VW and Audi caught installing software to circumvent EPA testing.

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**ProtoClone**

For the last six years VW and Audi have installed a software in their diesel cars to regulate emissions when it detects EPA testing.

http://bestride.com/blog/volkswagen-and-audi-ordered-to-recall-500k-diesel-cars-used-software-to-circumvent-epa-rules/24639/

Spoiler:

The New York Times is reporting that Volkswagen has been ordered to recall nearly half a million diesel cars, because it used software designed specifically to circumvent EPA emissions regulations.

According to the EPA’s notice of violation, Volkswagen installed a software “defeat device” in diesel-powered four-cylinder Volkswagen and Audi vehicles between 2009 and 2015.

“The device is programmed to detect when the car is undergoing official emissions testing, and to only turn on full emissions control systems during that testing. Those controls are turned off during normal driving situations, when the vehicles pollute far more heavily than reported by the manufacturer,” the New York Times reported.

2015 VW Golf SportWagen TDI S

““Using a defeat device in cars to evade clean air standards is illegal and a threat to public health,” said Cynthia Giles, the E.P.A.’s assistant administrator for the Office of Enforcement and Compliance. “Working closely with the California Air Resources Board, E.P.A. is committed to making sure that all automakers play by the same rules. E.P.A. will continue to investigate these very serious violations.”

It’s a significant blow for Volkswagen and Audi, because both companies wagered heavily on diesel technology as a means of increasing its average fuel economy. It placed that bet after the start of the National Clean Diesel Campaign. In June 1 of 2006, major refiners launched new initiatives to produce ultra-low sulfur diesel fuel with sulfur levels at or below 15 parts per million.

These cleaner fuels enabled the use of after treatment technologies, such as particulate traps that were supposed to be capabled of reducing emissions by 90 percent or more.

The recall covers the following makes, models and years:

2009 to 2015 Volkswagen Jetta TDI

2009 to 2015 Volkswagen Beetle TDI

2009 to 2015 Audi A3 TDI

2009 to 2015 Volkswagen Golf TDI

2009 to 2015 Volkswagen Passat TDI

It’s uncommon, but not unheard of, for manufacturers to get caught cheating the rules that are intended to get the United States fleet of cars to 54.5 miles per gallon by 2025. In 2014, the EPA issued its largest fine ever — $300 million — to Hyundai and Kia, which significantly over-reported its fuel economy ratings.

Edit title: Don't you hate it when you think "don't spell that word" as you are typing and then you type the word you are telling yourself not to spell?

**Ouze**

Hooooly hell. Luckily, I'm sure no one at all will go to jail over this, because systemic fraud isn't a real crime, like selling a $5 bag of crack or selling a loosie cigarette is.

ProtoClone wrote:
Edit title: Don't you hate it when you think "don't spell that word" as you are typing and then you type the word you are telling yourself not to spell?

Man, edit is my spellcheck. I tend to post, re-read, and then fix typos. Yes, that's the worst possible way to do it. No, I can't stop doing it.

**Jimsolo**

This is some World of Darkness s--t. Holy balls.

**OIIIIIIO**

They need to fine them to all hell and back. Or better yet force them to buy back the cars at full retail value plus interest ... sadly that would never happen though.

**LordofHats**

I'm confused. The cars have the emission control systems installed, but software only turns them on when the car is being tested? Da fawk?

Someone who knows more about cars will need to explain how that makes sense. If the emission systems are installed anyway, why not just leave them on?

**Inquisitor Lord Bane**

Diesel fuel is up to 33% more fuel efficient than unleaded fuel, and can allow for more torque in the engine, making the car accelerate faster. But they are dirtier, and controlling the emissions kills both the gas mileage and torque. So if you have the controls on all the time, it will kill the benefits of owning a diesel car, and its more expensive than unleaded.

Thats how it was explained to me at least...

**cincydooley**

Wonder how much the EPA is going to fine themselves for the Animas River spill they're responsible for.

Bunch of fething hypocrites.

