Generic Tactical Marine versus Generic Necron Warrior

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**Madokamagica**

So. I saw a small argument with some guy saying a Necron warrior could beat up a Space marine, so I decided to do the number crunching and find out.

Note: Reanimation protocals will be ignored since this is a 1v1. also this is 7th edition

Stats: Necron Warrior
WS: 4. BS:4. S:4. T:4. W:1. I:2. A.1 ld:10. Sv:4+
Weapon: Gauss Flayer.
Weapon Stats: R:24. S4. AP 5
Special Rules: Rapid Fire. Gauss (If I roll a 6. This gun will ignore all saves and wound no matter what)

Note: I am not a Space marine player, and I don't know very much about the Tactical marine. (correct me if anything is wrong)

Stats: Tactical marine
WS = 4 BS = 4 S = 4 T = 4 W = 1 I = 4 A = 1 Ld = 8 Sv = 3+
Chapter Tactic: Ultramarine (Re-Roll Shooting wounds once per game)
Weapon: Bolter R:24 S4. AP5
Special Rules: Rapid fire

So. Lets say The two fighters are standing 24 length apart. We shall assume they do nothing but shoot each other
The Space marine has the higher initiative so he goes first
His BS is 4 so he has to roll higher than a 3 in order to hit
(Rolled a 4) he hits successfully. Rolling Armor Save
(Rolled 6) The Necron warrior has a armor save of 4+, the Tactical marine's Wimpy bolter didn't do crap
The Warrior Shoots the Marine (roll BS4)
The Warrior Hits (rolled a 4) and passed the Armor save with a 6. killing the space marine

Now I'll do this 5 times

(Marine won.)
(Warrior won)
(warrior won again)
(Marine won)

(Warrior:3 Marine:2)

Conclusion: The Warrior is only slightly better than the Marine. but both are very very much the same.

(Edit) I forgotten about roll-to-wound. rolls.

**Filch**

I am not convinced because you ignored Reanimated Protocol.

**SharkoutofWata**

That's not how Gauss works. Gauss doesn't Rend or ignore saves. It just causes a wound automatically. It can still be saved.

**oldzoggy**

Madokamagica wrote:
So. I saw a small argument with some guy saying a Necron warrior could beat up a Space marine, so I decided to do the number crunching and find out.

Note: Reanimation protocals will be ignored since this is a 1v1. also this is 7th edition
...

...
Conclusion: The Warrior is only slightly better than the Marine. but both are very very much the same.

Whut wait you tried to mathhammer necron warriors and ignored reanimation protocals :\

Lets do terminators next and ignore the terminator armour.

**vipoid**

A few points:

1) Gauss doesn't ignore armour saves on a to-wound roll of 6, it just wounds automatically (so you could would T8+, even though S4 wouldn't normally be able to)

2) Initiative is only relevant in combat - it shouldn't determine who gets to shoot first.

3) It might be better to do this with squads (rather than single men), with one SM upgraded with plasma, melta or Grav. Using more people means you're more likely to get an average result. And, since SMs can take upgraded weapons (ans will), but Warriors can't, this should probably be taken into consideration.

4) Just saw that you also ignored Resurrection Protocols... eh?

**oldzoggy**

Are we being trolled ?

**SkavenLord**

Interesting argument. I didn't know Necron Warriors and Tactical Marines were that similar.

I think the result would depend on the context. If the marine was in close combat with the warrior, the marine's I = 4 might change the course of the battle. If other chapter tactics were given (I heard Ultramarines have 3 different types), maybe that might provide a different outcome.

If the tactical marine was a sergeant, which would have a pistol and a close combat weapon, would give it A = 2 due to the bolt pistol counting as an additional close combat weapon.

**DoomShakaLaka**

You didn't factor in Chapter Tactics.

**Otto Weston**

Ignoring RP = ignoring a fundamental reason as to why the Necron beats the Space marine

**Alcibiades**

ooh ooh I've done this math before!

The tac marine wins if he uses tactical doctrines, loses otherwise.

Really I think that the SM codex is built mainly with those in mind. It's a matter of knowing when to use them.

**Anrakyr-the-Traveller**

I think that I might be the one who proposed that a warrior could defeat a space marine (I did it in the necrons vs orks poll in the background section). I'm sorry to say, but this test just isn't evidence to support the tac side. Ignoring rp, which is the only reason that a warrior is superior when fighting a tac marine, invalidates your argument. In addition, your didn't roll to wound, although this is less of an issue since iirc bolters and gauss flayers have the same strength and ap. You seem to have used the wrong rule for gauss as well (it doesn't even come into play in this battle). In addition, you only ran the test 5 times. To get a very statistical answer, you'd need to run this test dozens or even hundreds of times. Id encourage you to redo the test, using proper rules. I'm not going to suggest using squads because your intention seems to be to find who is better 1v1. Finally, let the warrior and marine get into cc. It's an integral part of the game/lore, and it would be unfair to say: "x is better than y" when you only tested for shooting.

