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Well, I've given the new Citadel paintbrush range more than a fair shake now, so I thought I'd give a brief update on my thoughts after having used them (not exclusively) for a couple of months -- particularly since there were some real surprises, some pleasant, some not, after I gave some of the brushes a chance.


First, the unexpected happy surprises

The synthetic Glazing brush I actually REALLY like for both glazes and washing only crevices. It kinks (sad panda), like every other synthetic brush. But it holds *just* the right amount of glaze/wash. I find that Kolinsky sable brushes hold too much shade, for instance, when I'm applying a shade to the area around a rivet. I couldn't believe how much I liked the Glaze brush. The kink isn't horrible most of the time (since it's only being used for shades and washes); and the brush is only $4.50 after a discount. Just have 2, and use the kinked one where it doesn't matter. I've used this paintbrush on almost every model that I've painted since it's come out!

The Medium basecoat brush (it's a small filbert) I now own 5 of. It too kinks, but this isn't as bad a thing on flats & filberts, and besides, basecoat brushes don't last long anyhow. This brush is a real champ when basecoating infantry-sized models, and small panels on larger models. This brush is $5.25 after discount, which is more than a really brush at the hobby store, but less than on par with the starting prices of anything that isn't junk at a fine arts store.


Second, the brushes that I knew were going to be good

The drybrushes are all fantastic. The Medium flat drybrush is an awesome addition (it's a lot wider than the old medium). The small one is nice, and the large one is similar to the old large, but with shorter bristles.

It's worth noting that I miss the old range, and still use the old drybrushes in addition to the new ones. The old small drybrush is smaller than the new small (which can be good), and the old large drybrush has longer bristles, which I prefer in some cases. Also, the old small and medium were round. If I *had* to choose, I would take flat ones, but I would rather have both round and flat, as there are use cases for both.


The brushes that were so-so

The Artificer brush is a pain to use for a lot of things, because it's very long, and has a really long, really fine tip. However, I've found that it's really good for highlighting metallic paints, because you only need a tiny bit of metallic paint for it to catch. Yeah, what a waste of an expensive brush, right? But it has done the job pretty well for me, so I can't complain. I don't think I'll buy another though.

The two angled brushes were okay, but not spectacular. You have to pay attention and make sure the bristles don't end up parting; that is, you need to reform a flat edge relatively frequently. I probably will buy more of the Large brushes. It is more useful, I think, than the extra-large. In the extra-large size, I would rather use a traditional flat brush than an angled. The quality is not bad.


Finally, the brushes that I can't stand, starting with the unexpected ones

I retract anything good I ever said about the new wash brushes (other than the glaze brush). It's not so much that the new wash brush is terrible; it's that it's much worse than the old wash brush. It's really apparent once you start using both side-by-side. The old wash brush was some natural hair, never kinked in like, 3 years, and holds much more paint. The new Medium Shade brush is synthetic, and I've already turfed it because the tip is kinked. It doesn't hold a lot of paint, so I didn't like it much anyways.

The new Large Shade brush sounds like a good idea, and it actually works quite well. The problem is that it soaks up TONS of shade in the bristles, and you waste an unreal amount of paint. Plus it's a real effort to clean properly -- as much work, almost, as a large drybrush to clean everything out of it (if you ever want to use it again). The old Shade Brush, or failing that a decent size 3 brush, is better, IMO. And it's not THAT much faster, even on terrain. I also still use an Army Painter Regiment brush for doing smaller/more precise washes, and then the new glaze brush for even more precise washes.

The new round synthetic layer brushes and the small round base brush are junk. There's no way around it. They are just crappy synthetics that are ok (but expensive) to learn on, that will kink and be tossed in the garbage bin. They behave just fine... for like 3 minis, before they kink. These are a HUGE downgrade from the old detail/fine detail brushes (I was never fond of the old standard/base brushes). However, I will say that until they kink, they are really quite easy to use with good snap and all that. I'm just not interested in brushes that have so short a life expectancy.


