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Lexicanum wrote:His fate seemed sealed when seven well equipped armies surrounded Angron and his starving forces. Just as the battle was about to begin, the Emperor of Mankind's Fleet arrived in orbit over the planet. The Emperor teleported directly to Angron's point of deployment with a few trusted Adeptus Custodes. The Emperor promised Angron a legion made in his image, limitless power, and life-times spent perfecting the Art of Conquest. But, to his surprise, Angron refused. He chose instead to die amongst his comrades while fighting his oppressors. Reluctantly, the Emperor returned to his flagship above. Yet just as the battle was about to begin, the Emperor teleported Angron against his will back up to the fleet. He could only watch in anguish as those he regarded as his brothers and comrades were quickly annihilated.

My question to you is simple: Why? Why teleport Angron up and leave his friends to die? The obvious solution would have been to acknowledge Angron's refusal, but nonetheless assist them in the fight, helping them overcome their enemy and leaving Angron victorious (by orbital bombardment if need be). As a worst-case scenario, Angron wouldn't be grateful (he'd consider it dishonorable or whatever) and would have chosen to stay, which is still better than having him utterly hating you and inevitably betraying you. And in a best-case scenario, he would have been grateful and agreed to come with you.

Why not give it a shot?

This also was always a confusing point for me. Mostly because Big E can be a huge donkey cave and can be the epitome of my way or the highway sometimes. Also grimderp. I don't see any logical reason for it, it's not like the Emperor couldn't spend a few lives and missiles to let a primarch be more loyal. He is the ruler of the Imperium, after all.

I think the Emperor wasn't used to not having consent from his sons, in the few cases where he did run into resistance he was able to make them submit to his command by defeating them in some sort of challenge. It's also important to note that Angron was the only Primarch that I know of that didn't actually conquer or rule the planet he landed on, so unlike these other Primarchs he didn't have any kind of authority in terms of having control over the forces of the planet that would submit to the Emperor if he did as well, which also means he lacks the aspect of rule that the other Primarchs had that the Emperor might have respected. In fact, its very possible that the Emperor may have had some measure of talks with the local people and made a previous deal of compliance by agreeing to the deaths of the gladiators (bar Angron). So mixed in with Angron's lack of a similar challenge/condition that was given by the other resistant Primarchs of the Emperor, the Emperor probably was too lazy and figured there was no difference either way.

The common theory is that Angron's gladiator brothers were already corrupted by chaos, or in the process of being corrupted.

Because the GW writers didn't really consider how effortlessly the Emperor could have made an example of one of those armies to force the planet into compliance, and then left behind members of the Administratum to "fix" the planet.

However, in the end? None of that would have mattered. In either case, it would have been a victory for the Emperor, but never for Angron, and that would have rankled in him, as it does in the "canon" story, so we still end up with Angron, Daemon Primarch.

There was no saving that guy.

I believe the most recent version of the story has his allies being influence by chaos and the Emperor making a deal with planets government that they would come into the fold and join the new galactic order peacefully.

certain primarchs in my opinion were doomed even without the heresy happening. Angron, Curze, Perturbo and likely Magnus were always destined for trouble.

It's my personal belief that the Emperor engineered the Heresy himself, so that he could ascend to godhood. If you look at many of his seemingly idiotic actions through this lens, you can see that they were actually carefully planned to alienate certain Primarchs (such as Lorgar or Angron) while keeping others still loyal. If you think about it, it would make perfect sense for the Emperor to have made some kind of pact with the Chaos Gods for him to ascend to godhood, while providing them with some new toys (Primarchs and Chaos Marines) and feeding them constant energy for a potentially infinite period of time (the current state of the Galaxy is actually perfect for the Chaos Gods, as they are being constantly fed emotions and worshipers that perfectly suit their current incarnations).

 dusara217 wrote:
It's my personal belief that the Emperor engineered the Heresy himself, so that he could ascend to godhood. If you look at many of his seemingly idiotic actions through this lens, you can see that they were actually carefully planned to alienate certain Primarchs (such as Lorgar or Angron) while keeping others still loyal. If you think about it, it would make perfect sense for the Emperor to have made some kind of pact with the Chaos Gods for him to ascend to godhood, while providing them with some new toys (Primarchs and Chaos Marines) and feeding them constant energy for a potentially infinite period of time (the current state of the Galaxy is actually perfect for the Chaos Gods, as they are being constantly fed emotions and worshipers that perfectly suit their current incarnations).

