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I'm going to be playing a game soon and as I was looking through the Dark Angel Codex, I figured that this issue might arise during the game and I would rather clarify it now then later. The Dark Angels, thanks to Grim Resolve and certain formations, can Overwatch with better accuracy but in the end it is still Overwatch. So that means the Overwatchies are Snap Firing and through that then blast weapons and the like have to follow the restrictions for Snap Firing (blast weapons can't fire and templates roll D3), or am I wrong?

Sadly, you're right. I'd have loved if our plasma cannon and flamers had better overwatch.

 Talon of Anathrax wrote:
and flamers had better overwatch.

But BS stuff doesn't affect flamers' overwatch

I think he means he wishes he could fire the flamer normally, possibley getting more than three hits. Though that might mean getting no hits at all, depending on distance. But no, that would be rediculous. They already have a great overwatch, and besides, I thingk the auto D3 is better in many cases.

Not just auto d3, auto d3 from across the board. If i have a unit(small based models) against 1 short edge of the table and you have a unit with a template weapon against the other short edge, and then i declare a charge: your template weapon reaches out to hit d3 guys 70" away.

They snap fire at full BS buy it's still Snap Fire.

This came up last night: if a DAnglel is hit by a blind grenade making him BS1, does he still overwatch at BS2?

axisofentropy wrote:
This came up last night: if a DAnglel is hit by a blind grenade making him BS1, does he still overwatch at BS2?

From my understanding of the rules, Blind shouldn't affect the Overwatch BS since Snap Firing says that when you fire via Snap Fire then you count as shooting at BS 1. Thanks to Grim Resolve we substitute that '1' with '2' or whatever it may be thanks to out formations so funnily enough depending on how it goes, we'll suck at regular shooting but are better when you're charging us. I suppose for fluff sense that the Blind effect would be going away by the time you're charging us, haha.

axisofentropy wrote:
They snap fire at full BS buy it's still Snap Fire.

This came up last night: if a DAnglel is hit by a blind grenade making him BS1, does he still overwatch at BS2?

I would handle that with this rule

While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or similar. When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order.

Both these rules are setting the BS of the DA unit when it fires. Its not clear which gets applies 1st so I would say the charging player gets to choose. So, sadly, the DA model hit with a blind grenade should be BS1 during overwatch.

Blind specifically states the model is WS/BS1 until end of their next turn. Grim Resolve modifies Snap Firing for the purpose of Overwatch, but if you were blinded, it would not matter as you are straight up BS1 until end of your next turn.

In other words, Blind takes precedence.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Blind specifically states the model is WS/BS1 until end of their next turn. Grim Resolve modifies Snap Firing for the purpose of Overwatch, but if you were blinded, it would not matter as you are straight up BS1 until end of your next turn.

In other words, Blind takes precedence.

The question is slightly different though, since overwatch does not use the model BS to resolve the attack.

 DJGietzen wrote:

axisofentropy wrote:
They snap fire at full BS buy it's still Snap Fire.

This came up last night: if a DAnglel is hit by a blind grenade making him BS1, does he still overwatch at BS2?

I would handle that with this rule

While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or similar. When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order.

Both these rules are setting the BS of the DA unit when it fires. Its not clear which gets applies 1st so I would say the charging player gets to choose. So, sadly, the DA model hit with a blind grenade should be BS1 during overwatch.

I would say that blind is applied first. It is applied at the point of the blind test. There's no reason to think it should be applied again everytime the unit tries to shoot

Spoletta has a point. Overwatch does not change the characteristic. It just picks one for the shot. If one had to take a characteristic test - say Gets Hot meant instead of an armor save, you took a BS test or take a wound. You might fire the Overwatch at BSX, but you'd take your test on your normal BS (Or BS1 due to blind)

Spoletta wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
Blind specifically states the model is WS/BS1 until end of their next turn. Grim Resolve modifies Snap Firing for the purpose of Overwatch, but if you were blinded, it would not matter as you are straight up BS1 until end of your next turn.

In other words, Blind takes precedence.

The question is slightly different though, since overwatch does not use the model BS to resolve the attack.

It does has a BS value attached to it by way of Grim Resolve. It says "At BS2." Why would that not get reduced to 1 because of blind?

 SRSFACE wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
Blind specifically states the model is WS/BS1 until end of their next turn. Grim Resolve modifies Snap Firing for the purpose of Overwatch, but if you were blinded, it would not matter as you are straight up BS1 until end of your next turn.

In other words, Blind takes precedence.

The question is slightly different though, since overwatch does not use the model BS to resolve the attack.

It does has a BS value attached to it by way of Grim Resolve. It says "At BS2." Why would that not get reduced to 1 because of blind?

Because it is a set value. Same reason having bs4 doesn't override bs1 on overwatch

 SRSFACE wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
Blind specifically states the model is WS/BS1 until end of their next turn. Grim Resolve modifies Snap Firing for the purpose of Overwatch, but if you were blinded, it would not matter as you are straight up BS1 until end of your next turn.

In other words, Blind takes precedence.

The question is slightly different though, since overwatch does not use the model BS to resolve the attack.

It does has a BS value attached to it by way of Grim Resolve. It says "At BS2." Why would that not get reduced to 1 because of blind?

Because Blind reduces the BS of the model, while Overwatch doesn't even use the BS of the model. Like the Smite attack from the Mace. Doesn't use the stats of the weapon, replaces it with a special attack.

 jokerkd wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
Blind specifically states the model is WS/BS1 until end of their next turn. Grim Resolve modifies Snap Firing for the purpose of Overwatch, but if you were blinded, it would not matter as you are straight up BS1 until end of your next turn.

