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Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




@Zontarz, this is generally a Tactics board, and the List help should be in the List section of the forum.

That said, what you have there looks very mean. It may be a little difficult keeping all the various Regiments seperate and clear for Order purposes, but you have a clear reason for using each detatchment.

I would stay away from Psykic, unless you want to go all-in (which isnt too expensive, but still requires a commitment).
   
Made in nz
Imperial Recruit in Training



Wellington, New Zealand

Hey folks,
I have two questions with regards to the two boxes of bullgryn that I just got.
1) I am planning on making at least one bone 'ead and three bullgryn. The question is what to do with the last two models.
a) I could make two more bullgryn, and buff them with one of my priests. I would then use them as a counter charge unit in my back field, or else slog them up the board.
b) I could make one more bullgryn and one more bone 'ead for two smaller squads with much the same role.
c) I could make Nork and a body guard. In this case, I could push the first four out of my valkyrie.
d) I could go half way betweenb (a) and (c) and build one more bullbryn and either Nork of a body guard.

For context, I play pretty much exclusively with a friend of mine, and we are starkly non-competitive. I generally play catachan with 3 Leman Russ, about 70 infantry, and lots of characters.

2) My friend plays dark angels. Would option (a) give me a unit that could make a good fight of it if they got the charge in against his death wing knights?
thanks

3,400 + Astra Militarum 
   
Made in gb
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot





Luton, England

Colonel Flashman wrote:
Hey folks,
I have two questions with regards to the two boxes of bullgryn that I just got.
1) I am planning on making at least one bone 'ead and three bullgryn. The question is what to do with the last two models.
a) I could make two more bullgryn, and buff them with one of my priests. I would then use them as a counter charge unit in my back field, or else slog them up the board.
b) I could make one more bullgryn and one more bone 'ead for two smaller squads with much the same role.
c) I could make Nork and a body guard. In this case, I could push the first four out of my valkyrie.
d) I could go half way betweenb (a) and (c) and build one more bullbryn and either Nork of a body guard.

For context, I play pretty much exclusively with a friend of mine, and we are starkly non-competitive. I generally play catachan with 3 Leman Russ, about 70 infantry, and lots of characters.

2) My friend plays dark angels. Would option (a) give me a unit that could make a good fight of it if they got the charge in against his death wing knights?
thanks


From a purely competitive standpoint the larger the unit of bullgryns the better as they get more millage out of any buff you give them and give you more control over the amount of board you cover.

As you said though you generally play casually with your regular opponent so I would go with at least one bodyguard to protect your characters (make him up with maul and shield plus perhaps Norks special armour plates and you can alwasy use him as a standard bullgryn if needed) and them a nork as hes good fun and a great looking model. 4 Bullgryn is a small unit and will get whittled down pretty quickly by the right weapons but can still take a fair amount of hits from light weapons and will do some damage to a terminator squad if it gets the charge off, just don't expect it to will a protracted fight.

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Made in fr
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





Segmentum Solar, Terra, France

Hello fellow Guard commanders.

I need your help to define in which direction I could evolve my Imperial Guard into.
In more than ten years of playing, I have only accumulated barely 1700 points of painted, pure Astra Militarum force.
Plus a few boxes of figurines to build, a few unpainted, and too many stalled projects... just enough to cross the 2000 points threshold.
Now I have decided to speed up the process.

Until now, I almost exclusively played 1000 points battles, due to time constraints.
But I would like to expand my W40k horizon and go beyond this barrier.

First of my problems is my very low win rate.
The second problem is I have no particular coherency, nor theme in my army.
So I would like to pick a theme (or two) and be able to say : my guard is a xxxx regiment (with yyyy support).
Currently I feel having a hodgepodge of an army, little of everything, and that dispersion shows on the tabletop results.

I field old-school Valhallan infantry, plus Kasrkin Militarum Tempestus.
Globally everything below the size of a tank is metal (and I want it to remain that way).
As of now, the limit was only tree squads of line infantry, some heavy weapons teams, plus 2 Militarum Tempestus full sized squads.
A fourth squad of Valhallans is painted, a fifth is on the schedule, plus a third squad of Militarum Tempestus.
But that will be it for my beloved metal little dudes. I will soon run out of miniatures, they have become difficult to find and too expensive.
I am sourcing alternative sergeants / some special weapons with metal miniatures from a small producer from the UK, but that is about it.
And I do not want to mix plastic / resin conversions, so I am now looking at vehicles to expand the army further.

So which vehicles to would be the best to complement this small force ?

If you need a more complete list of what I have currently, I can post that.

Playing  
   
Made in us
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





 Ravajaxe wrote:
Spoiler:
Hello fellow Guard commanders.

I need your help to define in which direction I could evolve my Imperial Guard into.
In more than ten years of playing, I have only accumulated barely 1700 points of painted, pure Astra Militarum force.
Plus a few boxes of figurines to build, a few unpainted, and too many stalled projects... just enough to cross the 2000 points threshold.
Now I have decided to speed up the process.

Until now, I almost exclusively played 1000 points battles, due to time constraints.
But I would like to expand my W40k horizon and go beyond this barrier.