**ProtoClone**

cincydooley wrote:
Wonder how much the EPA is going to fine themselves for the Animas River spill they're responsible for.

Bunch of fething hypocrites.

They'll fine VW and Audi enough to cover that, of course.

**Co'tor Shas**

cincydooley wrote:
Wonder how much the EPA is going to fine themselves for the Animas River spill they're responsible for.

Bunch of fething hypocrites.

...You do realize how ridiculous that sounds right?

First you are tying to make deliberately circumventing rules equal to accidental spillage, they are both bad, but intent is important here.

Second, you seem not to understand what happens when government agencies break the law. They don't get fined, that notion is beyond ridiculous. Anybody with the least bit of sense could see how utterly stupid that is (and I'm sure you can, from what I've seen from you, you are not stupid). What happens is that the people in charge often lose their jobs. They get sepeopned and looked at and improved.

Third, How is them enforcing rules hypocritical? It's not like they deliberately spilled it. They didn't even create the mess in the first place, it was a company breaking the law to increase profits.

**BlaxicanX**

Co'tor, you seem to be under the impression that big-government regulating good, honest corporations who are just trying to make a living through the sweat on their brow is actually a good thing.

**Ouze**

cincydooley wrote:
Wonder how much the EPA is going to fine themselves for the Animas River spill they're responsible for.

Bunch of fething hypocrites.

#whataboutism really is the best answer to every problem.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

I would not be at all surprised if some other manufacturers are having worried meetings about the 'new technology' the EPA has brought in to detect this in the VW/Audis after they were tipped off

as I strongly suspect other auto makers will have been doing something similar

**Silent Puffin?**

OIIIIIIO wrote:
They need to fine them to all hell and back.

Fining doesn't seem to do anything, custodial sentences for those responsible on the other hand....

**AduroT**

Did they honestly think no one would find out about this?

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

I suspect it started off as software to improve the vehicles performance/mileage rather than just fool the emissions tests,

but clearly they weren't upset that it did that as well

**Chongara**

AduroT wrote:
Did they honestly think no one would find out about this?

Probably not with certainty. More likely they made an estimation how likely and when they would get caught, then weighted that with the benefits from the cheating vs the penalty for being caught.

Fining doesn't seem to do anything, custodial sentences for those responsible on the other hand....

Would be more effective but still relatively ineffective unless the sentences were brutally long. When they get out they'll still have their money, the bonuses and gains that motivated the crime are still theirs. The "punishment should fit the crime" and this was done for profit, so make the crime unprofitable for those individuals. They aren't out stabbing people, or otherwise doing something physical that makes us unsafe so we get nothing by locking them up.

Instead the punishment should be along the lines seizure of their all personal assets, and a lifetime garnishment on all income to cap theirs at 3x the poverty rate. People are willing to sit in jail for a few years for greed, they're not willing to lose all their money for greed since it defeats the purpose in the first place.

**BlaxicanX**

Hilariously, I think people would consider that more cruel and unusual then something like life in prison.

**Silent Puffin?**

Chongara wrote:

Would be more effective but still relatively ineffective unless the sentences were brutally long.

In my view custodial sentences should be weighted by the amount stolen (by whatever means) and the harm inflicted. If millions are defrauded or embezzled then the perpetrator should be in prison for decades.

**Co'tor Shas**

BlaxicanX wrote:
Co'tor, you seem to be under the impression that big-government regulating good, honest corporations who are just trying to make a living through the sweat on their brow is actually a good thing.

You know, it's really hard tell whether that's a joke or not.

**Steelmage99**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:
Co'tor, you seem to be under the impression that big-government regulating good, honest corporations who are just trying to make a living through the sweat on their brow is actually a good thing.

You know, it's really hard tell whether that's a joke or not.

Poe's Law in full effect.

**Co'tor Shas**

Yep.

**KingCracker**

I dunno, I find this to be really friggin funny personally.

**Ouze**

Volkswagen to recall 500,000 pollution-hiding cars in US

German carmaker Volkswagen has been ordered by US regulators to recall half a million cars because of a device that disguises pollution levels.