I agree to a point. I also believe the Emperor planned the Heresy, but that he miscalculated the number of primarchs that would turn against him. The expected would seem to be Angron, Mortarion, Curze, Perturabo, and possibly the Khan or the Lion. Five against 13 would've been ended relatively quickly but still changed the Imperium forever. However, the additional primarchs that turned, turned due to outside influences and factors beyond the Emperor's direct intervention.

that makes sense why the chaos gods focused on Horus. No one else could have focused that betray like he did.

Ashiraya wrote:

Lexicanum wrote:His fate seemed sealed when seven well equipped armies surrounded Angron and his starving forces. Just as the battle was about to begin, the Emperor of Mankind's Fleet arrived in orbit over the planet. The Emperor teleported directly to Angron's point of deployment with a few trusted Adeptus Custodes. The Emperor promised Angron a legion made in his image, limitless power, and life-times spent perfecting the Art of Conquest. But, to his surprise, Angron refused. He chose instead to die amongst his comrades while fighting his oppressors. Reluctantly, the Emperor returned to his flagship above. Yet just as the battle was about to begin, the Emperor teleported Angron against his will back up to the fleet. He could only watch in anguish as those he regarded as his brothers and comrades were quickly annihilated.

My question to you is simple: Why? Why teleport Angron up and leave his friends to die? The obvious solution would have been to acknowledge Angron's refusal, but nonetheless assist them in the fight, helping them overcome their enemy and leaving Angron victorious (by orbital bombardment if need be). As a worst-case scenario, Angron wouldn't be grateful (he'd consider it dishonorable or whatever) and would have chosen to stay, which is still better than having him utterly hating you and inevitably betraying you. And in a best-case scenario, he would have been grateful and agreed to come with you.

Why not give it a shot?

Grimskul wrote:I think the Emperor wasn't used to not having consent from his sons, in the few cases where he did run into resistance he was able to make them submit to his command by defeating them in some sort of challenge. It's also important to note that Angron was the only Primarch that I know of that didn't actually conquer or rule the planet he landed on, so unlike these other Primarchs he didn't have any kind of authority in terms of having control over the forces of the planet that would submit to the Emperor if he did as well, which also means he lacks the aspect of rule that the other Primarchs had that the Emperor might have respected. In fact, its very possible that the Emperor may have had some measure of talks with the local people and made a previous deal of compliance by agreeing to the deaths of the gladiators (bar Angron). So mixed in with Angron's lack of a similar challenge/condition that was given by the other resistant Primarchs of the Emperor, the Emperor probably was too lazy and figured there was no difference either way.

This is basically it. Angron defied him so he had to be made an example of. He wouldn't kill him as he still needed him to lead his troops but still had to punish him. Also I'm pretty sure Mortarion also counts. He conquered almost everything but failed right at the end.

It's actually easier than that.


The ruling population had agreed to be accepted into the Imperium, no bloodshed required. Angron was a terrorist who had to be removed. If the Big E had helped them, they would then have to reconquer the world, which is time and manpower.

Exactly so. He wanted Angron, but didn't want to have to deal with a huge army of unwashed rebellious slaves who would have no idea how to run a compliant world and would refuse to bend their knees to him on general principle. So he just took what he wanted and left.

The thing was, unlike, say, Russ, or Vulkan, Angron was NEVER going to come willingly. Even if the War Hounds had been deployed and saved the Eaters Of Cities, Angron would probably still have insisted on staying there with his brothers and refused to obey the Emperor.

The Emperor wouldn't accept a competing loyalty, so took the logical course of letting the slaves be wiped out.

Grimderp. Just that.

If the question is " why didn't a father rescue his son" then you guys need to learn about parenting (albeit Crazy messed up space parenting)

As for the question -why didn't the emperor choose to fight alongside Angon? This is answered in the Heresy novels. Angron is so hyped up that when the emperor appears he kills a custodes. This makes the emperor so mad that he just teleports him away.

My personal theory is that the Emperor had the foresight to know that if he had let Angron fight in the final battle on Nuceria he would have ascended to a Daemon Prince there and then. The Dark Eldar in Butchers Nails seems to know that Angron will become the Blood Gods son, so did the Emperor possibly.

So rather than fight alongside Angron, where the blood and rage would fuel his ascension, he would have no choice but to either convince him to abandon his allies or abduct him. After Angron declines and slays the Custodian(s, might have been a couple) he's left with the latter option.

It had always been Angron's fate to become the Blood Gods son and it had always been destined on Nuceria. If Lorgar hadn't convinced Angron to go back there, Angron might have eventually died because of the Nails.

