Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So with different rule sets coming out that people are playing by I see a common theme on the warscroll count ones and that is limiting wizards to two warscrolls per army, cool I get that, dont want to many summoners or denial chances ect ect.....except pink horrors are wizards.....so in those formats that tosses tzeentch themed armies out the window

Well how have people been dealing with this in their local gaming group? Yeah I know i can adjust the rules for mine but the reason it comes up is Frontline gamings Fall/Winter AoS league is limiting it to 2x wizards, I brought it up on the article but to no avail on getting an answer

Can my fellow tzeentch followers scheme to get them to do something about this so I can have my LoC lead my Pink horrors and heralds to victory?

Are Tzeentch spells still boring and samey, ie all random strength missile spells, instead of causing all kinds of weird and wonderful mutating and confusing effects?

Just take Plaguebearers mate. "Nurgle doesn't mess about"

 Solosam47 wrote:
So with different rule sets coming out that people are playing by I see a common theme on the warscroll count ones and that is limiting wizards to two warscrolls per army, cool I get that, dont want to many summoners or denial chances ect ect.....except pink horrors are wizards.....so in those formats that tosses tzeentch themed armies out the window

Well how have people been dealing with this in their local gaming group? Yeah I know i can adjust the rules for mine but the reason it comes up is Frontline gamings Fall/Winter AoS league is limiting it to 2x wizards, I brought it up on the article but to no avail on getting an answer

Can my fellow tzeentch followers scheme to get them to do something about this so I can have my LoC lead my Pink horrors and heralds to victory?

We've resolved this by NOT using any of the overly limiting community efforts to balance AoS. Instead, we're using the tools GW gave us and prioritizing sportsmanship. The core rules work fine so long as the goal is enjoying yourself and making sure your opponent would play you again in the future.

For a more useful answer... have you considered asking them to get rid of the restriction on Wizards, but say that only Wizards who ALSO have the Hero Keyword can summon? This keeps the effective restriction on summoning in place, but allows people to bring Wizard units of smaller non-Hero utility Wizards to the game. As is, the house rules you've described are overly restrictive and prevent people from playing the game. If they won't let you play with the models you bought, I'd look the owner right in the face and ask for a refund. Tell him you don't think it's fair that he sold you something that he's now not allowing you to use in his store. If you didn't buy it from him... well... then you can't really complain about his house rules. You're not a paying customer.

Either do what Kriswall said or try to convince the group to use a comp that offers better balance without problematic restrictions (Azyr and PPC are both good options). I don't know your group or what they will consider "overly limiting" but the two options I mentioned have barely any limitation beyond creating forces on a roughly equal playing field. So it is really up to you what you think will work best.

I dont really have a problem with this in my group per say but I see more and more tourny rules and league rule getting posted that limit this. Mainly I am trying to bring it up to the whole community so we can do something about this. I love my pink horrors and I know rats are not the only ones that have formations that require some more heroes than allowed, so we will see where that goes.

Having blanket restrictions on anything in AoS is short sighted and ultimately harmful to the game. Khorne Bloodbound are useless without multiple heroes just as tzeentch are useless without multiple wizards. Having limited wizards with a view to curbing summoning effects some armies immensely (Tzeentch, Skaven, Lizardmen, Undead/Tomb kings) and then has no effect on other armies (Khorne, Ogres, Stormcast, Empire)

Personally I would be asking the person who is implementing the rules to consider a change and promote sportsmanship over power gaming, if you get repeat offenders either ask them to change their habits or they will shortly find themselves with no opponents. If that doesn't work I suggest you find a new gaming group

Almost every vamp count hero is a wizard. This limit is crap.

Some armies are balanced around spellcasting. It's not just some random bonus.

Nerm86 wrote:
Having blanket restrictions on anything in AoS is short sighted and ultimately harmful to the game. Khorne Bloodbound are useless without multiple heroes just as tzeentch are useless without multiple wizards. Having limited wizards with a view to curbing summoning effects some armies immensely (Tzeentch, Skaven, Lizardmen, Undead/Tomb kings) and then has no effect on other armies (Khorne, Ogres, Stormcast, Empire)

Personally I would be asking the person who is implementing the rules to consider a change and promote sportsmanship over power gaming, if you get repeat offenders either ask them to change their habits or they will shortly find themselves with no opponents. If that doesn't work I suggest you find a new gaming group

Completely agree! It is far too short sighted and ruins alot of armies.