**Slayer-Fan123**

This thread is just a train wreck at this point. Like, it has no point of existing.

**niv-mizzet**

I think you may want to research the game mechanics a little more thoroughly before putting together data.

**Yoyoyo**

Through extensive testing, I have discovered SM armor is highly vulnerable to dice rolls of 1's and 2's after suffering a wound.

I advise you to avoid rolling 1's and 2's while making armour saves, it will help your troops last longer.

Thank you all for your attention!

**niv-mizzet**

In fact, here, let me help you.

Warrior with standard 5+ RP vs ultramarine tactical marine. 24" separation with full closing movement each turn. Charge of 6" assumed to succeed and is mandatory.
Warrior goes first: .11 wounds to the marine
Marine closes to 12", blows dev doctrine, does .26 wounds with rapid fire.
Warrior closes and charges. (If he does not and rapid fires for .22 damage, the marine's tactical doctrine next turn with pistol and 2 attacks on charge will tear him apart with .4 on a single round.) Rapid fire Overwatch does .06 wounds to warrior. Marine does .083 wounds at higher init. Warrior does .17 wounds on charge.
Marine blows tactical doctrine. Does .12 wounds. Warrior hits back for .083 wounds
Standings: marine has lost .363 wounds. Warrior has lost .523
Marine hits for .083, warrior hits for .083
Marine assault doctrines and hits for .097, warrior hits for .083.
Standings: marine has lost .529 wounds. Warrior has lost .703
They will continue to hit each other for .083 each round until the warrior reaches 1 average wound first while the marine has just under .8 wounds. (Would've had 8.8 or so, but the last hit that kills the warrior is higher initiative.)

Round 2, marine goes first
Marine dev doctrines, does .13 wounds. Necron closes and rapid fires for .22
Marine tac doctrines, does .15 with pistol, then charges for .25. Necron does .06 rapid fire overwatch and .083 with an attack back.
Standings: marine has taken .36 damage. necron has .63 damage
Other than the assault doctrine attack, they will continue smacking each other for .083 and the warrior will die first, by a wider margin this time.

That is a better way to do analysis.

**harkequin**

The simple way to look at it is the stats are identical bar initiative and leadership.

A vanilla bolter marine is equal to a warrior, except with +2 init, -2 Ld.

Gauss flayers = Bolters. (S4 AP5 Rapid fire)
Saves are equal (1/3 = 1/2 x 2/3)

So right off the bat it's a draw, unless CC is included, where the marine has +2 init, so he has the advantage.
If Doctrines are included the marine gets an advantage the warrior does not , and wins.

In a straight 1v1 the marine wins.
In an equal points match they would still likely win as they are so close in points.

In a contest of who can kill a land raider, or who can survive psychic shriek the best, the warrior wins. These are the advantages they have over the tac marine, which do not come into play here.

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

^what he said, they are nearly identical in survivability until the weapon fired at them is ap4, then the marine wins. When the weapon hits ap3 suddenly the warrior wins out. Since most people seem to use volume of fire to drop most enemies the two models mentioned here will have the same level of protection in most instances.

Necrons just FEEL more durable because you see them fail a save, and then subconsciously feel cheated if they roll a successful reanimation protocol check.

**Slayer-Fan123**

The Warrior is considerably more durable. A Marine has a 66% chance to save something that wounded them. A Necron Warrior has a 75% chance ignore the wound. Against anything not AP4, the Warrior wins out.

**harkequin**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Warrior is considerably more durable. A Marine has a 66% chance to save something that wounded them. A Necron Warrior has a 75% chance ignore the wound. Against anything not AP4, the Warrior wins out.

That's not a vanilla warrior though, that's either buffed by a support unit like a cryptek, or a decurion deatchment.
A vanilla warrior is 4+/5+++ which means he takes 1/3 non ap4 wounds. The Marine statistically beats the warrior as they are identical except

1. marine has higher I, necron higher Ld
2. Marine has ATSKNF , Necron has gauss
3 Marine survives 2/3 AP4 shots, necron survives 1/3
4.marine survives 0 ap 3 shots, necron survives 1/3

In a 1v1 we can ignore points 2,3 & 4. And point 1 offers the marine an advantage, and offers the necron none (ld doesnt do diddly when noone has fear, and everyone has 1 wound)

This is all before including chapter tactics/doctrines.

**Mantorok**

I actually have had 13 necron warriors go up against 10 tactical marines.
Turn one I shot, taking them down to 2 marines. Then I charged.
The two marines lasted for 3 turns in CC. on the 4th turn of CC one died.
On the 5th turn the other died.
I lost no warriors.
I don't know how that relays up to what has been said, but I feel that the experience should count for something.

