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 DoomMouse wrote:

What are people doing to handle daemon hordes and specifically plague bearers.

I was tempted to take 3 mortar teams and 2 wyverns to thin them out but not sure if the -1 and -2 takes its toll.

A catachan infantry blob with straken and a priest can also dish out the pain. If they charge you to stop a 10-man infantry squad firing, you can use 'fix bayonets' to attack them in your next movement phase, with potentially up to 32 attacks for a single infantry squad . If the stars align you could use 'consolidate squads' to make that 10 man squad they tri-pointed and make it into 20-man. Then with straken, a priest and 'fix bayonets' the unit will dish out a theoretical 128 S4 attacks from fighting in both the shooting and fight phase. That should kill a few.

At 32 attacks per squad the answer is to bait them into a doomed screen and counter charge with multiple squads.

I'm thinking of breaking mono guard out to include skitari vanguards. 2 cheap tech priests to repair tanks and 3 vanguards squads. The -1 toughness in CC would drop plague bearers and orks down to t3.

That's actually a really good thought - a few units of -1 to hit vanguard would be likely ignored in favour of killing the guardsmen. That'd be hilarious when catachans just rip apart intercessors and orks like they're eldar

Think I'd struggle to justify them taking up a whole detachment slot though, generally find I need 3 battalions to fit in all the infantry I want haha

 MacPhail wrote:

ghenghis_Ken wrote:
Am I right that this doesn't apply to Auxilia units? I can throw Bullgryns in with a Tempestus Battalion without disrupting Stormtroopers?

The detachment with the bullgryns would not have the storm troopers doctrine as bullgryns do not have the military tempestus keyword. This is only an issue with the MT regiment.

The detachment with the bullgryns would not have the storm troopers doctrine as bullgryns do not have the military tempestus keyword. This is only an issue with the MT regiment.

You can have Militarum Tempestus detachments that still gain the benefit of their doctrine when they include units from the Advisors and Auxillia list.
As per Vigilus FAQ, a Militarum Tempestus detachment is one that benefits from the Storm Troopers doctrine.

The only way to benefit from this doctrine is to have all MT units. But, then you can add Advisors and Auxillia, in the exact same way that one can add them to a standard regiment. (This is raw, you reading it into a different context doesn’t work).

Why? Because otherwise it would be impossible to make a Tempestus Drop Force Valkyrie, and those are clearly intended to be made, and they don’t get any special exception to the rules to do this, so all the units from the Advisors and Auxillia list can be included.

And, before you bring it up, no, you can’t put your Valkyries in a Flyer detachments with the Militarum Tempestus keyword, as to be a Militarum Tempestus detachment, capable of being selected to be a Tempestus Drop Force, you need to have the benefit of the doctrine, as per the FAQ. Going by the common rules misinterpretation, this would be impossible, and there would be no Tempestus Drop Force Valkyries.

These are the rules. Read RAW correctly an don’t twist it. It works the same way a standard regiment can have Advisors and Auxillia units.

 DoomMouse wrote:
That's actually a really good thought - a few units of -1 to hit vanguard would be likely ignored in favour of killing the guardsmen. That'd be hilarious when catachans just rip apart intercessors and orks like they're eldar

Think I'd struggle to justify them taking up a whole detachment slot though, generally find I need 3 battalions to fit in all the infantry I want haha

The difficulty with this idea is the HQ units would want vehicles to repair.

What would be even more hilarious is t3 units would be wounded on a 2+ like they were being smacked around with s6, but most melee t3 units are kamikaze units.

 Peregrine wrote:
No it doesn't. It says that MT units do not gain a doctrine unless the entire detachment is MT, it says nothing about non-MT benefiting from the "storm troopers" doctrine. If you create a custom regiment using the "storm troopers" doctrine you are not MT and nothing in that section applies.

The section would apply as. pg 132 of the codex says that "Military Tempestus units do not themselves benefit from any Regimental Doctrine unless every unit in that Detachment is from the Militarum Tempestus." every unit from the militarum tempestus is intended to mean scions, tauroxes, and primes not basilisk that you gave the MT keyword.

further evidence is on the same page under the Regimental Doctrine portion, "units in an Astra Militarum detachment... gain a Regimental Doctrine, so long as evey unit in that Detachment (apart from the exceptions noted opposite) is drawn from the same regiment." the noted exception on the opposite page is the MT. Why would they go through the trouble of making such a distinction for an MT regiment, if the rules are essentially the same for every other regiment? that section doesn't exist just to punish mixed detachments with scions, it exists to make sure that only pure MT detachments( scions) have access to the storm troopers doctrine.

