Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Got a tournament, ITC format, 1850pts, in the incoming weekend. Which there will be several Eldar armies, so I am expecting to meet many "OP" stuffs on the table and decide to go "chesemonger" and submitted a list containing a skyhammer formation (classic full 10 men Dev Squads, with 4 grav cannon and 4 MM for somehow TAC purpose), supported by a Libby conclave led by Tigirius, and one CAD led by "Captain Smashbane" and his command squad, with a TFC incase run into hordes army and the need to pick off those unlucky guys whose transports got destroyed by the skyhammers.

The lists for all armies are firmed one week ago. So now this thread is "Tactics talioring" only. Though I won't be knowing any other players' list before I met them on tabletop, unless they willingly open it, one of the worst case scenario I can imagine, may be running into list like this:
Jetseer council,
supporting CAD led by Autrach skyrunner,
3 units of 5 Scatbikes or 5 units of 3 Scatbikes.
One or two dreaded Wraith Knight
and/or Wraithguard in Wave Serpent
and finally Aspect Warrior formation with 3 units of 5 Warp Spider

I try to consider tactics from my opponents' point of view: If I play that Eldar list, and saw Skyhammer. I might keep everything except the Warp Spiders in reserve. In that case, is it better for the skyhammer side to deploy and go first, or deploy and go second? Since the preset terrains only have two major LOS blocking terrains in the centre of broad, other terrains are less than marines shoulder height which only porvide cover saves. I might have some chances to criple those Warp Spiders within two turns. But it is a great gamble that if I don't win an epic victory within two turns, I will lose without any further question when his WK, bikers, WG come in.

The second big discussion here is, there will definitely be psychic duel between Tigirius and the Eldar Farseer if the two armies met. Aside from Invisibility, what is the most important power for the two armies to go off respectively? Furthermore, as the marine player, should I let Tigirius in the conclave to roll on Telepathy for well known reason or Divination fishing for "perfect timing" to stripe off the 4+ cover of that WK with one toe touching the ruin base?

It is going to be chese list against chese list fight. What I am hoping for is to get some pre game strategic plan against the "well known OP" army. Any ideas, suggestions and comments are welcomed. I also hope the discussion here may inspire a few insights of tactics for other alpha strike armies, as well the guys opposing them.

Well I've played against ITC tourney eldar quite a bit and managed to come out on top in every match, so here's what I can offer.

ITC missions are very objective based, so I murder the obsec bikes as hard as I can. Leaving even one to zip somewhere at the end of the game with obsec puts the whole match in jeopardy. My biggest hope is that my eldar opponent thinks that I want to quickly alpha his wraithknight or council, and reserves those instead, or deploys them super defensively bubble wrapped by my real targets, the standard bikes.

As for the psykers, I always run culexus in my tourney lists so I'm not faced with that awful catch 22: if you go first they reserve the council, if you go second the council gets to buff and become nigh immortal. Culexus is the man to turn that situation around, but I guess if your list is set in stone, nothing we can do about that now. Generally speaking, if your list can null deploy, going second is the far superior option in ITC missions. Without mr. Cool along, a decent eldar player will not get their seer council caught unprepared and unbuffed, so just accept it and shoot other stuff.

A lot of eldar players like to snag the relic in mission 3 with their wraithknights. Always remember that the relic IS an objective and you can contest it even if someone else has it in hand, even claim it if you are obsec and they aren't. I've even had an eldar player unaware of this carry the relic on his melee WK to my deployment zone for me.

Overall the eldar lists are never going to give you an easy fight, and you will almost always be limping away even if you did win, so good luck.

If he reserves everything bar the spiders, drop in a charge 2 with the ASM and try and find a spot where you can deploy the gravs with at least 2 cannons having vision around an obstacle (shouldn't be too hard with inertial guidance prevent most of the risk for you) and then blam the remaining unit and then he's tabled before his stuff come on from reserves.

Just remember not to shoot the 2 units of spiders before you assault them and they won't be able to run away. You only need to do a casualty or 2 and they should run.