The two jumbo scenery brushes -- I have not used the scenery brushes for anything. They're still brand new, so I can't say.

Thanks for the write-up, Talys. Your thoughts on these are always worth reading.

Question though, what is "kinking"? I'm unfamiliar. One of my brushes has a tiny little 90 degree flip at the tip, is that it?

You're very welcome!

Yeah, it means the little "flip at the tip", that essentially prevents you from using the brush accurately. It only happens with synthetics. The brush to the right is a barely-used Glazing brush from GW; the brush to the left is an Artist's Loft.

And I am a really religious brush cleaner too. I keep them spotlessly clean, and never abuse them (heck, the glazing brush is only used for precision/detail washes!). I don't think that glazing brush has seen 5 models.



Compare that with 1 year old Kolinsky sable brushes (again, look at the points):

I actually use the glaze brush for extremely fine details and it is amazing for that.

Ah, only one of my Army Painter brushes has had that happen, but I did wonder what it was caused by.
I've been wondering about upgrading my gear for a while, but I'm not particularly skilled or prolific at painting (until recently), so always wondered if it was a waste to do so.

Would you say this sort of thing is a concern/aid whilst still learning, or could I give it a think at the moment?

My theory is that synthetic brushes work like most fabrics. If you force them into a shape, it will hold that shape. For instance, if you press a shirt, it will remain pressed. On the other hand, most natural hairs will revert to their natural shape. For instance, if you have straight hair, and curl it, after some time, it will go back to being straight.

Of course, this is just the thought process going on in my little mind I have no idea what the actual science is behind it.

However, I have owned, in my life, hundreds of paintbrushes, and as far as I can remember, every synthetic brush eventually curls up. All the natural hair brushes I can remember retain their point, although over time, they lose bristles and the point is less sharp and less useful. This assumes you never get paint into the ferule, which will make the bristles stick out in stupid directions no matter what.

Keep in mind that many Army Painter brushes are natural hair (though not Kolinsky). For instance, I really like the Regiment and Character brushes for doing washes, and these are natural hair. They have a designation that separates them; I can't recall what. P3 has some "Studio" brushes that are natural hair too, but I hate them; they don't seem to ever keep a point, even when they're brand new.

Personally, the 2 reasons I use natural hair brushes (mostly) is that (a) they retain the point much, much longer, so it saves me vast sums of money and (b) they hold more paint.

Kolinsky Sable brushes are generally a little *harder* to use than synthetics for beginners, in my opinion, because they generally have less snap, and tend to fray more in the process of painting, requiring you to re-tip. Finally, slightly brushes generally work with metallic paints a little better. So, what I do is cut the edges with a sable round that I use only for metallics, and then I use a old, frayed synthetic to paint between the lines, so to speak.

Thanks, Talys. I appreciate the info. Thus is super helpful for those of us who are not painting experts. It is better to learn from you than buy and test dozens of brushes to learn on my own!

 Talys wrote:
Kolinsky Sable brushes are generally a little *harder* to use than synthetics for beginners, in my opinion, because they generally have less snap, and tend to fray more in the process of painting, requiring you to re-tip. Finally, slightly brushes generally work with metallic paints a little better. So, what I do is cut the edges with a sable round that I use only for metallics, and then I use a old, frayed synthetic to paint between the lines, so to speak.

Honestly this is something I hear about a lot, that natural brushes are "softer".. it may just be how I lay down paint, but I don't tend to notice the resistance of the brush. I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong now.

I've fallen in love with my w&n s7 3. Never really used it before as I'd always stuck to really small brushes. But this thing has an amazing point that can handle fine detail, and holds a huge amount of paint

@Ustrello - Yeah, it's actually a shockingly nice brush. I was honest-to-goodness shocked, because I'd never be able to tell looking at it.

@Riddle of Steel - Really kind words, thanks!