But the other explanation where Nuceria had agreed to be part of the Imperium and Angron was a menace is the truth of it I think.

 Ashiraya wrote:
My question to you is simple: Why? Why teleport Angron up and leave his friends to die? The obvious solution would have been to acknowledge Angron's refusal, but nonetheless assist them in the fight, helping them overcome their enemy and leaving Angron victorious (by orbital bombardment if need be). As a worst-case scenario, Angron wouldn't be grateful (he'd consider it dishonorable or whatever) and would have chosen to stay, which is still better than having him utterly hating you and inevitably betraying you. And in a best-case scenario, he would have been grateful and agreed to come with you.

Why not give it a shot?

People forget that Angron himself was permanently and deeply damaged by the Nails. His army had no place in the Imperium. They were raving lunatics. If anything, the Emperor's desire would be to keep the government of the planet intact rather than see a stable human world devolve into anarchy after a civil war.

The obvious solution would have been to put Angron down like the II and XI. But then he couldn't become Angryon, Daemon Prince of the God of Being Really Angry later on in the story. But it certainly wouldn't have made sense at the time to help Angron's little rebellion destroy the planetary government of a human-settled world. And then have to do something with the rag tag band of homicidal maniacs Angron would certainly have wanted to take along with him.

Captyn_Bob wrote:If the question is " why didn't a father rescue his son" then you guys need to learn about parenting (albeit Crazy messed up space parenting)

As for the question -why didn't the emperor choose to fight alongside Angon? This is answered in the Heresy novels. Angron is so hyped up that when the emperor appears he kills a custodes. This makes the emperor so mad that he just teleports him away.

This makes more sense then literally every other theory on this thread.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
My question to you is simple: Why? Why teleport Angron up and leave his friends to die? The obvious solution would have been to acknowledge Angron's refusal, but nonetheless assist them in the fight, helping them overcome their enemy and leaving Angron victorious (by orbital bombardment if need be). As a worst-case scenario, Angron wouldn't be grateful (he'd consider it dishonorable or whatever) and would have chosen to stay, which is still better than having him utterly hating you and inevitably betraying you. And in a best-case scenario, he would have been grateful and agreed to come with you.

Why not give it a shot?

People forget that Angron himself was permanently and deeply damaged by the Nails. His army had no place in the Imperium. They were raving lunatics. If anything, the Emperor's desire would be to keep the government of the planet intact rather than see a stable human world devolve into anarchy after a civil war.

The obvious solution would have been to put Angron down like the II and XI. But then he couldn't become Angryon, Daemon Prince of the God of Being Really Angry later on in the story. But it certainly wouldn't have made sense at the time to help Angron's little rebellion destroy the planetary government of a human-settled world. And then have to do something with the rag tag band of homicidal maniacs Angron would certainly have wanted to take along with him.

So instead you get a massive legion of homicidal maniacs led by one who hates you. That hardly seems more reasonable. And Angron certainly did more damage than a single world.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dusara217 wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:If the question is " why didn't a father rescue his son" then you guys need to learn about parenting (albeit Crazy messed up space parenting)

As for the question -why didn't the emperor choose to fight alongside Angon? This is answered in the Heresy novels. Angron is so hyped up that when the emperor appears he kills a custodes. This makes the emperor so mad that he just teleports him away.

This makes more sense then literally every other theory on this thread.

It does. I guess it answers my question.

Angron's forces were rebels against their place in society (albeit a gakky one, unfair as it may be), and when you are trying to conquer the galaxy, you don't need a group of people who will rebel against you when things don't go their way, especially as the favour of the Primarch Angron would make just crushing them incredibly difficult. Plus, they were all grown men and women. Having Angron feel more kinship towards them than his Legion would be detrimental to the war effort

The Emp was not and Isnt any of their fathers.
The primarchs are tools, nothing more.
Kiss and hug me father.
Angron was a universal loser. Not his fault, But then if empy cuts a deal with the people that did that to him/ used to use him as entertainment, Id be pissed too. Though I think the DE did it now.
The morale of the story is that the Emp will sell any and every one out to further his aims.

Because Angron wasn't supposed to be a Loyalist, basically. If he was, he'd have helped out, and the gladiators would become the new Marines.

 The Wise Dane wrote:
Because Angron wasn't supposed to be a Loyalist, basically. If he was, he'd have helped out, and the gladiators would become the new Marines.

