officer or NCO of the strike force would have operational control, be that the company captain or the Senior Veteran Sergeant leading the force. There might be an onboard captain to maintain things but not on every ship, and the size of the fleet can vary enormously, especially for Space faring chapters. A small Chapter like the Rainbow Trout mighr have 3 strike cruisers while the Minotaurs have dozens or Battle Barges.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I included the scouts because they are still Astartes (in training), the only difference being that they have no cap on the squad/company size, because limiting that would limit the recruits available and Chapters can't wait because they'd be too old. Plus, you can expect half the 10th Company to die before becoming part of the other companies.

All Rhinos are one crew. Most Razorbacks bar some of the older marks are also one crew. Predators are two I believe, as are Land Raiders, though this may have been retconned to one crew each, with the other components computerised to facilitate one the one crew. Then apply to the rest. The only vehicles that are for definite manned by two crew are land speeders and attack bikes, but they are company members, and thunder hawks & storm raven, the rest it is quite ambiguous now other than the rhino and newer marks of razorback at least anyway.

Well in that case, its 1332. Land Raider crew is a bit of mystery. Unlike Rhinos they are not "part of the company," but just called upon by the 1st, if that Ultramarine Chapter breakdown in the codex is anything to go by. The Ultramarines as a baseline, has 13 land raiders? Including Calgar's pimpmobile. So that's an extra 25 or so on average. Maybe looking at around 1350 average size, maybe 1375, as I still am keeping Librarian and Chaplain count minimal (1 Chief/Reclusiarch, 1 Master of Sanctity, 1 per company)

There's a schematic of the land raider and predator that was around when they first got released, they had two crew, though like I said, that is now retconned I think to maybe 1 each.

Imperial Armour volume Two Second Edition is pretty recent and still lists both Predators and Land Raiders as having a crew of 2. I'm not aware of any source that puts them as one.

Crews are contradictory, some sources say the Tactical Reserve companies provide crews to armoured formations, but the full order of battle for the Ultramarines in the 3rd edition codex (which is still relevant as it's the only comprehensive listing GW has ever done, it's actually the only source for the number of vehicles in a Battle Company) stated that all vehicles except Land Speeders included crews.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
There's a schematic of the land raider and predator that was around when they first got released, they had two crew, though like I said, that is now retconned I think to maybe 1 each.

Lexicanum still lists them as having 2 (driver + gunner and driver + commander) so that's what I'm going with Predators I don't know how they could operate with just 1 crew, same with the likes of Stalkers, Whirlwinds, etc. You'd need 1 to drive and 1 to shoot with those weapons, the Machine Spirit can't automate them and the weapons need precise shots to be effective, something the driver can't do while driving. Vindicators would need a loader as well, while the driver will maybe be the gunner as well seeing as he aims the weapon. Land Raiders, I don't see the need for crew. The models and diagrams don't show any drivers compartment or really anywhere for the drivers to commanders to operate from, especially when the tank is full of Terminators, maybe even 8 of them. Besides, the tanks can operate on their own, why need crew?

 Deadshot wrote:
Land Raiders, I don't see the need for crew. The models and diagrams don't show any drivers compartment or really anywhere for the drivers to commanders to operate from,

They are omitted from the model kit, but both the Imperial Armour diagram and the Index Astartes poster show the crew positions: the driver has a seat hanging from the ceiling directly below the front cupola whilst the commander has a sanding platform suspended under the rear cupola.

I always took the figure of 1000 to be a rough number, one that sounds better in poetic or ceremonial language. After all, the "actual" text of the Codex Astartes has never been published.

IA2 implies that the Rhino has a driver in addition to the squad it transports (with the squad sergeant acting as commander/gunner, IIRC).

The original Predator and Land Raider had crews of up to four (the Land Raider possibly had only three, as I can't remember whether the heavy bolters had a gunner, were operated by the driver or were for the use of passengers), although both vehicles had auto-drive and auto-aim systems, so they could operate autonomously anyway.

I think the plastic/metal Predator kits from 2nd edition had four crew (driver, turret gunner, two sponson gunners), and that's still a"canon" vehicle according to IA2. So, for Chapters still operating that design, they'll need a few more Marines on hand to operate those.