@ButteryCommissar - Keep in mind that there are a huge variety of synthetics, so generalizations can be dangerous. But, generally speaking, if you put paint on a synthetic round brush, and swish it around on a piece of paper, then lift, all the bristles will drop back to approximately its original shape. If you do the same with a natural hair brush, generally speaking, the bristles will stick out every which way.

So, when people say that the synthetics are "harder" they generally mean that the bristles have more snap and spring. But the fibers on cheap brushes are also a harder material. One of the reasons a lot of peeps like the W&N S7 brushes are that they have a lot of snap and retain their shape very well for sable brush.

@kb_lock - I absolutely love my W&N S7's. I tend not to use my size 3 because it holds a little too much paint for me A bunch of paint goes to waste... it's funny, because this would not even come to a tiny rounding error in my hobby spending, but I'm silly frugal when it comes to not wasting paint hahaha. Plus, I sometimes accidentally bump surfaces unintentionally with the big brushes. Also, with basecoating, I tend to use flat brushes.

Small, unrelated tip: after washing it, if you wet a natural hair round brush (with water) and flick it away from you holding the end of the handle, it forms a really nice point (think horse snapping its tail). Then you can use the crevice of your palm to roll it slightly before drying, to help it keep its shape for a very long time.

Ahh. It's very possible that because my background is in papery illustration, I'm reshaping brushes and paying attention to shape without actually noticing, much like how folk rotate a pencil without realising to get different results (try putting a coloured dot on a pencil and occasionally taking note of orientation, it's pointlessly fascinating). I'm not saying I'm good at it, mind.

The synthetic vs natural makes a lot of sense regarding shape retention . I've often wondered about natural oils to keep natural hair conditioned once it's in a brush. If you think about the difference between a stuffed animal and it's living counterpart, the vitality in the fur is so very different... Probably better for painting without a sweaty animal attached, but the mind wanders to strange places.

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
Ahh. It's very possible that because my background is in papery illustration, I'm reshaping brushes and paying attention to shape without actually noticing, much like how folk rotate a pencil without realising to get different results (try putting a coloured dot on a pencil and occasionally taking note of orientation, it's pointlessly fascinating). I'm not saying I'm good at it, mind.

The synthetic vs natural makes a lot of sense regarding shape retention . I've often wondered about natural oils to keep natural hair conditioned once it's in a brush. If you think about the difference between a stuffed animal and it's living counterpart, the vitality in the fur is so very different... Probably better for painting without a sweaty animal attached, but the mind wanders to strange places.

Yeah! Sounds like you're reshaping your brush subconsciously. With the old Citadel brushes, you could get pretty nice results, but the problem was like, every few seconds you had to reshape them or they'd lose their point.

Keeping the oils in your brush is an important part of maintaining them, if you want to maximize their lifespan, too. I find the W&N Brush Cleaner & Restorer the easiest product to use. I even use it on my synthetics, but just as a brush cleaner. Master's soap is good too -- it just doesn't work as well for getting stuff out of the area of the brush really near the ferule (which mucks up a brush if you leave it).

Gah... I wish I had read this before I bought some brushes on Friday. I bought the standard 'base' brush... already kinked. Conversely my 'standard' brush (the one with the orange tip) from about a year ago is still great and holding a sharp point like a champion.

Bought the small layer brush but haven't used it much yet. After the horrible results of this base brush, I'm not hopeful it's going to be any good.

I'm using Raphael 8404's exclusively now and have no ambition to try other brands. I've been maintaining them with the master's brush soap, and occasionally dunking them in regular hair conditioner which seems to bring back those natural oils Buttery Commisar is talking about.

The other thing I do to look after them is to use my cheaper brushes for tasks where I wouldn't notice a difference using the Raphaels like priming, basecoating, varnishing, mixing paints on the palette, and painting on rough surfaces.
By using the 8404's only for layering, glazing & detail work I hope they'll last a long time before losing their points.

Where'd you get them mini?