He wouldn't have helped, Except getting tea in the arvo. Hes more than likely the guy that says yeah/no. Stick up your clacker, feth you. Youve fethed me over. Im on the other team. I like being that guy. And really BA turn the wolves into lunch.
Yeah his back ground doesnt really make sense these days, but hey, he could be worse (BA).

Whats wrong with BA?

I always though it was because he would never of excepted theor help. And his people where to far gone to be of use and he would cling to his past rather then the emperors chosen future. By cutting his links to the past help him embrace q future. As long as his tribe lived so to did his past.

Angron is the only traitor primarch who had a legitimate reason to hate the emperor.

He is also the only primarch loyalist or traitor who never drank the emperor's Kool aid and saw him as the tyrant that he was.

godking wrote:
Angron is the only traitor primarch who had a legitimate reason to hate the emperor.

He is also the only primarch loyalist or traitor who never drank the emperor's Kool aid and saw him as the tyrant that he was.

Mortarian says "Hi". The whole reason he rebeled is because the Emperor replaced the Tyrant on his home world with himself.

 welshhoppo wrote:

godking wrote:
Angron is the only traitor primarch who had a legitimate reason to hate the emperor.

He is also the only primarch loyalist or traitor who never drank the emperor's Kool aid and saw him as the tyrant that he was.

Mortarian says "Hi". The whole reason he rebeled is because the Emperor replaced the Tyrant on his home world with himself.

feth Mortarion.

He is the dumbest of the traitor primarchs.

He rebelled because he did'nt like the use of psyker's and could'nt accept the fact that he lost the challenge the emperor gave him.

Angron was never given a choice he was teleported away from his army.

godking wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:

godking wrote:
Angron is the only traitor primarch who had a legitimate reason to hate the emperor.

He is also the only primarch loyalist or traitor who never drank the emperor's Kool aid and saw him as the tyrant that he was.

Mortarian says "Hi". The whole reason he rebeled is because the Emperor replaced the Tyrant on his home world with himself.

feth Mortarion.

He is the dumbest of the traitor primarchs.

He rebelled because he did'nt like the use of psyker's and could'nt accept the fact that he lost the challenge the emperor gave him.

Angron was never given a choice he was teleported away from his army.

Mortarion always made me wonder... Why was it exactly he cared either way? Nothing made sense about what he did - There's no reason for him to support the Imperium, or fight it.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
My question to you is simple: Why? Why teleport Angron up and leave his friends to die? The obvious solution would have been to acknowledge Angron's refusal, but nonetheless assist them in the fight, helping them overcome their enemy and leaving Angron victorious (by orbital bombardment if need be). As a worst-case scenario, Angron wouldn't be grateful (he'd consider it dishonorable or whatever) and would have chosen to stay, which is still better than having him utterly hating you and inevitably betraying you. And in a best-case scenario, he would have been grateful and agreed to come with you.

Why not give it a shot?

People forget that Angron himself was permanently and deeply damaged by the Nails. His army had no place in the Imperium. They were raving lunatics. If anything, the Emperor's desire would be to keep the government of the planet intact rather than see a stable human world devolve into anarchy after a civil war.

The obvious solution would have been to put Angron down like the II and XI. But then he couldn't become Angryon, Daemon Prince of the God of Being Really Angry later on in the story. But it certainly wouldn't have made sense at the time to help Angron's little rebellion destroy the planetary government of a human-settled world. And then have to do something with the rag tag band of homicidal maniacs Angron would certainly have wanted to take along with him.

So instead you get a massive legion of homicidal maniacs led by one who hates you. That hardly seems more reasonable. And Angron certainly did more damage than a single world.

Hindsight is 20/20.

 The Wise Dane wrote:

godking wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:

godking wrote:
Angron is the only traitor primarch who had a legitimate reason to hate the emperor.

He is also the only primarch loyalist or traitor who never drank the emperor's Kool aid and saw him as the tyrant that he was.

Mortarian says "Hi". The whole reason he rebeled is because the Emperor replaced the Tyrant on his home world with himself.

feth Mortarion.

He is the dumbest of the traitor primarchs.

He rebelled because he did'nt like the use of psyker's and could'nt accept the fact that he lost the challenge the emperor gave him.

Angron was never given a choice he was teleported away from his army.

Mortarion always made me wonder... Why was it exactly he cared either way? Nothing made sense about what he did - There's no reason for him to support the Imperium, or fight it.

I think that was perhaps the point - I am not sure he saw any reason to do anything? He was as damaged as the other Primarchs in his own depressive, self hating, obsessive way - maybe Nurgle promised to give him a sense of humour / perspective