I second Niv-Mizzet here, a Culexus makes so many of these problems go away. Shame your lists are already locked in.

 Drasius wrote:
If he reserves everything bar the spiders, drop in a charge 2 with the ASM and try and find a spot where you can deploy the gravs with at least 2 cannons having vision around an obstacle (shouldn't be too hard with inertial guidance prevent most of the risk for you) and then blam the remaining unit and then he's tabled before his stuff come on from reserves.

Just remember not to shoot the 2 units of spiders before you assault them and they won't be able to run away. You only need to do a casualty or 2 and they should run.

I second Niv-Mizzet here, a Culexus makes so many of these problems go away. Shame your lists are already locked in.

If he has an Exarch with his Spiders they are not going anywhere. "Iron Will" will see to that, so don't count on making them run. 5 are not that hard to kill. I have played Spiders alot and 5 is not enough. 7-8 now we are talking serious threat.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Well I've played against ITC tourney eldar quite a bit and managed to come out on top in every match, so here's what I can offer.

ITC missions are very objective based, so I murder the obsec bikes as hard as I can. Leaving even one to zip somewhere at the end of the game with obsec puts the whole match in jeopardy. My biggest hope is that my eldar opponent thinks that I want to quickly alpha his wraithknight or council, and reserves those instead, or deploys them super defensively bubble wrapped by my real targets, the standard bikes.

As for the psykers, I always run culexus in my tourney lists so I'm not faced with that awful catch 22: if you go first they reserve the council, if you go second the council gets to buff and become nigh immortal. Culexus is the man to turn that situation around, but I guess if your list is set in stone, nothing we can do about that now. Generally speaking, if your list can null deploy, going second is the far superior option in ITC missions. Without mr. Cool along, a decent eldar player will not get their seer council caught unprepared and unbuffed, so just accept it and shoot other stuff.

A lot of eldar players like to snag the relic in mission 3 with their wraithknights. Always remember that the relic IS an objective and you can contest it even if someone else has it in hand, even claim it if you are obsec and they aren't. I've even had an eldar player unaware of this carry the relic on his melee WK to my deployment zone for me.

Overall the eldar lists are never going to give you an easy fight, and you will almost always be limping away even if you did win, so good luck.

Thanks for the advice Niv, my usual playstyle is Droppod marines supportted by long range backfield units. So I can almost do null deployment and will seriously consider going seond. What I need would be smart counter deployment to keep my TFC and captain smashbane alive for the first two rounds. Waiting for the skyhammer coming in.
I notice that the Culexus is a great tool to fight seer council. And defintely GK, Daemons, and probabily Nids. But I haven't figure out a way to let him catch the Jetseer councils. Once he come out of the droppod, he can only nulified those psychic power for one turn as the jetseer could use their insane mobility to get away in their turn. And the Culexus would be dead for sure when targeted by 15 Scatter Laser from 36inches away, even though it is BS1.
Thanks for the advices again, I may try to destroy those bikers first when hammer falls


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Drasius wrote:
If he reserves everything bar the spiders, drop in a charge 2 with the ASM and try and find a spot where you can deploy the gravs with at least 2 cannons having vision around an obstacle (shouldn't be too hard with inertial guidance prevent most of the risk for you) and then blam the remaining unit and then he's tabled before his stuff come on from reserves.

Just remember not to shoot the 2 units of spiders before you assault them and they won't be able to run away. You only need to do a casualty or 2 and they should run.

I second Niv-Mizzet here, a Culexus makes so many of these problems go away. Shame your lists are already locked in.

Thanks for the suggestion I initially considered dropping TFC barrage on them. 60 inch barrage may made those spiders nowhere to run unless they are 48 inch away. I might consider corner them to their table edge and charge other two units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Erik_Morkai wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
If he reserves everything bar the spiders, drop in a charge 2 with the ASM and try and find a spot where you can deploy the gravs with at least 2 cannons having vision around an obstacle (shouldn't be too hard with inertial guidance prevent most of the risk for you) and then blam the remaining unit and then he's tabled before his stuff come on from reserves.