 Peregrine wrote:

It makes perfect sense because they aren't Militarius™ Trademarkus™ $cions™ crewing those units. It's soldiers from a standard regiment whose tactics are best represented by adding additional to-hit rolls on 6s at half range. That's why they don't have the Militarius™ Trademarkus™ stratagems or relics or special order or keyword.

From the lore perspective, In your custom regiment why are the guardsmen and basilisks better storm troopers than scions and tauroxes? pg. 61 of the codex specifically makes a distinction between Scions and the average grunt: "unlike the guardsmen of the Astra Militarum, Scions endure a brutally uncompromising training regime, ensuring that only the most skilled and resolute amongst then ever see battle." why even have a schola progenium if any custom regiment can churn out scion-level infantrymen?

ghenghis_Ken wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
No it doesn't. It says that MT units do not gain a doctrine unless the entire detachment is MT, it says nothing about non-MT benefiting from the "storm troopers" doctrine. If you create a custom regiment using the "storm troopers" doctrine you are not MT and nothing in that section applies.

The section would apply as. pg 132 of the codex says that "Military Tempestus units do not themselves benefit from any Regimental Doctrine unless every unit in that Detachment is from the Militarum Tempestus." every unit from the militarum tempestus is intended to mean scions, tauroxes, and primes not basilisk that you gave the MT keyword.

further evidence is on the same page under the Regimental Doctrine portion, "units in an Astra Militarum detachment... gain a Regimental Doctrine, so long as evey unit in that Detachment (apart from the exceptions noted opposite) is drawn from the same regiment." the noted exception on the opposite page is the MT. Why would they go through the trouble of making such a distinction for an MT regiment, if the rules are essentially the same for every other regiment? that section doesn't exist just to punish mixed detachments with scions, it exists to make sure that only pure MT detachments( scions) have access to the storm troopers doctrine.

 Peregrine wrote:

It makes perfect sense because they aren't Militarius™ Trademarkus™ $cions™ crewing those units. It's soldiers from a standard regiment whose tactics are best represented by adding additional to-hit rolls on 6s at half range. That's why they don't have the Militarius™ Trademarkus™ stratagems or relics or special order or keyword.

From the lore perspective, In your custom regiment why are the guardsmen and basilisks better storm troopers than scions and tauroxes? pg. 61 of the codex specifically makes a distinction between Scions and the average grunt: "unlike the guardsmen of the Astra Militarum, Scions endure a brutally uncompromising training regime, ensuring that only the most skilled and resolute amongst then ever see battle." why even have a schola progenium if any custom regiment can churn out scion-level infantrymen?

Read my thing above about Tempestus Drop Force Valkyries. The paragraph in the book is just to clarify about how they aren’t like regular regiments getting Militarum Tempestus units. Militarum Tempestus still can take Advisors and Auxillia list units without losing their doctrine’s benefits.

ghenghis_Ken wrote:
Page 132 says you do not benefit from the storm troopers doctrine unless every unit from the detatchment is from the military tempestus.

Page 3 of the vigilus defiant designers commentary says that a military tempestus detachment is one with the storm troopers doctrine, ie all from the military tempestus.

It doesn't make much lore sense as scions actually operate tauroxes but crewing basilisks and baneblades seems like quite the stretch. And basilisk generally aren't advancing and "storming" much either

I don't see it saying that in my codex.

Militarum Tempestus
MILITARUM TEMPESTUS units can
be included in an ASTRA MILITARUM
Detachment without preventing other
units in that Detachment from gaining
a Regimental Doctrine. Note, however,
that the MILITARUM TEMPESTUS
units do not themselves benefit from any
Regimental Doctrine unless every unit in that
Detachment is from the Militarum Tempestus
(in which case they will gain the Storm
Troopers doctrine).