 Solosam47 wrote:

Nerm86 wrote:
Having blanket restrictions on anything in AoS is short sighted and ultimately harmful to the game. Khorne Bloodbound are useless without multiple heroes just as tzeentch are useless without multiple wizards. Having limited wizards with a view to curbing summoning effects some armies immensely (Tzeentch, Skaven, Lizardmen, Undead/Tomb kings) and then has no effect on other armies (Khorne, Ogres, Stormcast, Empire)

Personally I would be asking the person who is implementing the rules to consider a change and promote sportsmanship over power gaming, if you get repeat offenders either ask them to change their habits or they will shortly find themselves with no opponents. If that doesn't work I suggest you find a new gaming group

Completely agree! It is far too short sighted and ruins alot of armies.

I don't think the efforts to impose "balance" on the game have anything to do with actual balance. The core game is balanced fine if you include an expectation of sportsmanship. I think the efforts to impose "balance" are really more about creating a situation where total lack of sportsmanship is allowed without immediately breaking the game.

The reason I say this is because most of the justification for change starts with "if we don't do the following, TFG will exploit this".

 Kriswall wrote:

 Solosam47 wrote:

Nerm86 wrote:
Having blanket restrictions on anything in AoS is short sighted and ultimately harmful to the game. Khorne Bloodbound are useless without multiple heroes just as tzeentch are useless without multiple wizards. Having limited wizards with a view to curbing summoning effects some armies immensely (Tzeentch, Skaven, Lizardmen, Undead/Tomb kings) and then has no effect on other armies (Khorne, Ogres, Stormcast, Empire)

Personally I would be asking the person who is implementing the rules to consider a change and promote sportsmanship over power gaming, if you get repeat offenders either ask them to change their habits or they will shortly find themselves with no opponents. If that doesn't work I suggest you find a new gaming group

Completely agree! It is far too short sighted and ruins alot of armies.

I don't think the efforts to impose "balance" on the game have anything to do with actual balance. The core game is balanced fine if you include an expectation of sportsmanship. I think the efforts to impose "balance" are really more about creating a situation where total lack of sportsmanship is allowed without immediately breaking the game.

The reason I say this is because most of the justification for change starts with "if we don't do the following, TFG will exploit this".

There is always that guy that ruins things for everyone :(
The game can be well balanced but you are right, if there is a hole people will exploit it, but does it have to mean the rest of the armies have to be punished? What ways can we implement a punishment for people who cheese like all hell but at the same time not punish those who happen to run armies that fall into some of the restrictions?

I enjoy the house rule of not being able to summon a unit more than once, and only being able to summon units that you started with in your list. Although that only partially fixes the summoning issue with there still being other ways to exploit other units and mechanics.

 Solosam47 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Solosam47 wrote:

Nerm86 wrote:
Having blanket restrictions on anything in AoS is short sighted and ultimately harmful to the game. Khorne Bloodbound are useless without multiple heroes just as tzeentch are useless without multiple wizards. Having limited wizards with a view to curbing summoning effects some armies immensely (Tzeentch, Skaven, Lizardmen, Undead/Tomb kings) and then has no effect on other armies (Khorne, Ogres, Stormcast, Empire)

Personally I would be asking the person who is implementing the rules to consider a change and promote sportsmanship over power gaming, if you get repeat offenders either ask them to change their habits or they will shortly find themselves with no opponents. If that doesn't work I suggest you find a new gaming group

Completely agree! It is far too short sighted and ruins alot of armies.

I don't think the efforts to impose "balance" on the game have anything to do with actual balance. The core game is balanced fine if you include an expectation of sportsmanship. I think the efforts to impose "balance" are really more about creating a situation where total lack of sportsmanship is allowed without immediately breaking the game.

The reason I say this is because most of the justification for change starts with "if we don't do the following, TFG will exploit this".

There is always that guy that ruins things for everyone :(
The game can be well balanced but you are right, if there is a hole people will exploit it, but does it have to mean the rest of the armies have to be punished? What ways can we implement a punishment for people who cheese like all hell but at the same time not punish those who happen to run armies that fall into some of the restrictions?