First of my problems is my very low win rate.
The second problem is I have no particular coherency, nor theme in my army.
So I would like to pick a theme (or two) and be able to say : my guard is a xxxx regiment (with yyyy support).
Currently I feel having a hodgepodge of an army, little of everything, and that dispersion shows on the tabletop results.

I field old-school Valhallan infantry, plus Kasrkin Militarum Tempestus.
Globally everything below the size of a tank is metal (and I want it to remain that way).
As of now, the limit was only tree squads of line infantry, some heavy weapons teams, plus 2 Militarum Tempestus full sized squads.
A fourth squad of Valhallans is painted, a fifth is on the schedule, plus a third squad of Militarum Tempestus.
But that will be it for my beloved metal little dudes. I will soon run out of miniatures, they have become difficult to find and too expensive.
I am sourcing alternative sergeants / some special weapons with metal miniatures from a small producer from the UK, but that is about it.
And I do not want to mix plastic / resin conversions, so I am now looking at vehicles to expand the army further.

So which vehicles to would be the best to complement this small force ?

If you need a more complete list of what I have currently, I can post that.


If you want to stick with Valhallans take advantage of their resilient vehicles from the regiment trait. You can also give one of your commissars the relic pistol that turns them into a pre-FAQ commissar, you only execute one guardsman for morale.

I love me a baneblade, and a Valhallan baneblade is a tough nut to crack.

 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
If you want to stick with Valhallans take advantage of their resilient vehicles from the regiment trait. You can also give one of your commissars the relic pistol that turns them into a pre-FAQ commissar, you only execute one guardsman for morale.

I love me a baneblade, and a Valhallan baneblade is a tough nut to crack.
You can't give it to a Commissar. You have to give it to a VALHALLAN model, so you can give it to a Company Commander or Platoon Commander.

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Made in cz
Mysterious Techpriest






Fortress world of Ostrakan

First, taking ONLY 3 Infantry Squads is very limiting. If you can get at least 6 of them, do it, so you don't rely on Tempestus so much to fill the Brigade detachment. Since you are playing a Valhalla, I would consider conscript squad or two and a company commander with the relic behind them. They are hard to remove if taken in larger numbers and expandable too.

Guard is strong and the main advantage is the ability to spam tons of cheap, moderately good units.

So, Valhallan infantry brigade as a core. You can fill everything with infantry, except fast attack, where we don't have many options, sadly. I'd take the Devil Dog(?) (Melta Hellhound), as Hellhound (with track guards) does not benefit from the regimental doctrine very much.

As a support, I'd take Catachan Artillery, Valhallan Baneblade* or a Tank Platoon of whatever regiment suits you better.

* or Vostroyan for the sweet +1 BS (would be better with Shadowsword or Bane Lord) or Catachan for the magic effect of making things disappear in larger quantities. Take supreme command detachment, fill it with commissars or psykers and you can take whatever regiment you want.


Neutran Panzergrenadiers, Ostrakan Skitarii Legions, Order of the Silver Hand
My fan-lore: Europan Planetary federation. Hot topic: Help with Minotaurs chapter Killteam






 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Heroic Senior Officer





Murray, Kentucky

 Ravajaxe wrote:
Hello fellow Guard commanders.

I need your help to define in which direction I could evolve my Imperial Guard into.
In more than ten years of playing, I have only accumulated barely 1700 points of painted, pure Astra Militarum force.
Plus a few boxes of figurines to build, a few unpainted, and too many stalled projects... just enough to cross the 2000 points threshold.
Now I have decided to speed up the process.

Until now, I almost exclusively played 1000 points battles, due to time constraints.
But I would like to expand my W40k horizon and go beyond this barrier.

First of my problems is my very low win rate.
The second problem is I have no particular coherency, nor theme in my army.
So I would like to pick a theme (or two) and be able to say : my guard is a xxxx regiment (with yyyy support).
Currently I feel having a hodgepodge of an army, little of everything, and that dispersion shows on the tabletop results.

I field old-school Valhallan infantry, plus Kasrkin Militarum Tempestus.
Globally everything below the size of a tank is metal (and I want it to remain that way).
As of now, the limit was only tree squads of line infantry, some heavy weapons teams, plus 2 Militarum Tempestus full sized squads.
A fourth squad of Valhallans is painted, a fifth is on the schedule, plus a third squad of Militarum Tempestus.
But that will be it for my beloved metal little dudes. I will soon run out of miniatures, they have become difficult to find and too expensive.
I am sourcing alternative sergeants / some special weapons with metal miniatures from a small producer from the UK, but that is about it.
And I do not want to mix plastic / resin conversions, so I am now looking at vehicles to expand the army further.

So which vehicles to would be the best to complement this small force ?

If you need a more complete list of what I have currently, I can post that.

If you're sticking with Valhallans, you need to abuse your ability to stick around and Outlast the opponent. I'd heavily recommend you get up to at least 60 infantry, I understand it being difficult but trust me you'll want them. Various tips are as followed.

1.The relic pistol isnt necessary most of the time for infantry squads I'm learning. It's mostly for conscripts. Most of the time if I'm losing the squad to morale it's a final survivor who would've been shot anyways.