That's what it says. Its says that MT don't get a doctrine unless every unit in the detachment is MT, and then the doctrine they get is Storm Troopers. This doesn't preclude other units from choosing storm trooper doctrine to represent their custom regiment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ghenghis_Ken wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
No it doesn't. It says that MT units do not gain a doctrine unless the entire detachment is MT, it says nothing about non-MT benefiting from the "storm troopers" doctrine. If you create a custom regiment using the "storm troopers" doctrine you are not MT and nothing in that section applies.

The section would apply as. pg 132 of the codex says that "Military Tempestus units do not themselves benefit from any Regimental Doctrine unless every unit in that Detachment is from the Militarum Tempestus." every unit from the militarum tempestus is intended to mean scions, tauroxes, and primes not basilisk that you gave the MT keyword.

further evidence is on the same page under the Regimental Doctrine portion, "units in an Astra Militarum detachment... gain a Regimental Doctrine, so long as evey unit in that Detachment (apart from the exceptions noted opposite) is drawn from the same regiment." the noted exception on the opposite page is the MT. Why would they go through the trouble of making such a distinction for an MT regiment, if the rules are essentially the same for every other regiment? that section doesn't exist just to punish mixed detachments with scions, it exists to make sure that only pure MT detachments( scions) have access to the storm troopers doctrine.

 Peregrine wrote:

It makes perfect sense because they aren't Militarius™ Trademarkus™ $cions™ crewing those units. It's soldiers from a standard regiment whose tactics are best represented by adding additional to-hit rolls on 6s at half range. That's why they don't have the Militarius™ Trademarkus™ stratagems or relics or special order or keyword.

From the lore perspective, In your custom regiment why are the guardsmen and basilisks better storm troopers than scions and tauroxes? pg. 61 of the codex specifically makes a distinction between Scions and the average grunt: "unlike the guardsmen of the Astra Militarum, Scions endure a brutally uncompromising training regime, ensuring that only the most skilled and resolute amongst then ever see battle." why even have a schola progenium if any custom regiment can churn out scion-level infantrymen?

You do mpt give Basilisks the MT keyword. You give them a custom keyword for which you choose the Storm Trooper Doctrine as their trait. its not the same thing.

Having looked further into the MT custom regiment debate I see that it has been an ongoing argument for over a year. Most people seem to have made up their minds and i'm not going to pretend that I can change that.

personally, I don't agree with the RAW argument for custom regiments, however, i'll wait for a GW clarification.

In the meantime FLG hasn't been allowing for this and i'll err on their side as I want to compete in their tournaments.

ghenghis_Ken wrote:
The section would apply as. pg 132 of the codex says that "Military Tempestus units do not themselves benefit from any Regimental Doctrine unless every unit in that Detachment is from the Militarum Tempestus." every unit from the militarum tempestus is intended to mean scions, tauroxes, and primes not basilisk that you gave the MT keyword.

Again, you do not give them the MT keyword. You give them the Peregrine'sRegiment keyword, which is a custom regiment following GW's instructions to select a doctrine ("storm troopers", in this case) that best represents their fighting style. Nothing in that section on p132 says anything about Peregrine'sRegiment units losing the Peregrine'sRegiment doctrine unless every unit in the detachment has the MT keyword.

Why would they go through the trouble of making such a distinction for an MT regiment, if the rules are essentially the same for every other regiment?

Because they aren't the same. Units with the MT keyword can take the MT relics, use the MT stratagems, be included in the MT special detachment, receive the MT special order, etc. A Peregrine'sRegiment unit can not do those things, it just gets to fire an extra shot for every to-hit roll of 6+ at half range or less.

In your custom regiment why are the guardsmen and basilisks better storm troopers than scions and tauroxes?

They aren't. For example, a Peregrine'sRegiment infantry squad gets to fire extra shots on a 6+ (an ability that is mathematically equivalent to a Cadian squad re-rolling 1s) but does not have carapace armor, BS 3+, the ability to deep strike, or improved guns. A Peregrine'sRegiment Basilisk crew are experts in the "drive me closer, I want to hit them with my sword" tactic and their determination to get up close and shoot stuff at point blank range improves their rate of fire but they are still BS 4+. Etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ghenghis_Ken wrote:
personally, I don't agree with the RAW argument for custom regiments, however, i'll wait for a GW clarification.

