Military to end ban on Transgender Service members

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**hotsauceman1**

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/07/13/officials-pentagon-readying-plan-to-lift-transgender-ban/
About time

**Hordini**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/07/13/officials-pentagon-readying-plan-to-lift-transgender-ban/
About time

lol.

Historically, the military actually tends to be pretty ahead of the curve in terms of social issues when compared with society at large. This was inevitable and I'm not surprised in the least.

**Frazzled**

All two of them.

About time? Come on this is an infinitesimal portion of the US population. Until recently this was classified as a mental disorder (might still be-don't keep up).

I'm fine with it, but this was no great crime against humanity here as in the real world there statistically aren't many.

**curran12**

Do we have hard numbers on it, not sure if it is infinitesimal, or not.

**Hordini**

curran12 wrote:
Do we have hard numbers on it, not sure if it is infinitesimal, or not.

Hard numbers on what, exactly? Number of transgender people in the US? Number in the military? Number who are transgender and otherwise qualified for military service (I'm guessing this number is probably low).

**Frazzled**

curran12 wrote:
Do we have hard numbers on it, not sure if it is infinitesimal, or not.

Finally Life is catching up with television. Klinger was the first!

Maxwell Klinger
Klinger
M*A*S*H character
Alan Alda Jamie Farr Hawkeye and Klinger MASH 1977.JPG
First appearance "Chief Surgeon Who?"
Last appearance "Saturday's Heroes" (AfterMASH)
Portrayed by Television: Jamie Farr
Information
Gender Male
Title Corporal
Sergeant
Hometown Toledo, Ohio
United States

Corporal (later Sergeant) Maxwell Q. Klinger is a fictional character from the M*A*S*H television series played by American actor Jamie Farr. Despite the writers giving him a German/Jewish-sounding name, he is an Arab-American of Lebanese descent hailing from Toledo, Ohio (like Farr himself), Klinger serves as an orderly/corpsman (and later company clerk) assigned to the 4077th Mobile Army Surgical Hospital in [usually] Uijeongbu during the Korean War. The character's original defining characteristic is his attempts to gain a Section 8 psychiatric discharge from the army, by habitually wearing women's clothing and engaging in other "crazy" stunts, but never at the expense of his duties. He never gives up his discharge attempts, even after a lecture from B.J. Hunnicut on how living under an assumed name would affect his life, and warnings from both Colonel Potter and Major Freedman of what a Section 8 would do to him after he got out of the Army.[35] This comes after Klinger tries to desert by forging Potter's signature on a discharge form (Goodbye, Cruel World). After he is promoted from the rank of corporal to sergeant during the course of the TV series, he takes his job more seriously as the writers had decided to "tap into his street skills" to flesh out his character. Klinger supports the Toledo Mud Hens, the city's real-life minor league baseball team, and occasionally voices his high opinion of the hot dogs at Tony Packo's Cafe.

Klinger also does guard duty in the nighttime hours. For example, in the episode, "Major Topper," Klinger was assigned by Colonel Potter to keep a close watch on Corporal "Boots" Miller, a soldier that was newly assigned to the MASH 4077 who was mentally unstable and had gone insane. During guard duty, Boots hallucinated and suddenly shot his rifle in the air, thinking enemy gliders were flying by. Later, Klinger tries to inform Potter about Boots' crackpot behavior and what happened while Miller was on guard duty. Potter, thinking that Klinger is lying and that he is working with Boots to get a Section Eight discharge, refuses to believe him until Boots shows up, pointing his rifle toward the imaginary prisoners of the imaginary glider. Potter and Klinger got Boots a Section Eight discharge.

Klinger first appeared in the episode "Chief Surgeon Who?". In that episode's original script, Corporal Klinger was written as an effeminate gay man. However, the writers subsequently decided that it would be more interesting to have Klinger be heterosexual, but wear dresses in an attempt to gain a Section 8 discharge.[36] Klinger claimed on a couple of occasions that the cross-dressing dodge had kept his Uncle Abdul out of the Army during World War II. Uncle Abdul also reportedly sent Klinger bits of his old wardrobe from time to time.