2.if you're going armored, which it sounds like you are, a tech priest is a good investment. Most guard regiments don't get much because their tanks degrade so fast, but with Valhallans most tanks can be brought up to full BS even with a bad roll on your enginseer.

3. Hellhounds are great for you and you don't even need track guards with how long it takes to degrade. Not only do they hit well and are fast, they won't degrade to like 2 wounds.

4. Make the kasrkin their own detachment. More cp, additional buffs, it's a win win.

5. From there build toward a core of Russe's, Hellhounds, and some artillery like basilisks. Your infantry will be key for screening and if you can't get anymore you may have to go with some sentinels and using your Hellhounds to push back deepstrike.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

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Made in fr
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





Segmentum Solar, Terra, France

First, thanks for the replies. Any help is appreciated.

I'm not limited to the valhallan doctrine, sometimes I explore the advantages offered by other doctrines.
But for figurines, yeah sure.

I do not like the conscript squad, it would eat all my regular valhallan infantrymen.
They don't fight well, rely on a nerfed commissar or a relic to hold their morale.
Snipers are not rare...

The reason I am currently limited to three infantry squads is from 5th-6th editions, when power blob was a force to consider. Three squads was the sweet spot, especially for 1000 points battles.
Plus, currently many tournaments in France impose very stringent restrictions on army composition (except the "no limit" ones), even on troops, so 3 equipped squads is all I needed until now.
But I stop bothering you with this. I acknowledge the need for more squads.

So...
Did I said equipped squads ?
Well, I like having some upgrades in my line squads. The barebones squad @ 40 points feels very bland to me.
Fortunately I have a nice selections of valhallan heavy / special weapons.
1) Do you equip your line squads ?

On a tactical point of view, my observation is that the Leman Russ (and Tank commanders) can prove nice, but they are pricey.
However, they need : to be exposed, to move on position and repeated sacrificial protection.
Not something I can reasonably afford with 4-5 squads of guardsmen.

I feel that hidden indirect fire artillery is less prone to these problems.
Moreover, the ITC / ETC ruling about floor level of ruins counting as LOS blocking has spread fast here.
So indirect fire is a nice to have.
I have a Manticore, which I find to be in a better shape in 8th than during the last two editions.
2) What about taking more Manticores ?
3) Should I favor other artillery ?


I understand the remark of Hellhounds being good, but if I can mimic their firepower with Chimeras, could it be viable ?
To explain what I'm thinking about : in order to earn Maelstrom points, conquer objectives for the end game, Chimeras transporting squads can prove useful, aren't they ?
So now, I'm thinking about fielding some of them, equipped with dual heavy flamers. This negates any minus to hit modifiers, provide solid counter-charge fire.
Both chimera chassis and heavy flamers got significant point reductions.

4) How much Chimeras ?
Only for some special weapons squads ?
What about a fully mechanised guard ?

Playing  
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Heroic Senior Officer





Murray, Kentucky

Well you need something to take hits, you can't just hide all game with artillery. If you're not running infantry then it's gonna be apcs, Hellhounds, or Russe's. Sentinels could work for screening too if you're deadset on no more infantry. You're going to need to invest in some. Yes they can't ignore LoS and need to be exposed, but if you take nothing but artillery and a few chimeras you're gonna get demolished by all but the weakest lists. If you're talking pure competitive then tank commanders make good fire support, they may not ignore line of sight but do far more damage when they fire.

Chimeras can somewhat mimic the firepower of a hellhound, but they still aren't in the same ballpark. Hellhounds has more range, better strength, and explodes more often. Chimeras just end up being a little cheaper and can carry troops. That said taking chimeras and Hellhounds together could work as a wall of T7 vehicles that autohit.

Trust me, at 2k running 90 infantry can feel low and I run around 10 tanks on Valhallans doctrine as well. Running like 40 you're gonna need all the help you can get.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






Mechanized Guard is bad, for the following reasons.

1) Chimeras are too expensive. Instead of spending 80-100 points on a vehicle, you can instead just take 2 extra squads of Guardsmen. I'd rather have 20 Guardsmen over 1 Chimera any day.

2) Chimeras are slow. Your basic Guardsmen, with an Officer there to yell at him, can move 14-24" per turn. Chimeras move at most 12".

3) Chimeras remove the main function of infantry. The main purpose of your infantry is to prevent your tanks from being assaulted. If they're sitting in a vehicle, they're not blocking anyone from assaulting anything

4) They don't have any firepower for their points cost. They're packing a multi laser and a heavy bolter... that's extremely underwhelming. A pair of plasma cannon or autocannon armored sentinels offer more firepower for similar costs. Because of reasons 2 and 3, I don't think their transport capacity is of much use, so if their transport isn't good, and their firepower isn't good, why buy them?

5) If you REALLY need to transport a valuable unit... buy a Valkyrie. It's not THAT much more expensive, but it does the transport job a hundred times better, and it's more survivable to boot with it's -1 to hit. Transporting high value troops like plasma veterans, scions, or bullgryns can be a viable strat, but Chimeras don't let you disembark after moving... so you can't just move them forward and pop troops out to assault or shoot. Valkyries can do this.. they're just better.
   
