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Heldrake being csms ideal unit to deal with this new unit is effectively nullified by its snapfire once per game rule.

You are lucky if you can get off the board and get another shot with the Drake before the end of the game because of it.

Only solution really is to spam heldrakes.

 Konrax wrote:
Heldrake being csms ideal unit to deal with this new unit is effectively nullified by its snapfire once per game rule.

You are lucky if you can get off the board and get another shot with the Drake before the end of the game because of it.

Only solution really is to spam heldrakes.

3 Heldrakes in a CAD.

Now, I'm not stupid, so unless you manage to target me with other sufficiently good ignores cover or something else worth worrying about, I'll be saving my negations for that Baleflamer. That means you'll need to Baleflame the unit three times before you can start laying down damage. By that point, I'll have shot down at least one of your flyers and will be maneuvering to be difficult to torrent.

Much better idea: Spend some of those FA slots on the wide range of 12 inch move assault units chaos have access to. If you do keep a Heldrake, I suggest using it to remove my lesser stealth suits first. Some players will take minimum squads of them for the formation benefit, but I'm a believer in committing instead of taking taxes, and massed burst cannons are an excellent damage dealer against the majority of things. Especially hitting rear armour, meaning pretty much only superheavy vehicles and the larger monstrous and gargantuan creatures aren't vulnerable.

Is their firepower well suited for killing spawn? I also thought the ghostkeel unit can only trigger it once per game, not each one once?

I assumed the first shot would be a wash and then the second one could get through?

He's referring to the ghostkeel's being 3 in a unit. Each one can pop off their countermeasures, effectively giving snap shots to 3 units targeting it per game.

Well...there is the fact that CSM don't have the greatest of Codexes (understatement of the decade?)

That said, use the Helldrakes to isolate the Ghostkeel unit (ie kill the other units around it) then charge it with something scary (and can handle Overwatch if you can't quite killing the Supporting Fire units) and take it out in CC.

It's designed to whether shooting attacks. Don't be blowing your shooting capabilities into it. That's like saying having Grav to deal with the horde of Hormagaunts with a Venomthrope nearby when you've got access to Flamers.

Mr ghoti wrote:
He's referring to the ghostkeel's being 3 in a unit. Each one can pop off their countermeasures, effectively giving snap shots to 3 units targeting it per game.

Do they each act independently or actually as a unit?

It's... unclear. There's a bit of debate over that.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It's... unclear. There's a bit of debate over that.

The rule effectively states that the model can use it once per game, and that it's unit must announce the usage before the shot is resolved.

The fact that the model and the unit are both referenced leads to differing interpretations, the more harsh of which is that announcing the unit is protected means all models must fire their countermeasures at once.

well, you can roast the other components of his army, specially Stealth and Crisis Suits. Throw a Juggerlord at Ghostkeels and they'll die

My main force is a tzeentch force that uses oblits mainly so these units on paper seem rather difficult to deal with.

I also run 2x 5 man units of nurgle spawn as a screen which could work assuming their firepower doesn't just melt them.

why is everyone trying to shoot tau to death, throw spawn at it, throw a juggerlord at it throw anything at in assault, stop trying to outshoot it for empy's sake

GAdvance wrote:
why is everyone trying to shoot tau to death, throw spawn at it, throw a juggerlord at it throw anything at in assault, stop trying to outshoot it for empy's sake

Please look at the post directly above yours.

Are spawn even viable or would they get chewed to bits?

Im a tad fuzzy on Ghostkeel weapons strength but I would think Nurgle spawn would do best because they wont be instant killed at tough 6 so their 3 wounds should help get there. Nurgle Spawn of course mean Khorne Lords in Juggernauts cant tag along though. But the tried and true Nurgle Biker Lord is still an option.

At this point shouldnt every Khore Lord be pulled from KDK and have a mass of hounds as an escort anyway though?