Series writer Larry Gelbart stated during the M*A*S*H 30th Anniversary Reunion special that Klinger's antics were inspired by stories of Lenny Bruce attempting to dodge his own military service by dressing himself as a U.S. Navy WAVE.

Later in the program's development, the writers of M*A*S*H gave Klinger characteristics derived from actor Jamie Farr, including the character's background as a native of Toledo, Ohio.

In the series finale, Klinger married his girlfriend Soon-Lee in a dual Christian-Buddhist ceremony, his second marriage after Klinger is married to a girl from his hometown ("Laverne Esposito" voiced by actress Mary Kay Place) over the radio, in an episode from season three ('Springtime'). Klinger's divorce from his first wife was made known in the sixth season episode "Mail Call Three". Following the ceremony with Soon-Lee, as he had announced at the unit's farewell dinner, the newlyweds depart the 4077th to search for Soon-Lee's parents. The AfterMASH pilot reveals their ultimate fate: The war had wiped out the family's livelihood, and Klinger helped his in-laws set themselves up again as farmers (and would continue to send them money from the States). Afterwards, the Klingers traveled to the United States and attempted to settle in Toledo. However, Soon-Lee was subjected to discrimination there, and they relocated to River Bend, Missouri, Max Klinger taking a job at the General Pershing VA Hospital; his position working directly for Dr. Sherman Potter there is very similar to his job as the company clerk of the 4077th.

Klinger was the first main character introduced on M*A*S*H not to have appeared in either Richard Hooker's original M*A*S*H novel or the subsequent film.

**ImAGeek**

Frazzled wrote:
All two of them.

About time? Come on this is an infinitesimal portion of the US population. Until recently this was classified as a mental disorder (might still be-don't keep up).

I'm fine with it, but this was no great crime against humanity here as in the real world there statistically aren't many.

It might be a small thing, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't have happened. So yes, about time.

**Xenomancers**

Well...the real question is - can people with intersex conditions (people who have both sex organs) join the military? (this is a bigger issue because these people actually exist.)

**CptJake**

I wonder how many guys will 'identify' as women so they can have the easier APFT and body fat standards.

**Hordini**

CptJake wrote:
I wonder how many guys will 'identify' as women so they can have the easier APFT and body fat standards.

I'm guessing very few, because the stigma for that would be massive.

**Xenomancers**

Hordini wrote:
CptJake wrote:
I wonder how many guys will 'identify' as women so they can have the easier APFT and body fat standards.

I'm guessing very few, because the stigma for that would be massive.

These people are beyond stigmas.

**CptJake**

I had a guy claim to be gay to avoid going to Korea (in the 90s when Don't Ask Don't Tell had just started).

For him, ending his term of service and avoiding Korea was better than dealing with any 'stigma' attached. For what it is worth, to this day I do not think he was actually gay in this case.

**Jihadin**

Xenomancers wrote:
Hordini wrote:
CptJake wrote:
I wonder how many guys will 'identify' as women so they can have the easier APFT and body fat standards.

I'm guessing very few, because the stigma for that would be massive.

These people are beyond stigmas.

Can you imagine the waiver signatures that would involve for a male to fall under female standards?
Sounds like a General Grade officer of MEDAC to be the final signature to grant that status.
I can't see the body fat standards sliding left or right being female and male fat build up is different.

**Peregrine**

CptJake wrote:
I wonder how many guys will 'identify' as women so they can have the easier APFT and body fat standards.

Probably none, because it's going to be very easy to tell the difference between someone with a male body who is legitimately identifying as a woman and living as one 24/7 and someone with a male body who claims to be a woman when it's time for the fitness tests and then goes back to being a man. I can't imagine there are very many people who would be willing to put the vast amount of effort into changing one of the most fundamental aspects of who they are just to get such a trivial benefit. And if it's easy for them to make a complete change and identify as a woman 24/7 then perhaps it's a sign that their identification is accurate.