Made in cz
Mysterious Techpriest






Fortress world of Ostrakan

For Valkyrie, I'd consider the Tempestus Drop Force formation from Vigilus.

1) Do you equip your line squads ?

I play Vostroya, so I give them Plasma Guns, since they benefit from the +6" the most. And are kind of meta since 8th dropped. And I play mostly against Marines anyway. No heavy weapons, though.
For Valhalla, you can take whatever suits you the most, you are not limited or benefited here in any way. Although, the basic grenade launcher would serve you well, if you want to stay cheap.

2) What about taking more Manticores ?
3) Should I favor other artillery ?


The obvious drawback of the Manticore is only 4 missiles. If it fires all of its missiles, it won and you can use it in any way necessary. You won't miss it now.
I used to use it as a distraction carnifex to draw fire, while the rest of my army advanced.
I think taking one or two is fine as it hit hard, but note it can have from 2 to 12 shots and you still hit on 4+, so reliability is a big question mark here.
Basilisk doesn't hit that hard but is more reliable. I'd take 1 Manticore and 2 Basilisks with Catachan doctrine and if you wanted more, take more Basilisks, as they are more point-efficient. Also, consider taking the Master of Ordnance if you go artillery-heavy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/05 07:08:26



Neutran Panzergrenadiers, Ostrakan Skitarii Legions, Order of the Silver Hand
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Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




After last FAQ You cannot move after grav-chuting grom valkyrie anymore :(
   
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






Iowa

Gnollu wrote:
After last FAQ You cannot move after grav-chuting grom valkyrie anymore :(

That make the Taurox Primes more valuable for carrying melta and hot-shot lasguns.

If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed. 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Apple Peel wrote:
That make the Taurox Primes more valuable for carrying melta and hot-shot lasguns.


Err, how? It's a unit with less threat range and weaker defense, why would you want to use them?

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
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Iowa

 Peregrine wrote:
 Apple Peel wrote:
That make the Taurox Primes more valuable for carrying melta and hot-shot lasguns.


Err, how? It's a unit with less threat range and weaker defense, why would you want to use them?

In this case, I speak of their transport capabilities. You will have to dodge and weave to different cover spots while making your way up the board (one of the original strategies suggested in their White Dearf premier, all that time ago). Do this for a few turns. Hopefully (I am talking about a pure Scions list), you will have thinned out or destroyed the enemy’s screen by now. Your reservist plasma droppers are head-hunting, and you need something to take our exposed tanks, so you have your Primes drive up with melta squads.

If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed. 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Apple Peel wrote:
In this case, I speak of their transport capabilities. You will have to dodge and weave to different cover spots while making your way up the board (one of the original strategies suggested in their White Dearf premier, all that time ago). Do this for a few turns. Hopefully (I am talking about a pure Scions list), you will have thinned out or destroyed the enemy’s screen by now. Your reservist plasma droppers are head-hunting, and you need something to take our exposed tanks, so you have your Primes drive up with melta squads.


But why would you do this with a bad unit instead of a Valkyrie? The Valkyrie is better at getting its cargo to a target, period. It's faster, it can deploy units after moving, and it has better durability. And why would you want to wait until late in the game to deploy your anti-tank units? If you don't have them at their target by turn 2 it's too late and you've probably lost the game. As far as I can see the only benefit to the Taurox, aside from being so ugly that your opponent might forfeit the game to avoid having to look at it, is that it fits the fluff for your special snowflake $cions™.

And I'm really not understanding how you deploy melta effectively from a conventional transport. You can't disembark after moving, so your target knows exactly where you have to disembark from and is unlikely to end their turn within your ~12" threat range.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






Iowa

 Peregrine wrote:
 Apple Peel wrote:
In this case, I speak of their transport capabilities. You will have to dodge and weave to different cover spots while making your way up the board (one of the original strategies suggested in their White Dearf premier, all that time ago). Do this for a few turns. Hopefully (I am talking about a pure Scions list), you will have thinned out or destroyed the enemy’s screen by now. Your reservist plasma droppers are head-hunting, and you need something to take our exposed tanks, so you have your Primes drive up with melta squads.


But why would you do this with a bad unit instead of a Valkyrie? The Valkyrie is better at getting its cargo to a target, period. It's faster, it can deploy units after moving, and it has better durability. And why would you want to wait until late in the game to deploy your anti-tank units? If you don't have them at their target by turn 2 it's too late and you've probably lost the game. As far as I can see the only benefit to the Taurox, aside from being so ugly that your opponent might forfeit the game to avoid having to look at it, is that it fits the fluff for your special snowflake $cions™.

And I'm really not understanding how you deploy melta effectively from a conventional transport. You can't disembark after moving, so your target knows exactly where you have to disembark from and is unlikely to end their turn within your ~12" threat range.

This is to work around how we can’t move after disembarking from Valkyries.
By this time in game, one should have already delivered his or her Plasma teams with the Valks on turn one. The Taurox Prime is also cheaper in each sense of the word. Valks are targets for their hyper-valuable payload.