This is not something you get to disagree about. The rules are perfectly clear on this, and objecting to it is no more reasonable than demanding a "clarification" from GW that lasguns do in fact have 24" range. And a tournament's house rules banning custom regiments with the "storm troopers" doctrine is no more reasonable than declaring that Ultramarines tactical squads are banned because the rules are "unclear". You're free to decline to use the option because your local tournaments have imposed a ridiculous house rule, but please don't attempt to confuse the issue by pretending that their house rule has anything to do with the rules published by GW.

It should be noted that using a custom regiment that takes the Storm Troopers doctrine does lose access to any and all of the regiment specific traits, orders, characters, relics and stratagems. So it's not all win win. You're giving up a fair bit to get a small if fun buff.

But yeah, pretty sure it's a legit thing you can do, under the custom regiment portion.

My brother just gifted me two destroyers / thunderers tank Hunter. Are they worth anything ? I have lost track of 40k and the meta 4 months ago I don't know exactly where we are now.

 godardc wrote:
My brother just gifted me two destroyers / thunderers tank Hunter. Are they worth anything ? I have lost track of 40k and the meta 4 months ago I don't know exactly where we are now.

Rules-wise they're utter trash, they didn't get the shoot twice rule that codex LRBTs have and so their firepower is a joke. In cash terms they're worth something if the models are in good condition, they've been OOP for quite a while and some people like them for painting purposes.

Yeah I'm super happy they are in a very good shape ! I'll be able to magnet the gun ! But unfortunately, I agree with you, reading the rules right now they seem... underwhelming

In the current ITC meta what do you guys think is more effective for a pure guard army? Infantry horde, with a sprinkling of soup for buffs or tank spam with a bit of supporting infantry to keep them out of combat.

How do we go about effectively killing the 3 crusader list with only guard resources? Whe also staying competitive against other top tier list? Eldar GSC etc?

You could do a lot of damage with some deep striking scions. You have the reroll wound order to help you out.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:

What are people doing to handle daemon hordes and specifically plague bearers.

I was tempted to take 3 mortar teams and 2 wyverns to thin them out but not sure if the -1 and -2 takes its toll.

A catachan infantry blob with straken and a priest can also dish out the pain. If they charge you to stop a 10-man infantry squad firing, you can use 'fix bayonets' to attack them in your next movement phase, with potentially up to 32 attacks for a single infantry squad . If the stars align you could use 'consolidate squads' to make that 10 man squad they tri-pointed and make it into 20-man. Then with straken, a priest and 'fix bayonets' the unit will dish out a theoretical 128 S4 attacks from fighting in both the shooting and fight phase. That should kill a few.

At 32 attacks per squad the answer is to bait them into a doomed screen and counter charge with multiple squads.

I'm thinking of breaking mono guard out to include skitari vanguards. 2 cheap tech priests to repair tanks and 3 vanguards squads. The -1 toughness in CC would drop plague bearers and orks down to t3.

I run vanguard a ton, both in pure and in soup with guard. They absolutely melt to a stiff breeze and are difficult to actually get where you need them when the opponent onows what you're up to. It's one of those tricks people really only fall for once. Shroudpsalm and bionics help, but they're still basically guardsmen when it comes down to it.

Now the tech priests are interesting, although 2 is probably going to be too much most games. With admech you'll get several abilities that make them better at repairs. A strat let's them repair twice, a relic let's them reroll the repair die, and a WLT let's you heal an additional wound. A really lucky enginseer could heal up to 8 damage if you were that lucky and insane enough. In my experience they're really only worth it for regiments like Valhallans who can guarantee being back up to full BS on a single repair, or regiments that have a ton of tanks and don't move much, like cadians. Usually once people know that's your plan they start to focus tanks more. That said it can be useful in making them overkill tanks sometimes.

If you plan on splashing in admech may as well bring some Onagers with Icarus array. It will ruin the Hydra for you forever , its an excellent AA platform.

I don’t have the Forgeworld codex in front of me and I want to make sure BattleScribe is correct. Can I take a vulture at 160 points kitted only with the punisher Gatling and heavy bolter?

Hi i got a question to the tempestus dropforce: do the scions have their stormtrooper doctrine if there is a valkyre in the same detachment? Because the codex says all units need to be militarum tempestus or is it possible because the codey says on the same page, aeronautica imerialis can be added in astra militarum without loosing doctrine but never profit of one

Hesselhof wrote:
Hi i got a question to the tempestus dropforce: do the scions have their stormtrooper doctrine if there is a valkyre in the same detachment? Because the codex says all units need to be militarum tempestus or is it possible because the codey says on the same page, aeronautica imerialis can be added in astra militarum without loosing doctrine but never profit of one

Yes they do, otherwise it would be impossible to make a Tempestus Drop Force Valkyrie. That means you can use all A&A list units.