**Soladrin**

Last I heard there were around 700.000 trans people in the US.

**CptJake**

Well, seeing as the folks currently serving who are transgendered clearly cannot live their desired sexual identity 24/7, to assume that becomes a requirement to be considered believably legitimately identifying is just that, an assumption.

I'm guessing the 'burden of proof' is gonna be pretty damned loose, or at least loosely applied as folks are scared of the EO gak storm which will come down if they deny a request to be considered a different sex.

**Laemos**

[MOD EDIT - COMMENT REMOVED - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

**Peregrine**

CptJake wrote:
Well, seeing as the folks currently serving who are transgendered clearly cannot live their desired sexual identity 24/7, to assume that becomes a requirement to be considered believably legitimately identifying is just that, an assumption.

But there's a difference between "not living 24/7" and "not making any attempt at living that identity outside of this one specific situation". Yeah, maybe there are situations where someone has to hide their identity part of the time, but it should still be pretty obvious that they're making an effort. And someone who is just briefly pretending to be the opposite gender is not going to invest that kind of effort or change their identity. Maybe if we were talking about billion-dollar prizes for having the most convincing gender swap people would fake it, but for a slightly easier fitness test?

I'm guessing the 'burden of proof' is gonna be pretty damned loose, or at least loosely applied as folks are scared of the EO gak storm which will come down if they deny a request to be considered a different sex.

I'm guessing that even a loose burden of proof will be sufficient to exclude people who claim to be the opposite gender for 15 minutes to gain a specific benefit.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Laemos wrote:
{content deleted}

This is incredibly offensive and I hope you get banned.

**Hordini**

CptJake wrote:
I had a guy claim to be gay to avoid going to Korea (in the 90s when Don't Ask Don't Tell had just started).

For him, ending his term of service and avoiding Korea was better than dealing with any 'stigma' attached. For what it is worth, to this day I do not think he was actually gay in this case.

I'm not condoning it, but I feel like it makes more sense for someone who was wanting to get out of a deployment and then get completely out of the military to do something like that, than for someone who actually wants to stay in but just have easier PT standards.

**CptJake**

Hordini wrote:
CptJake wrote:
I had a guy claim to be gay to avoid going to Korea (in the 90s when Don't Ask Don't Tell had just started).

For him, ending his term of service and avoiding Korea was better than dealing with any 'stigma' attached. For what it is worth, to this day I do not think he was actually gay in this case.

I'm not condoning it, but I feel like it makes more sense for someone who was wanting to get out of a deployment and then get completely out of the military to do something like that, than for someone who actually wants to stay in but just have easier PT standards.

Read up on the Dailey's push to get fat bodies and APFT failures chaptered out. Get chaptered out at 12-18 years for example, and you lose your retirement. That is a pretty big incentive.

I do not think it will be common, but I would bet it happens/is attempted.

Of course, this is just speculation. We do not know how APFT/Body composition standards will apply to transgender troopers. I am sure the polices put into place will be well thought out and no one will try to take advantage of them. (okay, the last sentence is sarcasm.)

**Hordini**

CptJake wrote:
Hordini wrote:
CptJake wrote:
I had a guy claim to be gay to avoid going to Korea (in the 90s when Don't Ask Don't Tell had just started).

For him, ending his term of service and avoiding Korea was better than dealing with any 'stigma' attached. For what it is worth, to this day I do not think he was actually gay in this case.

I'm not condoning it, but I feel like it makes more sense for someone who was wanting to get out of a deployment and then get completely out of the military to do something like that, than for someone who actually wants to stay in but just have easier PT standards.

Read up on the Dailey's push to get fat bodies and APFT failures chaptered out. Get chaptered out at 12-18 years for example, and you lose your retirement. That is a pretty big incentive.

I do not think it will be common, but I would bet it happens/is attempted.