Copied straight from excel so sorry for the formatting. This is the Blood Angels Chapter as in the codex. I've assumed every company has a 5 man command squad and each company is at full strength. It includes the right amount of dreadnoughts each company has. There may be more astartes who aren't listed but the codex is pretty thorough.

Chapter Master 1
Sanguinary Priesthood 22
Reclusiam 15
Librarius 38
Sanguinary Guard 30
1st company 112
2nd Company 109
3rd Company 110
4th Company 110
5th Company 109
6th Company 109
7th Company 108
8th Company 107
9th Company 109
10th Company 106
Fleet Command 1
Logisticiam 1
Armoury 1
Techmarines 35
1233

Also for those interested here's none astartes chapter members.

Neophytes 64
Logisticiam Equerries and servitors 900
Armoury Servitors 105
1069

Total = 2302

Hope this helps

 Deadshot wrote:
The Black Templars are of course over 6000 strong but spread out.

Well five to six thousand was the upper Inquisitorial estimate of the Black Templar's numbers.
In Eternal Crusader however it's revealed that the Black Templars are in fact only slightly larger than a regular Chapter, and that 200 Marines is just under one fifth of their total strength.

Taffy17 wrote:
Copied straight from excel so sorry for the formatting. This is the Blood Angels Chapter as in the codex

Hope this helps

Excellent.

Animus wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
The Black Templars are of course over 6000 strong but spread out.

Well five to six thousand was the upper Inquisitorial estimate of the Black Templar's numbers.
In Eternal Crusader however it's revealed that the Black Templars are in fact only slightly larger than a regular Chapter, and that 200 Marines is just under one fifth of their total strength.

One man's writing doesn't erase other sources. An in-universe source says 5000 or abouts, which is equally as valid as 1200 base. The only thing that is true is that they are larger.

 Deadshot wrote:

Animus wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
The Black Templars are of course over 6000 strong but spread out.

Well five to six thousand was the upper Inquisitorial estimate of the Black Templar's numbers.
In Eternal Crusader however it's revealed that the Black Templars are in fact only slightly larger than a regular Chapter, and that 200 Marines is just under one fifth of their total strength.

One man's writing doesn't erase other sources. An in-universe source says 5000 or abouts, which is equally as valid as 1200 base. The only thing that is true is that they are larger.

The Inquisition estimated five to six thousand as the upper amount.
The other isn't a guess, just a statement.

As the others have said, there is no way of knowing for certain, so we have to guess, I would guess anywhere from 1200-1400, after all the marines in the armory, librarius, and all the other parts of the chapter are added in.

Animus wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Animus wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
The Black Templars are of course over 6000 strong but spread out.

Well five to six thousand was the upper Inquisitorial estimate of the Black Templar's numbers.
In Eternal Crusader however it's revealed that the Black Templars are in fact only slightly larger than a regular Chapter, and that 200 Marines is just under one fifth of their total strength.

One man's writing doesn't erase other sources. An in-universe source says 5000 or abouts, which is equally as valid as 1200 base. The only thing that is true is that they are larger.

The Inquisition estimated five to six thousand as the upper amount.
The other isn't a guess, just a statement.

I don't know what you are trying to say. They are both equally valid estimates.

 Deadshot wrote:

Animus wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Animus wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
The Black Templars are of course over 6000 strong but spread out.

Well five to six thousand was the upper Inquisitorial estimate of the Black Templar's numbers.
In Eternal Crusader however it's revealed that the Black Templars are in fact only slightly larger than a regular Chapter, and that 200 Marines is just under one fifth of their total strength.

One man's writing doesn't erase other sources. An in-universe source says 5000 or abouts, which is equally as valid as 1200 base. The only thing that is true is that they are larger.

The Inquisition estimated five to six thousand as the upper amount.
The other isn't a guess, just a statement.

I don't know what you are trying to say. They are both equally valid estimates.

According to Haley, the retcon to 1,200 ballpark is direct from corporate. So no, the five thousand or more estimation is incorrect.