@Paint_To_Redemption - The small layer brush is junk. There is no kind way to put it. Sorry bro. :( My small base brush also kinked after like, 2 models. Relegate it to jamming leadbelcher into the nooks of a dreadnought or something once it dies.

@Minimachine - My suggestion is to get a second set of 8404's, and once your old set gets gummed up, use those for basecoating. Not varnishing though, or priming, since those get into the ferule and don't come out easily.

@kb_lock - I think a bunch of peeps from Australia like Rosemary and Co, too -- good prices or something?

Ironically in my neck of the woods (west coast Canada), 8404 are the most expensive brush for me >.< Although it's possible I just haven't found a great place to buy them.

kb_lock wrote:
Where'd you get them mini?

I buy them from these guys kb_lock. Their prices are very good and the service is great. They also have Da Vinci brushes which are slightly cheaper but the Raphael's are better.

http://www.tabletopempires.com.au/

 Talys wrote:
@Minimachine - My suggestion is to get a second set of 8404's, and once your old set gets gummed up, use those for basecoating. Not varnishing though, or priming, since those get into the ferule and don't come out easily.

I'm actually using my cheaper brands of Kolinsky Sables for basecoating Talys, but eventually I'll probably pull the trigger on a couple more Raphaels and use those. Not so much due to better results but because they're much nicer to use and anything that makes the painting process easier or more enjoyable is worth it to me.

I really like the Raphael 3/0 for freehand, their smaller brushes just seem too tiny for my taste, but I'm curious about trying a WN S7 000 to see how they compare. Not because the 8404 is lacking, sheer curiosity really.

@minimachine - you will may like the 2/0 better than the 3/0 from W&N. The 2/0 has a longer bristle, and I find it about the same precision & control as the 3/0 while holding more paint.

Nothing beats the 8404 6/0 for the super fine lines, though, IMO.

 Talys wrote:
@minimachine - you will may like the 2/0 better than the 3/0 from W&N. The 2/0 has a longer bristle, and I find it about the same precision & control as the 3/0 while holding more paint.

Nothing beats the 8404 6/0 for the super fine lines, though, IMO.

Cheers Talys, I will pick up a 00 at some point in that case.

I've found my Raphael 5/0 doesn't have a significantly finer point than the 3/0 but holds far less paint (and its much harder to prevent paint going up past the ferrule) but haven't tried the 6/0 so perhaps that's a different story.
With any of these brushes I find the biggest challenge is learning how to judge when the tip is making only minimal contact with the surface, and to avoid pushing down on the brush as I round corners. Otherwise the lines end up fattening in all sorts of unattractive ways. Taking an enormous amount of care to paint slowly seems to help but at least to someone of my modest skill level it feels like freehand mistakes are unavoidable to some degree which I think is why many miniature painters avoid freehand altogether.

Perhaps this isn't the correct thread to discuss it but I'd love to hear more about your freehand experiences.

Minimachine, you're absolutely right: these fine brushes don't hold much paint. I usually use them to paint fine details like eyes or letters, where I don't want too much paint (because a little runoff can be a disaster)

My freehand is largely limited to geometric shapes, letters, and insignia -- I'm not nearly artistic enough to do a freehand painting

This double-lined lettering was done with a 6/0 Raph, though there is a better one that I've done since.

I've gotta say thanks to you all for how useful this topic has been.
I've also realised that the brushes I used to get through on an almost monthly basis, hated using and blamed myself for being useless with were (admittedly high end) synthetics that were recommended religiously to me by a friend.
Since I came back to painting minis, for ease of access, I've bought Army Painter and some mid-range German sable brushes and enjoyed myself a lot more. Obviously, I can't solely credit the hairy sticks, but I think it's definitely a factor that I hadn't cottoned onto.

None of those synthetics survived 7 years of moderate use. Either I'm a complete slob, or they just don't mix with me very well. My other brushes are fine going on 2-3 years now.