Assume my three plasma command squads and their Valk survived the alpha strike. They have to get in the Valk next turn and get to position to Drop next turn, while the Primes are driving forward. Depending on what’s left of enemy armor, I could expect the Valk to die and strand my plasma teams. But, since the enemy is cripple from the alpha strike, the Primes have rushed up to the armor (maybe charging in to hold off fire for the turn. Worst comes to worst, Prime are destroyed, but that will leave the meltas in doctrine and megamelta range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The major anti-tank attack has already happened. This is cleanup of heavy targets, just like deepstriking plasma teams will clean up heavy infantry and light vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Worst case scenario, my command squads and or Valks are down, but I still have the APCs going up. (Actual worst case scenario is I get tabled in enemy turn one, but I’m not being silly here.

edited by ingtaer - please stick to rule 1.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/06/06 04:47:30


If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed. 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Apple Peel wrote:
This is to work around how we can’t move after disembarking from Valkyries


How does replacing the Valkyrie with a slower transport help with this problem? Instead of being able to disembark but not move any farther after the Valkyrie moves you can't disembark at all after the Taurox moves. You've "fixed" the problem with a strictly worse alternative.

As for the rest, you're making a lot of assumptions here. Assuming that your glass cannons will survive a suicide drop, assuming that your opponent shoots the target you want them to shoot, etc. And none of those assumptions seem to say anything to answer the question of why you think it's a good idea to have your melta units arriving later than they'd arrive with a Valkyrie to transport them, and with a much higher chance of being destroyed before they can shoot.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/06 04:26:10


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






Iowa

 Peregrine wrote:
 Apple Peel wrote:
This is to work around how we can’t move after disembarking from Valkyries


How does replacing the Valkyrie with a slower transport help with this problem? Instead of being able to disembark but not move any farther after the Valkyrie moves you can't disembark at all after the Taurox moves. You've "fixed" the problem with a strictly worse alternative.

As for the rest, you're making a lot of assumptions here. Assuming that your glass cannons will survive a suicide drop, assuming that your opponent shoots the target you want them to shoot, etc. And none of those assumptions seem to say anything to answer the question of why you think it's a good idea to have your melta units arriving later than they'd arrive with a Valkyrie to transport them, and with a much higher chance of being destroyed before they can shoot.

If they destroy the both Primes before they get there, they probably don’t have the firepower to take out the reinforcing Valkyries coming out.
Besides, i also said they were cheaper. In addition, they have better ballistic skill than the supersonic Valks, so I can still be shooting the enemy on my way in more effectively.
I will assume a lot. You make a “perfect” plan/guide to use, then you change accordingly in an actual match. Assuming everything fails every time just means losing the game, and that’s counterintuitive to the desired end result, so one makes a plan to try and follow through with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I’ve already explained why the meltas get there later, as well. You must be blinded by your Militarum Tempestus hate again to read. They are the armor cleanup crew.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/06 04:35:21


 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Apple Peel wrote:
If they destroy the both Primes before they get there, they probably don’t have the firepower to take out the reinforcing Valkyries coming out.


I think you severely underestimate how much anti-tank firepower is in 8th edition and how little durability the Taurox has.

Besides, i also said they were cheaper.


Only because they're much worse at doing their job. They're slower, they can't deploy units at all after moving, and they're much easier to kill. Deploying by deep strike is even cheaper than a Taurox and about as effective.

In addition, they have better ballistic skill than the supersonic Valks, so I can still be shooting the enemy on my way in more effectively.


Unless the Valkyries go into hover mode, trading the -1 to hit for the same BS 3+ as your Taurox. Not that this really matters, as the goal of a transport is to deliver its cargo to a target. Getting better guns in exchange for being a much worse transport is not a good trade. If it's guns you want take a proper tank instead. Or, if you stubbornly refuse to play anything but Militarius™ Trademarkus™ then you could always take a Vulture gunship or three.

I will assume a lot. You make a “perfect” plan/guide to use, then you change accordingly in an actual match. Assuming everything fails every time just means losing the game, and that’s counterintuitive to the desired end result, so one makes a plan to try and follow through with.


Alternatively you make a plan that assumes you'll get average dice and your opponent will make all of the right decisions. You plan to beat them even when they do everything right, you don't assume they'll pick the targets you need them to attack.

I’ve already explained why the meltas get there later, as well.


And none of your explanation had anything resembling a compelling reason why you'd want them there later instead of immediately in a game that heavily rewards alpha strikes.

They are the armor cleanup crew.


Which is a poor role when you could instead use them as part of your alpha strike and leave no armor intact to clean up on later turns. Or you could just understand the math better, give them plasma instead of melta, and have a more effective anti-armor unit that is also more effective against everything else.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/06 05:09:33


 
   
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I think you severely underestimate how much anti-tank firepower is in 8th edition and how little durability the Taurox has.

Metas changed a bit since the Castellan took a hit.

Only because they're much worse at doing their job. They're slower, they can't deploy units at all after moving, and they're much easier to kill. Deploying by deep strike is even cheaper than a Taurox and about as effective.