Deadza wrote:
Im a tad fuzzy on Ghostkeel weapons strength but I would think Nurgle spawn would do best because they wont be instant killed at tough 6 so their 3 wounds should help get there. Nurgle Spawn of course mean Khorne Lords in Juggernauts cant tag along though. But the tried and true Nurgle Biker Lord is still an option.

At this point shouldnt every Khore Lord be pulled from KDK and have a mass of hounds as an escort anyway though?

I take mass hounds and 10 spawn with my kdk army.

It would work but my real army I enjoy most is my tzeentch

The other solution is to vector strike or psychic shriek the bugger. The holophotons can only be triggered in the shooting phase, and chaos armies have no shortage of fast, tough, high mastery level telepaths.

If you aren't taking your spawn from Siege of vraks, you are doing something wrong.

Are we talking about the mega spawn that has no model?

 Konrax wrote:
Heldrake being csms ideal unit to deal with this new unit is effectively nullified by its snapfire once per game rule.

You are lucky if you can get off the board and get another shot with the Drake before the end of the game because of it.

Only solution really is to spam heldrakes.

Or to target a unit adjacent to a Ghostkeel - placement will be key, for both players. No targetting of ghostkeel means no counter measures.. Still 1 wound vs 5W total?

To counter ghostkeel with chaos .... Cultists. Lots and lots of cultists. With guns. BIG guns. Or not. Whatever they happen to have is fine. As long as it's LOTS of them.

Then make them invisible

And not afraid of stuff cause they have a preacher.

= ghoskeel goes away.

Razerous wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
Heldrake being csms ideal unit to deal with this new unit is effectively nullified by its snapfire once per game rule.

You are lucky if you can get off the board and get another shot with the Drake before the end of the game because of it.

Only solution really is to spam heldrakes.

Or to target a unit adjacent to a Ghostkeel - placement will be key, for both players. No targetting of ghostkeel means no counter measures.. Still 1 wound vs 5W total?

If you can hit the drones too it could soften them up enough for normal firepower to finish it off.

Assuming you can even hit it with an ignores cover weapon.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
If you aren't taking your spawn from Siege of vraks, you are doing something wrong.

You mean the Spawn that cant be marked, require CSM to take an allied detachment, and probably require a whole entire expensive codex purchase? Pass.

Sure Rage is cool and being troops is cool, but I will pay Nurgle for +1 tough any day. The Vraks Spawn are excellent in their own list Im sure.

Why would you want to fire the helldrake at ghosts anyway? They have 4 wounds, and im willing to bet every single one is still going to have either a 4++ or FNP (both is a bit too pricy but possible) on top of the 4 wounds.

Do like others have said. Clear around the ghosts by wiping out crisis teams, stealth teams, firewarrior squads, etc. Ignoring cover and penning armor doesnt mean much when theres so many wounds involved. Yeah theres also 9 drones to add to the wound pool but personally i plan on keeping my drones in FRONT because i'd rather lose them first (until the last 2, one for shrouded one for backup in case it gets sniped).
Also the reason the holophotons are hazy is because GW for some stupid reason mentions "unit" in the giant paragraph that already mentioned Model several times. Considering it doesnt stack and youre forced to pay for it every time, it makes no sense that you have to fire them all off at once anyway.

 DarthSpader wrote:
To counter ghostkeel with chaos .... Cultists. Lots and lots of cultists. With guns. BIG guns. Or not. Whatever they happen to have is fine. As long as it's LOTS of them.

Then make them invisible

And not afraid of stuff cause they have a preacher.

= ghoskeel goes away.

I feel like that is a terrible use of points, unless by big guns you mean Traitor Guard? Not sure, so I assume you mean just out of codex CSM and in that case why would they just let a max blocked unit of invisible cultists slowly wander into the Ghost Keel squad? They would probably body block with Pathfinders/Fire Warriors IF they couldnt out maneuver the Cultists.

At least a Lord with a retinue of Spawn/Hounds/Bikes will be fast and able to maybe even kill things especially making use of Invisibility. Cultists are just awful except holding a back field objective for cheap.

Personal opinion / experience if course.