Just remember not to shoot the 2 units of spiders before you assault them and they won't be able to run away. You only need to do a casualty or 2 and they should run.

I second Niv-Mizzet here, a Culexus makes so many of these problems go away. Shame your lists are already locked in.

If he has an Exarch with his Spiders they are not going anywhere. "Iron Will" will see to that, so don't count on making them run. 5 are not that hard to kill. I have played Spiders alot and 5 is not enough. 7-8 now we are talking serious threat.

Thanks for the tip. What is the Ld of the Exarch? I am also thinking use psychic shierk on them when my librarius conclave come in. Their flicker jump trickery performed in my shooting phase. So does it mean they can't run away from psychic attack?

I also have a question, maybe stupid, as I haven't fought hit and run units. When they perform hit and run. Do they perform it like falling back from combat (i.e. moving to their own broad edge) or they perform it like consolidate at the end of combat: i.e. moving in any direction they want.

For hit and run, they take an init check first. Assuming they pass, they now declare a direction and then roll 3d6. Their models must move that far in that direction. They ignore the enemy unit they were in combat with, and stop before running off the edge of the board, into impassable terrain, or another enemy unit.

An advanced tactic for stopping it is that if any of their dudes can't get at least an inch away from the unit they're trying to h&r away from, the attempt fails automatically. A simple example would be if the combat was by a board edge, and you semi-circle-surround the combat with an unengaged unit before they try to run at the end of your turn.

But Warp Spiders can JSJ over people.

[quote=Neophyte2012 670187 8254989 null

Thanks for the tip. What is the Ld of the Exarch? I am also thinking use psychic shierk on them when my librarius conclave come in. Their flicker jump trickery performed in my shooting phase. So does it mean they can't run away from psychic attack?

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
[quote=Neophyte2012 670187 8254989 null

Thanks for the tip. What is the Ld of the Exarch? I am also thinking use psychic shierk on them when my librarius conclave come in. Their flicker jump trickery performed in my shooting phase. So does it mean they can't run away from psychic attack?

LD has 9 but Iron Will means the squad automatically passes morale, pinning and regroup tests. It's not fearless in the sense they can be affected by fear and can go to ground but it's all the good without the bad.

Was it the FA Cup? I think we had lunch together! How did you end up doing?

 Fruzzle wrote:
Was it the FA Cup? I think we had lunch together! How did you end up doing?

Haha, yes. I was not knowing that you had traveled that far to here. Hope you enjoyed the journey in Hong Kong.

In the 3rd game of the tournament, I met a Eldar player who brought two CADs so he has two D-sword Wraith Knights , 2 Farseer skyrunners, 5 units of 3 Scatbikes, 3 Hornets and 3 Crimson Hunters. Against my Skyhammer, Libby Conclave, Captain Smashbane and his command squad, 2 Scouts and 1 LSS, 5 men Sternguards in Droppod, and one TFC.

Psychic power wise, the Libby Conclave got Terrify, Shrouding, Invisibility; Perfect Timing, Misfortune; Life Leech, Warp Speed. Farseers all rolled on Telepathy, got 2 Invisibility, 1 terrify, two shrouding, 1 dominate.

The game started with Eldar players going first, getting all his six fast attack units in reserve, and cramming all units on table but one jetbike in the two central ruins which might be a big mistake, and he only get 8 warp dices in his psychic phase, which he caste two invisibility on both WKs he infiltrated forwards (due to Master of Ambush), so his farseers and Scatbikers are pretty unprotected. When came my turn, the skyhammer falls and epic things happened: with the combined psychic attacks, buff and debuff, volley of grav, melta, TFC barrage, and the assault of the Assault Marines, saw all Eldar units on table excepted the two WKs are destroyed. However, with the WKs multi-charged the Captain squad and two Devastator squads, and his reserves coming in, seems trouble started to come to Marine side but I still kept one point in lead in secondary objective until turn four. Moreover the Captain and his retinues tied up the D-sword WK for 3 full turns, and managed to knocked the WK down to his last wound way above my expectation.