Yeah, I’m gonna deepstrike melta and not get my doctrine’s nor the meltas’ half range benefit. Sweet spot for Valks is moving less than twenty inches so the cargo doesn’t die (lest you are willing to spend a CP, which with a Militarum Tempestus list is a bit more valuable). The Valks can’t emabrk and disembark units in the same turn, so that’s a turn cooldown for my plasma team effectiveness. If I need to hoof it, I could advance the Primes. 1/3 chance to do equal speed or better, 2/3 to do worse, but I’m also paying for less.

Unless the Valkyries go into hover mode, trading the -1 to hit for the same BS 3+ as your Taurox. Not that this really matters, as the goal of a transport is to deliver its cargo to a target. Getting better guns in exchange for being a much worse transport is not a good trade. If it's guns you want take a proper tank instead. Or, if you stubbornly refuse to play anything but Militarius™ Trademarkus™ then you could always take a Vulture gunship or three.

I don’t do forge world. Getting out of supersonic makes it less durable, and a juicer target. Taurox Primes don’t have to deal with the Aircraft rule, either. I’d rather send a Taurox Prime in, (maybe use Crush Them, maybe not) tie up the enemy and force a fall back, get the Prime shot to the warp, causing it to explode (or it doesn’t, even better) and having the melta Scions in range.

And none of your explanation had anything resembling a compelling reason why you'd want them there later instead of immediately in a game that heavily rewards alpha strikes.

See, you put everything into your alpha strike. You cripple the enemy well, but he still cuts down your T3 Sv4 models like butter. You have to hope to outlast the enemy till the end. When you separate your strike into two parts, alpha and beta, you alpha the enemy, the enemy responds, you beta the enemy afterwards. That beta strike, the deepstriking plasma teams, the deepstriking hot-shot squads for reinforcing areas or taking objectives, the main part of your leadership tucked away, and your auxiliary attack vehicles have to hold out the rest of the game.
   
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Colonel Flashman wrote:
Hey folks,
I have two questions with regards to the two boxes of bullgryn that I just got.
1) I am planning on making at least one bone 'ead and three bullgryn. The question is what to do with the last two models.
a) I could make two more bullgryn, and buff them with one of my priests. I would then use them as a counter charge unit in my back field, or else slog them up the board.
b) I could make one more bullgryn and one more bone 'ead for two smaller squads with much the same role.
c) I could make Nork and a body guard. In this case, I could push the first four out of my valkyrie.
d) I could go half way betweenb (a) and (c) and build one more bullbryn and either Nork of a body guard.

For context, I play pretty much exclusively with a friend of mine, and we are starkly non-competitive. I generally play catachan with 3 Leman Russ, about 70 infantry, and lots of characters.

2) My friend plays dark angels. Would option (a) give me a unit that could make a good fight of it if they got the charge in against his death wing knights?
thanks


Building for Nork and a bodyguard seems like a lot of bodyguarding, especially as stock Bullgryns love numbers. For what it's worth, I found the kit to be very magnet-friendly; I built mine to take either shield. I'd have to check my Codex, but except for a few items of wargear, a Bullgryn's a Bullgryn, so maybe leave them mostly neutral. I used all three masks on one group and use the goggles to mark the Bone'ead.

I've got a long-running thought to by a $25 box of Nobz and see if I can use leftover Bullgryn bits to build some Ogryns on the cheap.

Edit: Oh, and that sounds like a fun matchup; Bullgryns at their best can hit like Termies.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/06/06 19:26:27


   
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 Apple Peel wrote:

I think you severely underestimate how much anti-tank firepower is in 8th edition and how little durability the Taurox has.

Metas changed a bit since the Castellan took a hit.


Not in regards to anti-tank.

Knights are still extremely popular. Triple Knight lists with either 1 or 2 battalions of support is very common. Castellans are still quite common. Literally any army worth it's salt will be able to easily take down 2-3 (or more) tauroxes turn 1. The taurox is only T6... S6/7 weapons are quite common, the T7 nature of a Valkyrie, along with the natural -1 to hit and more wounds, makes it about twice as durable as a taurox. That's not an exaggeration, an Avenger Gattling cannon can be expected to do 2x the damage to a Taurox than a Valkyrie, not even counting the extra wounds it gets.

Generally you start with the infantry in the Valk anyway, so it's not like you have to get in, then get out, like you also stated. There's no 1 turn cooldown.

Tauroxes are actually not a bad choice for fire support... 70 points for 4 BS3 autocannon shots on a T6/3+ platform isn't a terrible deal. They're just not good transports. If you want to take them, fine, but use them for fire support and don't actually put guys in them.
   
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 Apple Peel wrote:
Yeah, I’m gonna deepstrike melta and not get my doctrine’s nor the meltas’ half range benefit.


Why not? Two squads deep striking, firing long-range shots, and then moving into position for close-range shots on the following turn will do more than a single squad in a Taurox.