Hesselhof wrote:
Hi i got a question to the tempestus dropforce: do the scions have their stormtrooper doctrine if there is a valkyre in the same detachment? Because the codex says all units need to be militarum tempestus or is it possible because the codey says on the same page, aeronautica imerialis can be added in astra militarum without loosing doctrine but never profit of one

RaW they do not. However GW Special Snowflake FAQed it to work, despite it ignoring all previous precedent and other similar rules.

Q: For the purposes of the Tempestus Drop Force Specialist Detachment, what is a Militarum Tempestus Detachment?
A: A MILITARUM TEMPESTUS Detachment is an ASTRA MILITARUM Detachment that has the Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine.

I know what you mean but the codex says also that aeronautica can be included in an ASTRA MILITARUM detatchment without losing the doctrine, and militarum tempestus are also an astra militarum

Hesselhof wrote:
I know what you mean but the codex says also that aeronautica can be included in an ASTRA MILITARUM detatchment without losing the doctrine, and militarum tempestus are also an astra militarum

The rule in Vigilus doesn't care about the doctrine, it cares about the MILITARUM TEMPESTUS keyword. It would be like saying any army with the Ultramarines doctrine is an ULTRAMARINES army. And like I said, it's been FAQed anyway so it's a moot point.

Ya but this faq part leaves me dumb as before (sorry my bad english) because of the part in the dex which says aeronautica doesnt crush the doctrine of an astra detachment

Hesselhof wrote:
Ya but this faq part leaves me dumb as before (sorry my bad english) because of the part in the dex which says aeronautica doesnt crush the doctrine of an astra detachment

They clarified after a while. They thought that the rule in book was fine, but specified later so people that read the rules and got the wrong conclusion could be told off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It works. The Advisors and Auxillia rules overule the Militarum Tempestus rule in the same fashion that it does the regular Regimental Doctrine rules. Some people just did not want to read it that way.

Guys please let's not go down this path again we've had this argument like 10 times already.

Is it possible to push Bullgryns with maul in close combat? except with minustorum priest for +1 atk

Not sure what you mean by "Push".

If you mean "Buff", you also have access to psykic powers to help them, and have a stratigym to have all the models throw their frag bombs in a single shooting phase.

Bullgryns are awesome, almost as good as the Ogryn Bodyguard.


Are people still using Smite Spam with their Guard? I recently fell in love with it, and am taking 3 Primaris Psykers and 2 Astropaths in my lists. Other than the Ogryn Bodyguard, is there any way I can double down/protect that sweet Mortal Wound damage output?

I'm putting together a list I think will be tough,it puts me down to 10cp though with all the relics, detachments, and extra WL traits so tell me what you think.
2k Points, 3 Detachments


1. Battalion Detachment - Cadian

HQ:

x2 Company Commander (Grand Strategist, Kurovs Aquila)

Troops:

x3 Infantry Squads

Elites:

x1 Squad of 8 Bullgryn

Heavy Support:

x2 Basilisks

x1 Wyvern

2. Battalion Detachment - Valhallan

HQ:

x3 Tank Commanders ( Two LRBTS, One Executioner with Plasma Sponsons)

Troops:

x2 Conscripts (20 Per Squad)

x1 Infantry Squad

Elites:

Platoon Commander ( Pietro Mk45 Bolt Pistol)

3. Vanguard Detachment - Mordian - Emperor's Blade Assault Company

HQ: Company Commander ( Field Commander, Mechanized Commander)

Elites:

x1 Minostorum Priest

x2 Veteran Squads (Triple Plasma, Sergeant with Bolter)

Dedicated Transport:

x2 Chimera



It isn't 2k exactly, I still have a small amount of points to work with so I was thinking of throwing in an Astropath for the Vanguard Detachment, that way I can shift the priest and the bullgryn in with the Valhallans so I can open myself up to the possiblity of using the Priest/Assault Detachment if need be, then use the remaining points to fill in with some extra conscripts. Hopefully will get to test it out the following weekend to get a feel for the list.