The turning point occurred at the bottom of turn four, the Wraith Knight fighting the invisible Tigirius and his Dev squad meatshields rolled double on the stomp table , and the Wraith Knight fighting the Captain also rolled a on stomp attack . With these two key combat ended at this unlucky moment, the Eldar proceeded to kill all but the LSS in the final turn. Since only 5 turns are played due to time limit, if those sixes stomps occurred at EVEN JUST ONE combat phase later, I could have at the TFC and gunner sitting on back field objective and a Scouts squad on another objective alive at the end game, Which I believe at least would offer me a chance to pull up a draw.

It was an excited game really, I would say the final result is actually luck dominate.

And it is only now that I see you thread :(
I did not realize you actually killed everything besides the 2 WK, that's really bad luck.

Did your captain's retinue attacked the WK with krak grenades (not sure but I think krak are ap3)?.
Speaking of which. I noticed that that retinue was actually missing a powerfist. Things would have been maybe different with one more Ap2 close combat weapon in your captain's unit, and not just in the game against eldar I think.

XC18 wrote:
And it is only now that I see you thread :(
I did not realize you actually killed everything besides the 2 WK, that's really bad luck.

Did your captain's retinue attacked the WK with krak grenades (not sure but I think krak are ap3)?.
Speaking of which. I noticed that that retinue was actually missing a powerfist. Things would have been maybe different with one more Ap2 close combat weapon in your captain's unit, and not just in the game against eldar I think.

Haha, it is ok.
The two WKs had been under the blessing of invisibility. They were effectively unkillable at that moment. So I decide to wipe out the "defenseless" jetbikes and attached farseers first.

Everything excepted the TH and power maul / axe had to attack the WK with krak grenade, unfortunately it is only AP4. But well you inspired me one thing. I should cast misfortune on the WK tied up by the Captain on turn 2 3 or turn 4 instead the one fighting Tigirius. Given that the Captain's retinue has two attacks each, they may have higher chances to rolled that six which might stripe off the last wound.

I was tied in points to put up this "alpha deathstar" in 1850pts, while have to keep fighting hordes in mind as well, so I had to cut down to only one grav gun in that squad, instead of usual four. But well, I might want to try and see if one or more powerfist and some more stormshield in the unit is good or not in the future. See if they become something semi TWC

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Fruzzle wrote:
Was it the FA Cup? I think we had lunch together! How did you end up doing?

Haha, yes. I was not knowing that you had traveled that far to here. Hope you enjoyed the journey in Hong Kong.

In the 3rd game of the tournament, I met a Eldar player who brought two CADs so he has two D-sword Wraith Knights , 2 Farseer skyrunners, 5 units of 3 Scatbikes, 3 Hornets and 3 Crimson Hunters. Against my Skyhammer, Libby Conclave, Captain Smashbane and his command squad, 2 Scouts and 1 LSS, 5 men Sternguards in Droppod, and one TFC.

Psychic power wise, the Libby Conclave got Terrify, Shrouding, Invisibility; Perfect Timing, Misfortune; Life Leech, Warp Speed. Farseers all rolled on Telepathy, got 2 Invisibility, 1 terrify, two shrouding, 1 dominate.

However, with the WKs multi-charged the Captain squad and two Devastator squads, and his reserves coming in, seems trouble started to come to Marine side but I still kept one point in lead in secondary objective until turn four. Moreover the Captain and his retinues tied up the D-sword WK for 3 full turns, and managed to knocked the WK down to his last wound way above my expectation.


It was an excited game really, I would say the final result is actually luck dominate.

Well don't trust my flag, I'm in the mainland. How did he multi charge with the wraith knights?
Sounds like you could have had him to be honest! sucks to see all those s I know, Also lost Vulcan to a heavy wraith cannon that way