Sweet spot for Valks is moving less than twenty inches so the cargo doesn’t die (lest you are willing to spend a CP, which with a Militarum Tempestus list is a bit more valuable). The Valks can’t emabrk and disembark units in the same turn, so that’s a turn cooldown for my plasma team effectiveness. If I need to hoof it, I could advance the Primes. 1/3 chance to do equal speed or better, 2/3 to do worse, but I’m also paying for less.


I have no idea what your point here is. The Valkyrie can't embark and disembark a unit in the same turn but the Taurox can't either. How exactly is that a win for the Taurox? And how exactly is the Taurox getting the same speed as a Valkyrie? The only reason to move 20" is to disembark troops, but if you're advancing the Taurox you're moving the cargo forward without disembarking. And you can't compare a Valkyrie moving slow to disembark its troops to a Taurox moving as fast as possible without disembarking or shooting. A Valkyrie that doesn't need to disembark its troops risk-free can move up to 45" and still shoot, considerably faster than the move + advance of a Taurox, and can move up to 65" if you advance.

I don’t do forge world.


Then why are you here? This is the thread for IG tactics in normal games, not the best tactics within your weird self-imposed rules about which units you're willing to use.

Getting out of supersonic makes it less durable, and a juicer target.


Even without the -1 to hit the Valkryie is still T7 W14 compared to the Taurox's T6 W10. In no way is the Valkyrie an easier target.

Taurox Primes don’t have to deal with the Aircraft rule, either. I’d rather send a Taurox Prime in, (maybe use Crush Them, maybe not) tie up the enemy and force a fall back, get the Prime shot to the warp, causing it to explode (or it doesn’t, even better) and having the melta Scions in range.


I will grant this, depending on how you interpret the rule*. You finally found a thing the Taurox does better. However, being able to lock units in combat is a pretty weak consolation prize for being so much worse at the primary job of a transport.

*Getting the AIRCRAFT keyword requires having a minimum move value, and going into hover mode replaces the Valkyrie's minimum move value with a normal 20" move value. So is it the case that the AIRCRAFT keyword is permanently applied when a datasheet is written and the conditions in the FAQ just tell you which datasheets to errata, or is the AIRCRAFT keyword a thing that is continuously updated during the game and potentially gained or lost if a unit gains or loses the FLY keyword or a minimum movement value? If it's the second case then a Valkyrie could force a unit to fall back by going into hover mode and removing the AIRCRAFT keyword.

When you separate your strike into two parts, alpha and beta, you alpha the enemy, the enemy responds, you beta the enemy afterwards.


Bolded the key point. If you deliver a better alpha strike the enemy has less to respond with and you take fewer casualties. There's a reason why everyone dropped their deep striking units on turn 1 until GW nerfed it.
   
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Why not? Two squads deep striking, firing long-range shots, and then moving into position for close-range shots on the following turn will do more than a single squad in a Taurox.

Don’t forget the Taurox Primes’ armaments. Kill a screen with Gatling and hot-shot volley, or one could do battle cannon (or missile launcher, still a bit expensive, though) and autocannons to put dents in some amor. Once your squad is out, you have the squad and the Taurox guns.
Sweet spot for Valks is moving less than twenty inches so the cargo doesn’t die (lest you are willing to spend a CP, which with a Militarum Tempestus list is a bit more valuable). The Valks can’t emabrk and disembark units in the same turn, so that’s a turn cooldown for my plasma team effectiveness. If I need to hoof it, I could advance the Primes. 1/3 chance to do equal speed or better, 2/3 to do worse, but I’m also paying for less.


Then why are you here? This is the thread for IG tactics in normal games, not the best tactics within your weird self-imposed rules about which units you're willing to use.

It’s not a requirement to use forge world, and I’d like to consult and learn about different tactics concerning non-forge world units. Forge work is still a pretty big crap fest all the way around, so I don’t want to support it with money.
Getting out of supersonic makes it less durable, and a juicer target.


I will grant this, depending on how you interpret the rule*. You finally found a thing the Taurox does better. However, being able to lock units in combat is a pretty weak consolation prize for being so much worse at the primary job of a transport.

*Getting the AIRCRAFT keyword requires having a minimum move value, and going into hover mode replaces the Valkyrie's minimum move value with a normal 20" move value. So is it the case that the AIRCRAFT keyword is permanently applied when a datasheet is written and the conditions in the FAQ just tell you which datasheets to errata, or is the AIRCRAFT keyword a thing that is continuously updated during the game and potentially gained or lost if a unit gains or loses the FLY keyword or a minimum movement value? If it's the second case then a Valkyrie could force a unit to fall back by going into hover mode and removing the AIRCRAFT keyword.

Page three of the April update. Even when using the hover jet ability, flying vehicles still are counted as air craft.

Bolded the key point. If you deliver a better alpha strike the enemy has less to respond with and you take fewer casualties. There's a reason why everyone dropped their deep striking units on turn 1 until GW nerfed it.

Once the opponent is able (let’s say I got first action here) the enemy decides to drop his vanguard vets on what ever is left of my alpha strike forces/other table forces. The beta strike next turn is a counterplay against this and other units on the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Horst wrote:
 Apple Peel wrote:

I think you severely underestimate how much anti-tank firepower is in 8th edition and how little durability the Taurox has.