I enjoy the house rule of not being able to summon a unit more than once, and only being able to summon units that you started with in your list. Although that only partially fixes the summoning issue with there still being other ways to exploit other units and mechanics.

You're thinking the wrong way. You're trying to punish the behaviors you don't want. This is hard to do. Instead, reward the behaviors you DO want. It's far more effective. If you want your community/tournament to show a high degree of sportsmanship, implement a sportsmanship score and make it so that a high score is required to place highly. I've seen events where you can win every single game and not place in the top 3 because your sportsmanship scores were terrible.

This works very effectively, but has to be a top down sort of thing. In other words, whoever runs the tournament or community needs to guide and enforce the culture. There is a local gaming group near where I live that I avoid because I've always gotten a very cold, winning is everything vibe when I go in. People buy painted armies off eBay and then practice endlessly to dominate tournament play. It feels like a group of people trying to master a technical skill with no art or humor present. AoS isn't doing well in this group partly due to the fact that sportsmanship and making sure everyone has fun aren't core values. The group simply isn't for me because I'm looking for something different. The group leadership apparently has no interest in building a culture of sportsmanship and fun. In the rare instances that I do go, I show up with a friend and really just use the tables.

TLDR - If your community/tournament leadership isn't willing to do something about problem players, make sure you only show up to play with someone you already know.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Solosam47 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Solosam47 wrote:

Nerm86 wrote:
Having blanket restrictions on anything in AoS is short sighted and ultimately harmful to the game. Khorne Bloodbound are useless without multiple heroes just as tzeentch are useless without multiple wizards. Having limited wizards with a view to curbing summoning effects some armies immensely (Tzeentch, Skaven, Lizardmen, Undead/Tomb kings) and then has no effect on other armies (Khorne, Ogres, Stormcast, Empire)

Personally I would be asking the person who is implementing the rules to consider a change and promote sportsmanship over power gaming, if you get repeat offenders either ask them to change their habits or they will shortly find themselves with no opponents. If that doesn't work I suggest you find a new gaming group

Completely agree! It is far too short sighted and ruins alot of armies.

I don't think the efforts to impose "balance" on the game have anything to do with actual balance. The core game is balanced fine if you include an expectation of sportsmanship. I think the efforts to impose "balance" are really more about creating a situation where total lack of sportsmanship is allowed without immediately breaking the game.

The reason I say this is because most of the justification for change starts with "if we don't do the following, TFG will exploit this".

There is always that guy that ruins things for everyone :(
The game can be well balanced but you are right, if there is a hole people will exploit it, but does it have to mean the rest of the armies have to be punished? What ways can we implement a punishment for people who cheese like all hell but at the same time not punish those who happen to run armies that fall into some of the restrictions?

I enjoy the house rule of not being able to summon a unit more than once, and only being able to summon units that you started with in your list. Although that only partially fixes the summoning issue with there still being other ways to exploit other units and mechanics.

You're thinking the wrong way. You're trying to punish the behaviors you don't want. This is hard to do. Instead, reward the behaviors you DO want. It's far more effective. If you want your community/tournament to show a high degree of sportsmanship, implement a sportsmanship score and make it so that a high score is required to place highly. I've seen events where you can win every single game and not place in the top 3 because your sportsmanship scores were terrible.

This works very effectively, but has to be a top down sort of thing. In other words, whoever runs the tournament or community needs to guide and enforce the culture. There is a local gaming group near where I live that I avoid because I've always gotten a very cold, winning is everything vibe when I go in. People buy painted armies off eBay and then practice endlessly to dominate tournament play. It feels like a group of people trying to master a technical skill with no art or humor present. AoS isn't doing well in this group partly due to the fact that sportsmanship and making sure everyone has fun aren't core values. The group simply isn't for me because I'm looking for something different. The group leadership apparently has no interest in building a culture of sportsmanship and fun. In the rare instances that I do go, I show up with a friend and really just use the tables.

TLDR - If your community/tournament leadership isn't willing to do something about problem players, make sure you only show up to play with someone you already know.

Hmmm yeah I see what you mean, thanks Kriswall! I will start to try to introduce this idea to my local shop!

After reading your point I can see where mine would create a continual cycle and the fact that its too hard to punish all these little cheese combos that potentially break the game.

We resolved this issue with just a few considerations. Units are summoned at their minimum unit count and summoned units cannot use hero abilities.