Okay. Yeah in that case I can see what you're saying. It's just such a foreign mindset to me that it's hard for me to even think of reasons why someone would want to do that. It's a clear integrity violation and someone who would claim to be transgender just so they can take a female PT test because they can't pass the male test (which isn't that difficult) has no business staying in uniform.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

CptJake wrote:
Of course, this is just speculation. We do not know how APFT/Body composition standards will apply to transgender troopers. I am sure the polices put into place will be well thought out and no one will try to take advantage of them. (okay, the last sentence is sarcasm.)

Probably the only fair way to do it would be to allow transgender troops to serve, but base PFT standards purely on biological sex.

**CptJake**

Hordini wrote:

Probably the only fair way to do it would be to allow transgender troops to serve, but base PFT standards purely on biological sex.

Until....

They start hormone therapy. Or go full out and get their special parts operated on and switched around AND up the hormone intake to fully transition (during which time I bet they are non-deployable for a few months).

That is going to be interesting because a male hormone taking chick is gonna have different body fat and muscle mass than a regular chick. Same goes for a guy taking female hormones as opposed to a guy not doing so. To compare them fairly is going to take some well thought out policy backed by data that currently to my knowledge does not exist.

**Hordini**

CptJake wrote:
Hordini wrote:

Probably the only fair way to do it would be to allow transgender troops to serve, but base PFT standards purely on biological sex.

Until....

They start hormone therapy. Or go full out and get their special parts operated on and switched around AND up the hormone intake to fully transition (during which time I bet they are non-deployable for a few months).

That is going to be interesting because a male hormone taking chick is gonna have different body fat and muscle mass than a regular chick. Same goes for a guy taking female hormones as opposed to a guy not doing so. To compare them fairly is going to take some well thought out policy backed by data that currently to my knowledge does not exist.

Yes, that will make it trickier, but don't you think surgery and hormones will at least cut out or minimize the fakers who are just trying to slime by with lower PT standards?

**CptJake**

Hordini wrote:
CptJake wrote:
Hordini wrote:

Probably the only fair way to do it would be to allow transgender troops to serve, but base PFT standards purely on biological sex.

Until....

They start hormone therapy. Or go full out and get their special parts operated on and switched around AND up the hormone intake to fully transition (during which time I bet they are non-deployable for a few months).

That is going to be interesting because a male hormone taking chick is gonna have different body fat and muscle mass than a regular chick. Same goes for a guy taking female hormones as opposed to a guy not doing so. To compare them fairly is going to take some well thought out policy backed by data that currently to my knowledge does not exist.

Yes, that will make it trickier, but don't you think surgery and hormones will at least cut out or minimize the fakers who are just trying to slime by with lower PT standards?

I think if I am at risk of being chaptered at 17-18 years I can knock out the 1-2 years necessary to hit 19 and be allowed to stay in to retire without getting my parts rearranged. No one is gonna FORCE a trooper to take hormones or have surgery. That is not gonna happen. There will end up (yes this is speculation) being some way to self declare. Probably have to go to some psych screening. I'm willing to bet (because between my wife an I we have over 40 years active duty to include 5 company commands, a BN command and a BDE command, and several primary staff positions where we have seen a LOT of stunts troopers pull) that if at all possible, some turd ball is gonna self declare and prolong the process to hit the magic number of days. Again, a well crafted and thought out policy will help, but any wiggle room gonna get wiggled through. And this will open up new wiggle room where it previously did not exist. Hell, I can even see it used to mitigate other issues.

JAG Defense Lawyer wrote:My client was a behavior problem because she was trapped in a male body and did not fully understand it until now. Any attempt to chapter her out or court martial her at this point is punishing her for finally realizing who she is

**Peregrine**

CptJake wrote:
They start hormone therapy. Or go full out and get their special parts operated on and switched around AND up the hormone intake to fully transition (during which time I bet they are non-deployable for a few months).

And in that case you can be sure beyond any reasonable doubt that they are in fact transgender and identify legitimately as their stated gender. I can't imagine a plausible scenario where someone who is quite happy with their gender identity decides to change such a fundamental part of who they are with hormones and surgery just to gain a trivial benefit. Maybe for giant piles of money, but not just for an easier fitness test.