I agree, and currently my main unit is 2x terminator sorcs and 3x tzeentch oblits that could take them on, but that is my main unit and should be focused on killing more important units.

I guess using the Drake to kill marker lights and the spawn can deal with those stealth units then.

 Konrax wrote:

GAdvance wrote:
why is everyone trying to shoot tau to death, throw spawn at it, throw a juggerlord at it throw anything at in assault, stop trying to outshoot it for empy's sake

Please look at the post directly above yours.

Are spawn even viable or would they get chewed to bits?

sorry can't believe i missed that

Yep spawn are pretty cheap for what they do, you stick a group of them around a bike sorcerer and you run them headlong into the biggest problem the enemy have for you, it's a very simple way of putting pressure on the enemy and they'll absolutely destroy tau units in a fight though you might need to have 2-3 units of them charging simultaneously so that overwatch doesn't destroy your one fast melee unit, losing one or two units on the way won't matter since once you're on him you WILL win the fight

the only fluffly tzeentch thing i can think off with oblits is to use bike sorcerers (common theme here lol) and throw breath of chaos on them, it's posioned ignores cover and ap2, Doombolt them (beams ignore cover right i genuinely dont know but imagine they do) or roll a few times on divination... every power but forewarning can be pretty useful against ghostkeels, one will give you a 4++ (which if you're mark of tzeentch will be 3++) to make it easier to get in charge range and another will ignore cover, throw that your oblits

Sadly something like the ghostkeel is going to be hard to deal with but these all seem pretty solid options you will have to me that will either be tzeentch themed or only be a slight deviation

Doesnt the Ghostkeel's rules state that the "Snap fire only" portion is directed at shooting directly targeting them?

If they decide to keep the stupid things next to anything (Like right next to other units, perhaps inside their fancy new D-Line) Just aim for other models, and play the Baleflamer template in such a way that you can hit them as well as it isn't directly targeting them.

 Konrax wrote:
I agree, and currently my main unit is 2x terminator sorcs and 3x tzeentch oblits that could take them on, but that is my main unit and should be focused on killing more important units.

I guess using the Drake to kill marker lights and the spawn can deal with those stealth units then.

Seems like a dangerous way to run if you ask me. First, if both Sorcerer's are in the same unit, they can't each attempt to manifest the same power. 2nd, you stand a good chance of having both your Sorcerers running away if 2 Oblits die.

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Doesnt the Ghostkeel's rules state that the "Snap fire only" portion is directed at shooting directly targeting them?

If they decide to keep the stupid things next to anything (Like right next to other units, perhaps inside their fancy new D-Line) Just aim for other models, and play the Baleflamer template in such a way that you can hit them as well as it isn't directly targeting them.

This is true, same works for countering Invisibility. Nothing says they cant be hit just cant be targeted due to snaps.

 KhorneontheCobb wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
I agree, and currently my main unit is 2x terminator sorcs and 3x tzeentch oblits that could take them on, but that is my main unit and should be focused on killing more important units.

I guess using the Drake to kill marker lights and the spawn can deal with those stealth units then.

Seems like a dangerous way to run if you ask me. First, if both Sorcerer's are in the same unit, they can't each attempt to manifest the same power. 2nd, you stand a good chance of having both your Sorcerers running away if 2 Oblits die.

One rolls tzeentch x1 and biomancy x2, other rolls telepathy x3 or divination.

I usually roll on personal warlord traits and there is fearless in there. Secondly they are ld10 which usually can get them through some rough patches, and as always telepathy always seems to give me that damn fearless ability anyways.

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Doesnt the Ghostkeel's rules state that the "Snap fire only" portion is directed at shooting directly targeting them?

If they decide to keep the stupid things next to anything (Like right next to other units, perhaps inside their fancy new D-Line) Just aim for other models, and play the Baleflamer template in such a way that you can hit them as well as it isn't directly targeting them.

Just remember, you must cover as many models as possible from the unit you target, and if it's a vehicle you must cover as much of the vehicle as possible with the template. It's gonna be harder than you think.