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My FLGS is using Wounds to 'balance' armies. To me this means spam the highest expected damage output per wound, and win games. Maybe you take some chaff or support, maybe you summon some stuff. Blah blah finesse.

What is the highest average damage output per wound?

I haven't looked many armies, but ogor maneaters (w pistols, in cc) and dark aelf executioners seem pretty close to 1:1 (wounds to damage). Anything out there blow that outta the water? Anything exist which torpedos the approach?

Apologies if this analysis has already been done, I couldn't find it.

I don't think there's been a lot of mathhammer done for AoS yet. Looks like it's up to you if you want to roll everyone!

Out of curiosity, are there limitations on your force (factions, armies, etc) outside of wound counts? Also, what models do you actually own? I hope you aren't planning on proxying your army for maximum potency or something. :s

Take a look at the ranged units that can still do close combat well.

A really good example are the new Sigmarite Judicators. If you give them crossbolters, they can shoot three times and still fight pretty well in close combat.

Plus, the rocket launcher adds a way for them to throw out some mortal wounds.

overtninja wrote:

Out of curiosity, are there limitations on your force (factions, armies, etc) outside of wound counts? Also, what models do you actually own? I hope you aren't planning on proxying your army for maximum potency or something. :s

No other limitations so far. So I plan to proxy goblins as Lords of Change! I play what I want!

Seriously, I have 3000+ point armies for 7 8th ed factions. I'll probably stick to components of my ogres for AoS, cuz skirmishing with 100+ models sounds annoying. Maximum potency is likely tied to summoning schenanigans... but I have extreme prejudice against summoning mechanics in a game with a wound (or point) limit. "Oh, I see you have a limit. Wouldn't it be a shame if it were to be CIRCUMVENTED."


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 odinsgrandson wrote:

A really good example are the new Sigmarite Judicators. If you give them crossbolters, they can shoot three times and still fight pretty well in close combat.

If my math is right boltstormer judicators have about a 2:1 (2 to 5/6) wound to expected damage ratio, assuming they are in CC and have not moved so rapid firing. So about half as good as maneaters/executioners by that metric. Any other shooting units to look at? I was impressed with xbow dwarves, who have a 2:1 ratio at 20" range, but this and similar units drop off dramatically if you have anything that closes to within 3" quickly.

Edit: to convey proper scorn for boltguns in fantasy.

I like your view towards summoning within the game! I'm playing Night Goblins as I love the fluff and they're fun to play. The games I've seen with summoning were just ridiculous. Then again, I saw a Daemon army get completely blown away by a guy playing Empire as the stacked shooting bonuses were even more ridiculous… The Daemon players were so pissed off, but there was really no fun in the game at all.

As it's a Mathhammer thread, the Empire 'Riflemen'(?) were hitting on 2+, wounding on 2+ (both re-rollable) with a -2 rend. They could also fire 'overwatch' without penalty.

Flamers and exaulted flamers.

Stupidly good.

 slowclinic wrote:

As it's a Mathhammer thread, the Empire 'Riflemen'(?) were hitting on 2+, wounding on 2+ (both re-rollable) with a -2 rend. They could also fire 'overwatch' without penalty.

Hadn't read those yet. Empire General with 20+ handgunners. Pretty much 1:1 wounds to damage, with unlimited uses of 'overwatch'. My read is that its 3+ 2+ on overwatch, cuz the 'steady aim' ability is negated by a unit successfully charging (within 3"). Where's rend -2 come from? I only see -1. Still, pretty brutal.


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 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Flamers and exaulted flamers.

Stupidly good.

HawaiiMatt! good to see you on this side of the apocalyps(igmar). Flamers and E.Flamers also 1:1 or better, without even considering melee. Also, they fly now? Is that new?

kooshlord wrote:

 slowclinic wrote:

As it's a Mathhammer thread, the Empire 'Riflemen'(?) were hitting on 2+, wounding on 2+ (both re-rollable) with a -2 rend. They could also fire 'overwatch' without penalty.

Hadn't read those yet. Empire General with 20+ handgunners. Pretty much 1:1 wounds to damage, with unlimited uses of 'overwatch'. My read is that its 3+ 2+ on overwatch, cuz the 'steady aim' ability is negated by a unit successfully charging (within 3"). Where's rend -2 come from? I only see -1. Still, pretty brutal.


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 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Flamers and exaulted flamers.

Stupidly good.

HawaiiMatt! good to see you on this side of the apocalyps(igmar). Flamers and E.Flamers also 1:1 or better, without even considering melee. Also, they fly now? Is that new?

The thing with flamers is that they are likely to also get the first shot off. Movement 9 fly and 18" range gives them the reach to alpha strike.
I had a unit of 3 exaulted flamers kill 16 shades in a single volley.

Ripperdactyls are pretty good bang for their 3 wounds. 3 claw attacks and 1 beak attack but if the blot toad is close enough that becomes 3 beak attacks. Beak attacks get to attack again if they hit and you keep rolling until you finally miss with all attacks. If you swoop down at your opponent you get to reroll hits. There's also some skinks riding them as if anyone cares.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Flamers and exaulted flamers.