The "defeat device" allows cars to pass lab testing even though they actually emit 40 times the emissions standard.

The US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has been taking a more aggressive stance on car pollution and violations of the country's Clean Air Act.
The recall could cost the carmaker up to $18bn (£11.5bn).

It affects 2009-2014 Jettas, Beetles, Audi A3s and Golfs and 2014-2015 Passats.

"Using a defeat device in cars to evade clean air standards is illegal and a threat to public health," said Cynthia Giles, assistant administrator for the Office of Enforcement and Compliance Assurance.

The illegal system allowed cars to detect when they were undergoing smog emission test and lowered the rate of pollution. Those emission controls were then turned off during ordinary use.

The state of California which assisted in the investigation has also issued a notice of violation to Volkswagen.

In 2014 the EPA fined Korean automakers Hyundai Motor and Kia Motors $300m for misrepresenting the fuel economy in 1.2 million of their cars. That settlement is the highest to date.

40 times the allowed amount? Kinda crazy.

**ProtoClone**

Ouze wrote:
Volkswagen to recall 500,000 pollution-hiding cars in US

German carmaker Volkswagen has been ordered by US regulators to recall half a million cars because of a device that disguises pollution levels.

The "defeat device" allows cars to pass lab testing even though they actually emit 40 times the emissions standard.

The US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has been taking a more aggressive stance on car pollution and violations of the country's Clean Air Act.
The recall could cost the carmaker up to $18bn (£11.5bn).

It affects 2009-2014 Jettas, Beetles, Audi A3s and Golfs and 2014-2015 Passats.

"Using a defeat device in cars to evade clean air standards is illegal and a threat to public health," said Cynthia Giles, assistant administrator for the Office of Enforcement and Compliance Assurance.

The illegal system allowed cars to detect when they were undergoing smog emission test and lowered the rate of pollution. Those emission controls were then turned off during ordinary use.

The state of California which assisted in the investigation has also issued a notice of violation to Volkswagen.

In 2014 the EPA fined Korean automakers Hyundai Motor and Kia Motors $300m for misrepresenting the fuel economy in 1.2 million of their cars. That settlement is the highest to date.

40 times the allowed amount? Kinda crazy.

That is insane!

Kia and Hyundai had to pay out to the tune of $300 million and their offense wasn't nearly as environmentally impacting as VW/Audi! Kia/Hyundai just fudge some numbers on paper while VW/Audi actually spent time developing a program to cheat the system.

**lord_blackfang**

Ain't nobody punishing the German golden geese, I'll tell you that much.

**sebster**

While the manufacturer's behaviour has been incredibly gakky, I'm probably more disappointed that sure enough someone turned up here on dakka to defend them.

**Ouze**

I don't think anyone defended them, per se. All someone did was introduce the reasonable idea that as long as a government agency once did something wrong (by accident), they should never again be able to enforce anything, ever again. Honestly, if you see a problem with that concept, it's on you.

The best part of the OT is seeing people who I know are reasonably smart say incredibly stupid things for partisan purposes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
wait, no, that's the worst part

**sebster**

Ouze wrote:
The best part of the OT is seeing people who I know are reasonably smart say incredibly stupid things for partisan purposes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
wait, no, that's the worst part

There's a financial commentator, Morgan Housel, that I read and sometimes share on dakka. Here's a quote from his latest article that sums up so much of dakka perfectly;
"Watching how people react to sports and politics is a good example of how dumb we can be when the desire to win is stronger than the ability to change your mind."

**Frazzled**

Eliminate their corporate charters in the US.

**Sigvatr**

Had to laugh at this. Whoever decided to do this is an idiot. It was doomed to appear some day and it will cost /way/ more than what they gained by selling the cars. Shares dropped to a record low after it was made public that the engines were purposefully manipulated. Good for everyone with shares in their rival companies. Not that I'd know someone who already made a profit out of this. Naaaah. Hahaha.