**vipoid**

26 S4 shots killing 8 marines is unlikely, to say the least.

**Slayer-Fan123**

harkequin wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Warrior is considerably more durable. A Marine has a 66% chance to save something that wounded them. A Necron Warrior has a 75% chance ignore the wound. Against anything not AP4, the Warrior wins out.

That's not a vanilla warrior though, that's either buffed by a support unit like a cryptek, or a decurion deatchment.
A vanilla warrior is 4+/5+++ which means he takes 1/3 non ap4 wounds. The Marine statistically beats the warrior as they are identical except

1. marine has higher I, necron higher Ld
2. Marine has ATSKNF , Necron has gauss
3 Marine survives 2/3 AP4 shots, necron survives 1/3
4.marine survives 0 ap 3 shots, necron survives 1/3

In a 1v1 we can ignore points 2,3 & 4. And point 1 offers the marine an advantage, and offers the necron none (ld doesnt do diddly when noone has fear, and everyone has 1 wound)

This is all before including chapter tactics/doctrines.

Nobody takes Warriors outside a Decurion though. Mathhammer has always been done within a Decurion for that exact reason. Otherwise, the only troops taken are Immortals to unlock other things due to them being a "troop tax".

As well, there's Chapter Tactics that either don't matter (Salamanders won't matter in this scenario, for example), or we forget the Doctrines are unlocked under the Gladius, which is their Decurion equivalent.

**raverrn**

This is a masterful troll.

**jasper76**

There's several factors that don't fit neatly into a mathhammer solution that Marine players sometimes forget in these types of comparisons:

-A Tactical Marine has frag and krack grenades, while the Necrons Warrior has no grenades.
-A Tactical Marine is in a unit with one Heavy Weapon and one Special Weapon upgrade, while the Necron Warrior is in a unit with no upgrades.
-A Tactical Marine is in a unit wih a Sergeant who has numerous upgrades available, while the Necron Warrior is in a unit with no sergeant equivalent.

**Akiasura**

jasper76 wrote:
There's several factors that don't fit neatly into a mathhammer solution that Marine players sometimes forget in these types of comparisons:

-A Tactical Marine has frag and krack grenades, while the Necrons Warrior has no grenades.

Maybe it's my games, but grenades don't come up often. Basic marines are rarely charging, so frag doesn't come up. If they were defensive grenades they would be way better.
Krak grenades don't come up often, though more often than frag grenades do. Tanks aren't usually in charge range of marines until the end of the game, if they are at all. I don't charge MC's with marines very often.

jasper76 wrote:

-A Tactical Marine is in a unit with one Heavy Weapon and one Special Weapon upgrade, while the Necron Warrior is in a unit with no upgrades.

True, the reason why this isn't done in math hammer is for several reasons.
1) The necrons would need to get extra guys to compensate for the point cost. This became an issue when I was doing a similar math hammer situation, where the marines got ~40 points of free upgrades in weapons and the sarge, but the other guy got nothing. When you are comparing squads that cost in the 120-150 range, that's a 33% increase in point cost that is not being added to the other side.

2) What loadout do you use? Again, last time I did such a test with marines, the marines seemed to have the best gun for the job in every scenario. I think we all can agree the most common is plasma gun + possible friend. Yet against Orks a flamer was used, against marines a plasma gun was used, etc etc.

3) Which targets do you put them against? Special weapons are only effective against certain targets. One of the draws of Dire Avengers or Warriors is that you tend to fire them at certain types of targets, but they do decent work against those targets. Marines usually do worse against those selected targets, but better against others. The issue is, the others don't come up as often as the targets Warriors or Avengers are good against.

jasper76 wrote:

-A Tactical Marine is in a unit wih a Sergeant who has numerous upgrades available, while the Necron Warrior is in a unit with no sergeant equivalent.

Usually I see the sarge take a combi weapon of some kind or he takes nothing at all. Are you seeing different loadouts?

**jasper76**

Regarding sergeants, yeah I'm not a big tournament guy, so take this with a grain of salt, but I see them in all flavors of the rainbow, except for plain with no upgrades, which I can't remember any of my friends using.

**Lythrandire Biehrellian**

The tactical marine can throw a krakk grenade if within 8". Thus rendering the single necron warrior almost useless. S6 ap4 for the win.

You don't get to count decurion for their bonus because the free razorback that the marine gets outright stomps the single warrior from 36" away. Formation bonuses CANNOT be taken into consideration when looking at a basic units worth in a one on one situation.

**Akiasura**

You can if it's the only time the unit is taken.

**harkequin**

Akiasura wrote:
You can if it's the only time the unit is taken.

It's not though, warriors are taken outside of decurion plenty, and it defeats the purpose of a 1 v 1 fight.

**Akiasura**

I usually see immortals taken locally, and we don't allow formations (very few exceptions, like nids and demons). Could be a local thing though they seem better.