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What would have happened if during the heresy one of the prime marks simply did not choose a side and sat out the war near the halo stars or Eastern branches. Assuming that he fortify his little pocket Empire well and maintain this level of technology did not antagonize the Imperium at large and did not get himself killed, could he and his kingdom still exist? Or would chaos crusades or imperial task forces have eventually wiped him out? I'm imagining him as a non threat to the imperium, not expanding beyond his initial holdings of 500 or so worlds.

The Imperium is a with us or against us organization.

If by some miracle he was left to his own devices, sooner or later daggers would be getting pointed his way, for what he or his little empire has.

You know what happened with to 2 and 11....

I think the problem for the imperium is that if you go after the guy and the way starts to turn against him, he's going to turn to Chaos, and then you've got another demon primarch in your hands.

 Silverthorne wrote:
I think the problem for the imperium is that if you go after the guy and the way starts to turn against him, he's going to turn to Chaos, and then you've got another demon primarch in your hands.

He was not loyal to the Emperor, and therefore he has already fallen to Chaos anyway as far as the Imperium is concerned.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
I think the problem for the imperium is that if you go after the guy and the way starts to turn against him, he's going to turn to Chaos, and then you've got another demon primarch in your hands.

He was not loyal to the Emperor, and therefore he has already fallen to Chaos anyway as far as the Imperium is concerned.

This. Except that he'd probably be treated more akin to how the Angels who straddled the fence in the Christian War in Heaven - stripped of his powers and forced to live a hellish existence wherein he can never progress and will always be inferior to his human brethren, who want to murder him.

I see it more as operating on a non malignant tumor. Maybe it's annoying, but its not nearly as threatening to you as the operation to remove it would be.

 Silverthorne wrote:
I see it more as operating on a non malignant tumor. Maybe it's annoying, but its not nearly as threatening to you as the operation to remove it would be.

Not that threatening an operation. We have reserves.

For a 500 world pocket Empire lead by a primarch? Imperium hasn't been able to put the Tau down for the count. So... don't concur, doctor.

 Silverthorne wrote:
For a 500 world pocket Empire lead by a primarch? Imperium hasn't been able to put the Tau down for the count. So... don't concur, doctor.

IoM's proably with the Tau isn't lack of capability it's that there are a ton of other things. they gear up to fight the Tau and... TYRANIDS! they finish the Tyrandis off, and NECRONS! handle the encrons and abbaddon called a black crusade, ohh and them Tyranids are back.


none of that was an issue in M31

Not a threat? Having an unaligned primarch is a huge threat to the entire IoM. Having a being of that much power who is neither a near living god who fought for their literal god emperor father or an unforgivable traitor who are the worst thing that most of the people are told exists (unless they join the guard and see all the other terrible stuff out there). The tau aren't a huge threat and the IoM mobilized a huge force to try and wipe them out just because they accepted humans as members into their society even though they were filthy xenos. Having a place like that that is also ruled by humans? Even the hint of an alternative to living under the thumb of the imperium that might be "better" in some way would have the The Lords of Terra writing orders of exterminatus so fast that even eldar shining spears would say "woah, slow down there mon'kegh".

 Silverthorne wrote:
What would have happened if during the heresy one of the prime marks simply did not choose a side and sat out the war near the halo stars or Eastern branches. Assuming that he fortify his little pocket Empire well and maintain this level of technology did not antagonize the Imperium at large and did not get himself killed, could he and his kingdom still exist? Or would chaos crusades or imperial task forces have eventually wiped him out? I'm imagining him as a non threat to the imperium, not expanding beyond his initial holdings of 500 or so worlds.

You are either with the Emperor, or you are his bitter foe.

The Tau aren't really a threat in military terms, so aren't a major priority during a period where the Imperium is effectively besieged.

While you're right that a small, un-aligned human pocket empire wouldn't be a threat militarily either, politically, it would be a HUGE threat to stability for the Imperium as it would set a terrible precedent, especially being led by a rebellious primarch. You say un-aligned, but the attitude towards colonies then was "lost or found". As in every human settlement was part of the Imperium, and was just waiting to be discovered. If you rejected that, you were a secessionist.

For one of the Emperor's sons to be in open rebellion, and to be left unmolested, would undermine the very nature of the Great Crusade. And this was a time when the Imperium's power was at its apex and they were on the offensive. If the Tau were encountered in a similar state of development then, they would have been completely annihilated just on principle. Taking out pocket empires was routine.