**Hordini**

CptJake wrote:
Hordini wrote:
CptJake wrote:
Hordini wrote:

Probably the only fair way to do it would be to allow transgender troops to serve, but base PFT standards purely on biological sex.

Until....

They start hormone therapy. Or go full out and get their special parts operated on and switched around AND up the hormone intake to fully transition (during which time I bet they are non-deployable for a few months).

That is going to be interesting because a male hormone taking chick is gonna have different body fat and muscle mass than a regular chick. Same goes for a guy taking female hormones as opposed to a guy not doing so. To compare them fairly is going to take some well thought out policy backed by data that currently to my knowledge does not exist.

Yes, that will make it trickier, but don't you think surgery and hormones will at least cut out or minimize the fakers who are just trying to slime by with lower PT standards?

I think if I am at risk of being chaptered at 17-18 years I can knock out the 1-2 years necessary to hit 19 and be allowed to stay in to retire without getting my parts rearranged. No one is gonna FORCE a trooper to take hormones or have surgery. That is not gonna happen. There will end up (yes this is speculation) being some way to self declare. Probably have to go to some psych screening. I'm willing to bet (because between my wife an I we have over 40 years active duty to include 5 company commands, a BN command and a BDE command, and several primary staff positions where we have seen a LOT of stunts troopers pull) that if at all possible, some turd ball is gonna self declare and prolong the process to hit the magic number of days. Again, a well crafted and thought out policy will help, but any wiggle room gonna get wiggled through. And this will open up new wiggle room where it previously did not exist. Hell, I can even see it used to mitigate other issues.

JAG Defense Lawyer wrote:My client was a behavior problem because she was trapped in a male body and did not fully understand it until now. Any attempt to chapter her out or court martial her at this point is punishing her for finally realizing who she is

I could see how that might happen. I guess we will find out. It keeps life interesting, at least.

**CptJake**

Peregrine wrote:
CptJake wrote:
They start hormone therapy. Or go full out and get their special parts operated on and switched around AND up the hormone intake to fully transition (during which time I bet they are non-deployable for a few months).

And in that case you can be sure beyond any reasonable doubt that they are in fact transgender and identify legitimately as their stated gender. I can't imagine a plausible scenario where someone who is quite happy with their gender identity decides to change such a fundamental part of who they are with hormones and surgery just to gain a trivial benefit. Maybe for giant piles of money, but not just for an easier fitness test.

Your reply to that quote shows you took it very much out of context. The quote you grabbed was in reply to how to apply APFT standards/body composition standards with the specific I was replying to being:

CptJake wrote:
Hordini wrote:

Probably the only fair way to do it would be to allow transgender troops to serve, but base PFT standards purely on biological sex.

Until....

They start hormone therapy. Or go full out and get their special parts operated on and switched around AND up the hormone intake to fully transition (during which time I bet they are non-deployable for a few months).

That is going to be interesting because a male hormone taking chick is gonna have different body fat and muscle mass than a regular chick. Same goes for a guy taking female hormones as opposed to a guy not doing so. To compare them fairly is going to take some well thought out policy backed by data that currently to my knowledge does not exist.

Implying I think someone would get their parts rearranged to have an easier APFT standard is silly. I implied no such thing.

**Ghazkuul**

theirs an ESTIMATED 700,000 transgender people in the US, Estimated because they have NO IDEA how many their are.....im guessing probably less then that honestly but thats my "estimate"

**Crystal-Maze**

Frazzled wrote:
All two of them.

About time? Come on this is an infinitesimal portion of the US population. Until recently this was classified as a mental disorder (might still be-don't keep up).

I'm fine with it, but this was no great crime against humanity here as in the real world there statistically aren't many.

Because, as everybody knows, groups become less human when there aren't many of them.

**Jihadin**

I highly doubt the military will foot the bill to do a full transgender operation. Once you enlist your either Male or Female. So Transgender who are entering the Armed Services need to be fully aware of the Tape test
Manning was turned over to Federal for them to foot that bill.