In other words, Blind takes precedence.

The question is slightly different though, since overwatch does not use the model BS to resolve the attack.

It does has a BS value attached to it by way of Grim Resolve. It says "At BS2." Why would that not get reduced to 1 because of blind?

Because it is a set value. Same reason having bs4 doesn't override bs1 on overwatch

You don't overwatch at BS1. You overwatch by Snap Firing, which reduces your BS to 1 under normal conditions.

 SRSFACE wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
Blind specifically states the model is WS/BS1 until end of their next turn. Grim Resolve modifies Snap Firing for the purpose of Overwatch, but if you were blinded, it would not matter as you are straight up BS1 until end of your next turn.

In other words, Blind takes precedence.

The question is slightly different though, since overwatch does not use the model BS to resolve the attack.

It does has a BS value attached to it by way of Grim Resolve. It says "At BS2." Why would that not get reduced to 1 because of blind?

Because it is a set value. Same reason having bs4 doesn't override bs1 on overwatch

You don't overwatch at BS1. You overwatch by Snap Firing, which reduces your BS to 1 under normal conditions.

It doesn't reduce your bs at all. It gives you a set value to use. It is not a modifier. That set value cannot be modified unless a special rule specifically states it overrides it (markerlights for example)

 SRSFACE wrote:

You don't overwatch at BS1. You overwatch by Snap Firing, which reduces your BS to 1 under normal conditions.

No, it's resolved at BS1- if for any other reason you had to use your BS at that same point, it would still be whatever it normally was.

I've got a weapon that resolves penetration against all armor higher than 12 as if it's 12. That doesn't mean it drops to 12 at any point.

If blind reduces you to firing EVERYTHING at BS1 until x then EVERYTHING you fire has to be fired at BS1 you can call snapfiring and overwatch different things but at the end of the day it is still firing. So for all intents and purposes you over watch at BS1

 Ghazkuul wrote:
If blind reduces you to firing EVERYTHING at BS1 until x then EVERYTHING you fire has to be fired at BS1 you can call snapfiring and overwatch different things but at the end of the day it is still firing. So for all intents and purposes you over watch at BS1

Absolutely correct. IF Blind sets all firing to BS1, then Overwatch should be BS1, Else (IF) blind reduces your BS statistic to BS1, then overwatch is still BS2. And no, I haven't quite figured out how I'd play it yet. On the one hand, you're blind. On the other hand, this is somewhat their Chapter Tactic, would would infer they spend a LOT of time practicing overwatch, and even blind they'd be better at it than others.

Snap shots ignore the models base bs. All snap shots are resolved at bs1 unless specifically modified by a special rule. Blind does not specifically modify snap shots. Markerlights do as they have a special rule that says they do. Darkangels with grim resolve also change the set value of snapshots, but only when firing overwatch

Blind = all models in the unit are reduced to Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill 1 until the end of their next turn.

Overwatch = Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots.

Snap Shots = If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots, unless it has a Ballistic Skill of 0 .
also, The Ballistic Skill of a model firing a Snap Shot can only be modified by special rules that specifically state that they affect Snap Shots, along with any other restrictions (some may only modify Ballistic Skill when firing Overwatch Snap Shots, for example). If a special rule doesn’t specifically state that it affects Snap Shots, then the Snap Shot is resolved at Ballistic Skill 1.

Grim Resolve = Unless Jinking, count their Ballistic Skill as 2 when firing Overwatch.
Demi-company Fire Discipline = brings it to BS3
Lion’s blade Supreme Fire Discipline = use their normal BS

Now if I'm reading the rules right one of two things happens.
1. Grim Resolve does not work at all, because it does not specifically state that it affects Snap Shots.
2. You are Blind BS 1, (Overwatch only) Grim Resolve BS2, Fire DisciplineBS 3, Supreme Fire Discipline normal BS in this case BS 1 because of Blind.

Am I right?

1 is RAW, but RAI is so clear that you will probably never see this argued outside of rules forum

2 depends on your idea of normal bs. Bs1 is arguably not your normal bs

1) Grim Resolve doesn't affect snap shots.

It affects SOME snap shots- specifically the Overwatch variety, as opposed to the moving heavy weapons variety for example.

2) Depends on how you paraphrased it. i.e. there's a theoretical difference, while blinded between the models normal BS, and the model's BS.

Seems pretty clear to me actually, snap shots are never influenced by the model's stats unless the BS is 0. Since blind can't bring BS to 0 then it never impacts on shapshots.

The only case where this happens is if you have the full BS overwatch, in which case you snapshot at BS1. Yeah makes no sense, but RAW i read it like that.

Bs1 is not a dark angel's normal ballistic skil

Blind is a USR. Grim Resolve is a Codex SR.
Codex SR trump USR, don't they?

 Thairne wrote:
Blind is a USR. Grim Resolve is a Codex SR.
Codex SR trump USR, don't they?

This only matters if there is a conflict (which there is not)

So we're arguing here for arguments sake?
Blind says BS1. Grim Resolve says BS2.

 Thairne wrote:
So we're arguing here for arguments sake?
Blind says BS1. Grim Resolve says BS2.

And as i see it that's the easy part.
Now for the hard part: "The model fires overwatch using his regular BS", i think there is no way out, while it doesn't make sense, the model would shoot at BS1.