The only real plausible exception would be if he was based in the Halo Stars as you mention, as this area is outside the reach of the Astronomicon, and was outside the ambition of the Great Crusade. If the Primarch was believed dead, an somehow escaped to this region, it's possible he could survive undetected. If his existence was known though, huge resources would be mobilised to either eliminate or recover him, depending on the circumstances of his fall. The Halo Stars are incredibly sparse and inhospitable though, so any empire would be very small, and life would be very difficult.

Bear in mind though, if the edict of obliteration was completely successful (as in even the Lords of Terra and current Space Marine chapters are unaware of missing primarchs) then he would be seen as an imposter, and heretic of the worst kind, and treated accordingly.

Basically, a Primarch who wasn't "with" the Emperor's plans would find himself Russed in short order.

 Silverthorne wrote:
What would have happened if during the heresy one of the prime marks simply did not choose a side and sat out the war near the halo stars or Eastern branches. Assuming that he fortify his little pocket Empire well and maintain this level of technology did not antagonize the Imperium at large and did not get himself killed, could he and his kingdom still exist? Or would chaos crusades or imperial task forces have eventually wiped him out? I'm imagining him as a non threat to the imperium, not expanding beyond his initial holdings of 500 or so worlds.

If you are not working to stop the forces of chaos then you are betraying the IoM whether you are fighting with Chaos or not.

So if you went off in a corner and didnt fight anyone, you better hope that Chaos wins, because if they dont, the IoM will eventually come for you.

All of the traitor primarch realized this. Many wanted to just run off and do their own thing, but if they had the would have eventually lost, so instead they opted to fight against Terra.

I suspect that a certain Magic-using Primarch would have preferred to be 'unaligned' once his overtures to the Emperor were rejected. As others have so eloquently described, he got 'Russed'. The entire point of the Imperium was to unify humankind. The IOM could not and would not tolerate any 'independent' humans, as the Great Crusade demonstrated over and over.

My two cents.

What exactly does unaligned mean? Wouldnt sanguinus have counted as unaligned before the emperor found him? He couldnt have been considered evil or a traitor for what he had done. The emperor embraced him fully upon sight, he wasnt upset at him for not knowing his origins.

Sure he could continue to exist. The imperium's policy and position is he is a traitor to be wiped out, but due to being pressured by more immediate concerns never manages to get a large enough force in the area to do anything about it. It's on the to do list but keeps getting bumped down. It could play out something like:

The imperium's first effort was thwarted by a huge Waaaagh which arrived at the system just after the invading force trapping them between ork and traitor. After a valiant effort the orks were destroyed, but the fleet and invasion force was critically weakened. The tattered remains of the fleet returned to their home base and fleet officers were executed for their failure. Eldar machinations are suspected to have influenced the timing, size and location of the Waaaagh, but this has not been confirmed.

A second effort to subjugate the traitor primary failed due to treachery. As the fleet approached the primarch's system, several key ships were sabotaged, and many others defected. In the chaos, Eldar boarding parties managed to disable several other ships before disappearing back into the webway. Eldar motives are unknown. Having learned from the fate of the command of the previous invasion fleet, the commanders in this invasion pressed the attack, but were quickly defeated. According to the last dispatch all ships were destroyed or captured. The fates of several loyalist marine detachments are unknown.

Following the second attempt to subdue the traitor increased chaos activity in the region has added an additional buffer shielding the traitors from the empire. It is believed the traitor has turned to chaos. Those suggesting he may be fighting chaos have been determined to be heretics and executed.

No further attempts have been made to return the system to the emperor's guidance. No verified Intel has been obtained from the system since the second fleet was lost. Plans have been drawn up to launch a third crusade, but the required forces have never been marshaled despite numerous attempts to do so. Distractions small and large have repeatedly drawn forces tasked with participating in the crusade into other conflicts preventing the crusade from ever reaching the critical mass necessary to have a reasonable expectation of victory.

So there are some vague precedents...

IN uremembered empire, the Ultramarines and Roboute Guillmann does this exact thing if I'm not mistaken. They still run Ultramar as a mini-empire within IoM.

Nighthaunter didnt go with chaos to EoT and chose to be killed by an assassing Apocalypse Now style.

Theoretically Alpharion or Omegon could be running some small empire not completly on chaos' side. As might the Alpha Legion.