Stupidly good.

I will agree with this. From the games that I have seen, these things are stupid good for their wound count. They don't come with any of the limiting keywords (monster, hero, warmachine), fast movement speed with fly, 6 ranged attacks that deal d3 wounds at 18", and then a large number melee attacks. Not just that, but if you cause some wounds with that shooting attack there is a very good chance you get to deal another free d3 mortal wounds from the flame rule. Sure 1 out of 6 times they get to heal some wounds but who cares if they are one wound models. If you aren't playing with some kind of comp to specifically limit them other than wounds, they will easily be one of the best units in the game for their damage output to wound ratio.

Night gobos....... Hide any number of fanatics in a unit, the fanatics are plain and simply mean. d6 attacks each, 4+, 3+ ,-2 rend. They are squishy but considering you can have any number of fanatics....

Flamers can put out a hurting, but I would have to say that the seeker cav have a scary alpha strike. 4 Attacks per wound and 2 of those are rend -1 that can generate more attacks, and huge move and huge run then charge. On average they have a 31 inch threat range.

sainted75 wrote:
Night gobos....... Hide any number of fanatics in a unit, the fanatics are plain and simply mean. d6 attacks each, 4+, 3+ ,-2 rend. They are squishy but considering you can have any number of fanatics....

Fanatics have something like 1:2 wounds to expected damage. But both they and their night goblins minders are a wound each, and if the night goblins minders die, the fanatics are auto-destroyed. I see equal wounds in flamers killing them all at range.


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 jmpnfool wrote:
Flamers can put out a hurting, but I would have to say that the seeker cav have a scary alpha strike. 4 Attacks per wound and 2 of those are rend -1 that can generate more attacks, and huge move and huge run then charge. On average they have a 31 inch threat range.

4 attacks per (2) wounds, and an expected damage ratio of 2:1 (wounds to damage). They get in fast, and die. Unless they go crazy generating attacks.

kooshlord wrote:

sainted75 wrote:
Night gobos....... Hide any number of fanatics in a unit, the fanatics are plain and simply mean. d6 attacks each, 4+, 3+ ,-2 rend. They are squishy but considering you can have any number of fanatics....

Fanatics have something like 1:2 wounds to expected damage. But both they and their night goblins minders are a wound each, and if the night goblins minders die, the fanatics are auto-destroyed. I see equal wounds in flamers killing them all at range.


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 jmpnfool wrote:
Flamers can put out a hurting, but I would have to say that the seeker cav have a scary alpha strike. 4 Attacks per wound and 2 of those are rend -1 that can generate more attacks, and huge move and huge run then charge. On average they have a 31 inch threat range.

4 attacks per (2) wounds, and an expected damage ratio of 2:1 (wounds to damage). They get in fast, and die. Unless they go crazy generating attacks.

Ah Yes they do have 2 wounds, my app just updated. I feel bad for the people I ran them against, I had waaay too many wounds on the table.

A unit of 3 ripperdactyls from the skink formation does something like 35-40 wounds on the turn they charge. And to charge, you place them anywhere on the table, within 3" of the enemy.
Extra attacks, re-rolls to hit and wound, and successful wound rolls giving you more attacks.

It's crazy.

On the other end of the spectrum, I'm extremely impressed by Tomb King Necropolis Knights. At first they seem to have modest movement and expected damage vs. wounds stats, as at 5 wounds each the models "cost" a lot, but they have amazing abilities and synergies:

* For starters, their banner heals an entire 5 wound model each turn. Compared to the normal D6 or D3 wounds on other TK units, that's already huge.

* They have both the deathrattle and the skeleton keywords, making them valid targets for a staggering mix of VC/TK abilities. Most significantly, VC necromancers can use Vanhel's Dance Macabre to give them a second CC attack, and a TK tomb herald in range lets them heal another 5 wound model each turn. Then there are loads of other less potent abilities (TK command ability, litch priest spell, etc.) that can be stacked too.

* All death wizards can add a model to the unit, and depending on comp rules you might be more likely to get away with that than with summoning entire new units.

The Necrosphynx is also pretty fearsome - huge range, high expected damage output with a lot of it at rend -3, halves all incoming damage, and death wizards can to heal them (particularly important given stats based on wounds and the fact that more direct summoning might be frowned upon). The high rend makes it especially efficient vs. tough foes - beating flamer efficiency against 4+ saves while having similar alpha strike potential given its charge rules.

It's somewhat tough to do this because you really want to look at number of wounds versus expected damage output over the entire course of the game AND what you're fighting against.

For example, a highly mobile ranged cavalry unit like High Elf Ellyrian Reavers will absolutely destroy an equivalent wound count of slow foot soldiers over the course of a game. The foot soldiers will never get into combat as the reavers are way too mobile and can almost effortlessly stay out of range of a charge. The same Reavers are almost useless against highly armored assault cavalry. They don't do well in combat and lose some of their shooting advantage if they're within 3" of an enemy.