Metas changed a bit since the Castellan took a hit.


Not in regards to anti-tank.

Knights are still extremely popular. Triple Knight lists with either 1 or 2 battalions of support is very common. Castellans are still quite common. Literally any army worth it's salt will be able to easily take down 2-3 (or more) tauroxes turn 1. The taurox is only T6... S6/7 weapons are quite common, the T7 nature of a Valkyrie, along with the natural -1 to hit and more wounds, makes it about twice as durable as a taurox. That's not an exaggeration, an Avenger Gattling cannon can be expected to do 2x the damage to a Taurox than a Valkyrie, not even counting the extra wounds it gets.

Generally you start with the infantry in the Valk anyway, so it's not like you have to get in, then get out, like you also stated. There's no 1 turn cooldown.

Tauroxes are actually not a bad choice for fire support... 70 points for 4 BS3 autocannon shots on a T6/3+ platform isn't a terrible deal. They're just not good transports. If you want to take them, fine, but use them for fire support and don't actually put guys in them.

The BS3 really makes up for it. Most of the weapons are heavy, so one could still be firing and hitting on fours while moving up with troops. I’d say it’s not that bad. Plus, once the troops are out, Taurox Primes do pretty much become gun platforms.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/06 22:29:33


 
   
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I will agree with Peregrine here. The Valkyrie got worse but is still a far super transport if you need one.

Valkyrie allows turn 1 hit, Deepstrike is a turn 2 hit, normal transports are likely a turn 3 hit unless enemy comes towards you.

First off if you want plasma and even melta, just use scions to deliver it. If you want something dead you will want it dead on turn 1 or 2. Melta reroll is cool and all but if its only activating on turn 3 or 4 its too late.

If you want to use transports, a Valkyrie with T7 14 wounds and -1 to hit is going to be the most durable platform.

The arguments for transports is that they can be hidden in cover and scoot between terrain. In a 6 turn game that is not going to be efficient. You will want your transports charging at full speed into the heart of the enemy and likely all transport options will be in range of enemy fire power.

   
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I can get no Forgeworld, that makes sense. With how much the models cost these days and the crapshoot in casting quality I don't blame someone for not wanting to use those models. If I hadn't been handed 10 planes for $250 I wouldn't have ever run a Vulture myself. I cant imagine dropping like a $100 just for one.

On the whole Valkyrie/taurox/deepstrike debate I still the Valkyrie is the best option for anything that needs to drop turn 1 and deepstriking for anything after. The tauroxes are great don't get me wrong, but they're not a good transport. Anything they can do a valkyrie is far superior to aside from shooting, and really that's not a transport's job anyways. If you're running Stormtroopers though, they don't hurt and you may get some utility out of the transport ability simply as the game goes on and Valkyries start getting destroyed. But even there, if you need to get a guy to an objective officers with move move move is still going to be the fastest option. The tauroxes max move and shoot speed is a minimum move move move, it's just that good of an order. Basically just treat the tauroxes as light tanks and let the Valkyries focus on transport.

Actually using a combo of the 3 would work pretty well I'd imagine, essentially the tauroxes can serve as transports for the guys dropping in turn 2 or 3 if they need to redeploy. Just don't use them as transports turn 1 when you have Valkyries who do the job better. Essentially start with tauroxes empty, move up shooting, and if you find you need to move guys who don't have a ride it can do so in a pinch.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/08 17:28:01


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 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I can get no Forgeworld, that makes sense. With how much the models cost these days and the crapshoot in casting quality I don't blame someone for not wanting to use those models. If I hadn't been handed 10 planes for $250 I wouldn't have ever run a Vulture myself. I cant imagine dropping like a $100 just for one.

On the whole Valkyrie/taurox/deepstrike debate I still the Valkyrie is the best option for anything that needs to drop turn 1 and deepstriking for anything after. The tauroxes are great don't get me wrong, but they're not a good transport. Anything they can do a valkyrie is far superior to aside from shooting, and really that's not a transport's job anyways. If you're running Stormtroopers though, they don't hurt and you may get some utility out of the transport ability simply as the game goes on and Valkyries start getting destroyed. But even there, if you need to get a guy to an objective officers with move move move is still going to be the fastest option. The tauroxes max move and shoot speed is a minimum move move move, it's just that good of an order. Basically just treat the tauroxes as light tanks and let the Valkyries focus on transport.

Actually using a combo of the 3 would work pretty well I'd imagine, essentially the tauroxes can serve as transports for the guys dropping in turn 2 or 3 if they need to redeploy. Just don't use them as transports turn 1 when you have Valkyries who do the job better. Essentially start with tauroxes empty, move up shooting, and if you find you need to move guys who don't have a ride it can do so in a pinch.

Taurox Primes are a good all-rounder, I’d say. Don’t forget, also, that Taurox Primes benefit from the Stormtroopers doctrine as well. Can anyone say exploding sixes on a Gatling Cannon and Hot-Shot Volley Guns?

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 Apple Peel wrote:
Don’t forget, also, that Taurox Primes benefit from the Stormtroopers doctrine as well.


Only if they don't move, which kind of hinders their use as transports.

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