Lufgt Huron was originally more of a Pirate Lord, which is how an "unaligned" space marine faction (Primarch or no) would operate, seeing as how they would just become loyalists to Terra if they were not in some way also antagonizing IoM.

well, to be fair, the white scars were neutral until they were attacked, the UM were faux-neutral for a small portion, the TS were neutral throughout the entire conflict, minus the burning of Prospero and Russ and Horus being dicks. Quite a common theme really.

Nighthaunter didnt go with chaos to EoT and chose to be killed by an assassing Apocalypse Now style.

His throne room was paved with still-living screaming faces. That's Sorcery right there. Curze didn't need to go to the EoT to side with Chaos, he had sided with Chaos right there at home.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
What exactly does unaligned mean? Wouldnt sanguinus have counted as unaligned before the emperor found him? He couldnt have been considered evil or a traitor for what he had done. The emperor embraced him fully upon sight, he wasnt upset at him for not knowing his origins.

The funny thing is, Sanguinius probably would have ended up a full-blown God of the Warp if not for the Emperor discovering him. Basically, the Emperor could have had a buddy in his fight against Chaos if he'd of just held off with Sangy.

 Silverthorne wrote:
What would have happened if during the heresy one of the prime marks simply did not choose a side and sat out the war near the halo stars or Eastern branches. Assuming that he fortify his little pocket Empire well and maintain this level of technology did not antagonize the Imperium at large and did not get himself killed, could he and his kingdom still exist? Or would chaos crusades or imperial task forces have eventually wiped him out? I'm imagining him as a non threat to the imperium, not expanding beyond his initial holdings of 500 or so worlds.

Oh you mean like Lion El'Johnson and Roboute Guilliman?

*cough* El'Johnson *cough* closet traitor *cough*

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
*cough* El'Johnson *cough* closet traitor *cough*

I'd say that his treatment of the traitors on Diamat speaks volumes about his opinion of treachery. I believe that he, after massacering a bunch of Sons of Horus and blowing their fleet out of orbit and destroying their Imperial Army detatchmen, said "such is the fate of all traitors!"

Mayhaps he doest protest too much?

 dusara217 wrote:

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
*cough* El'Johnson *cough* closet traitor *cough*

I'd say that his treatment of the traitors on Diamat speaks volumes about his opinion of treachery. I believe that he, after massacering a bunch of Sons of Horus and blowing their fleet out of orbit and destroying their Imperial Army detatchmen, said "such is the fate of all traitors!"

The Lion wasnt an (open) traitor, but many of his actions speak to ulterior and self-serving motives. We know he wanted to be Warmaster and that he saw the Heresy as his opportunity to replace Horus in that role, how far do you think he was willing to go to achieve that?

chaos0xomega wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
*cough* El'Johnson *cough* closet traitor *cough*

I'd say that his treatment of the traitors on Diamat speaks volumes about his opinion of treachery. I believe that he, after massacering a bunch of Sons of Horus and blowing their fleet out of orbit and destroying their Imperial Army detatchmen, said "such is the fate of all traitors!"

The Lion wasnt an (open) traitor, but many of his actions speak to ulterior and self-serving motives. We know he wanted to be Warmaster and that he saw the Heresy as his opportunity to replace Horus in that role, how far do you think he was willing to go to achieve that?

Well, yeah, he was a political mastermind. The HH was the perfect opportunity to rise in stature whilst also serving the Emperor.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
*cough* El'Johnson *cough* closet traitor *cough*

I'd say that his treatment of the traitors on Diamat speaks volumes about his opinion of treachery. I believe that he, after massacering a bunch of Sons of Horus and blowing their fleet out of orbit and destroying their Imperial Army detatchmen, said "such is the fate of all traitors!"

Why then would he be hesistant to acccept the role of the new Emperor by Robute in "The Unremembered Empire" and even prefering that Sanguinius takes the role. That does not really seem like the actions of a man who wants to be warmaster/Big boss man.

 Reality-Torrent wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
*cough* El'Johnson *cough* closet traitor *cough*

I'd say that his treatment of the traitors on Diamat speaks volumes about his opinion of treachery. I believe that he, after massacering a bunch of Sons of Horus and blowing their fleet out of orbit and destroying their Imperial Army detatchmen, said "such is the fate of all traitors!"

Why then would he be hesistant to acccept the role of the new Emperor by Robute in "The Unremembered Empire" and even prefering that Sanguinius takes the role. That does not really seem like the actions of a man who wants to be warmaster/Big boss man.

He was still loyal to the Emperor, he didn't want to be the Emperor, he wanted to be his right hand man.