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It disappoints me I can not make my librarian an HQ in the new formations. I know I can cad (which I probably will) or take the Libby formation. Is this a fluff reason they got left out of the Demi-formations? I don't know the lore real well but to me they make as much sense as a Chaplin. I want to run a Demi but won't because I want a psyker as my HQ choice

Generally speaking, librarians are a chapter assest that is distributed wherever they are required, usually attached to a battle group on an as needs basis, often with an honour guard or command squad, usually serving as a sort of advisor to the group commander.

Captains obviously lead thir company or part-therof.

Chaplains are a bit of a funny one, in that while they're treated more like a librarian, it's not unheard of for them to grab a bunch of marines and go break heads for the Emperor.

Fairly sure that there's a bit of an overview somewhere in the codex where it goes over how a companies assets are layed out.

The more cynical among us may also think that since librarians sell easily since their rules are good, there had better be some incentive for a chaplain model to be sold.

I think it has something to do with the fact that all psykers are, inherently, ticking timebombs and not many are willing to risk having a leader that can be a liability.
Furthermore, Librarians are often described as aloof and set apart from their brothers, I reckon they don't make for innate leaders as Captains do.

Librarians in fluff are the astropaths and diviners of the chapter, sending and receiving communications as well as helping map out the direction of the chapter. They tend not to fight battles, unless their presence is necessary for the outcome. Librarians that are true battle Psykers tend to be used as weapons that require caustion when using. As such, Librarian are never in a command role, yet their words tend to have the weight of a high ranking commander.

SJ

I think it depends on the chapter, Blood ravens for example had a chapter master who was also a pysker. I think it would depend on how common Librarians are in the chapter. What is the run of the mill chapters librarian count?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Librarians in fluff are the astropaths and diviners of the chapter, sending and receiving communications as well as helping map out the direction of the chapter. They tend not to fight battles, unless their presence is necessary for the outcome. Librarians that are true battle Psykers tend to be used as weapons that require caustion when using. As such, Librarian are never in a command role, yet their words tend to have the weight of a high ranking commander.

SJ

Since when are Librarians Astropaths? Astartes have always needed regular Astropaths for long range communication, which are something of a unique brand among psykers.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I think it depends on the chapter, Blood ravens for example had a chapter master who was also a pysker.

And we all know how well that worked out.

It's not like anyone is ever going to countermand Ezkiel or Mephiston and for good reason.

Off the top of my head, I can think of a couple of chapters whose Librarians often hold command positions.

As already mentioned, the blood ravens have a psyker heavy leadership structure. The Iron Hands, surprisingly enough, have started to induct more librarians into the ranks of the Iron Fathers, from whom the clan captains are usually drawn. The mantis warriors, red scorpions, and exorcists all have habits of using/allowing psykers to be battle leaders/commanders if I remember right. So, if it really ruffles your jimmies that you cannot take one, assuming it isn't a tourney, just ask the other guy if they're fine with you taking a librarian instead of a captain/chaplain. It's not THAT big a change.

Grimlineman wrote:
It disappoints me I can not make my librarian an HQ in the new formations. I know I can cad (which I probably will) or take the Libby formation. Is this a fluff reason they got left out of the Demi-formations? I don't know the lore real well but to me they make as much sense as a Chaplin. I want to run a Demi but won't because I want a psyker as my HQ choice

to put things plainly, theres hasnt been a magically adept captain since the days of the legions and then it was only the thousand sons, and look where that got them. furthermore veteran sargeants have led more military actions then librarians have on record. thats how often you see a librarian leading marines around. its practically rare as rocking horse shoes, borderlining on virtually unheard of in certain legions and their sucessors.

and yet on table its pretty much everyone taking a librarian as an HQ, which i find hilariously anti-fluff and is usually a telltale sign for me of someone trying to make a competitive list and pretending its a fluffy list to avoid getting called a seal clubber

I'm usually a fluffy player but of the four generic choices, the Librarian (at least in a CAD) is such a runaway choice I don't blame people. Assault this addition for the average unit is bleh, especially on foot, so the chaplain without spending more is crappy. Unless your going full smash fether, the captain is also meh. that leaves the two support options. Of the two the Librarian wins every time.

 ionusx wrote:

to put things plainly, theres hasnt been a magically adept captain since the days of the legions and then it was only the thousand sons, and look where that got them. furthermore veteran sargeants have led more military actions then librarians have on record. thats how often you see a librarian leading marines around. its practically rare as rocking horse shoes, borderlining on virtually unheard of in certain legions and their sucessors.

and yet on table its pretty much everyone taking a librarian as an HQ, which i find hilariously anti-fluff and is usually a telltale sign for me of someone trying to make a competitive list and pretending its a fluffy list to avoid getting called a seal clubber

Blood Ravens, Mantis Warriors, Soul Drinkers had a librarian chapter master. I doubt Mepheston and the Dark Angels Top librarian "never" lead. Additionally, with 1000 chapters, not all of which being codex, there are probably MULTIPLE chapters with librarians who act as captains, and looking at the 4 examples above, who knows how many chapter master librarians. I mean, since we have a fluff confirmed chapter master dreadnought, what makes librarians so odd to imagine?

And of course veteran sergeants have lead more battles, they've probably headed more battles than most captains looking at how many battles marines have to deal with, and chapters only having 10 captains

Take your "hilariously anti-fluff" and "telltale sign of someone being competitive" and shush.

In the fourth edition codex they said that each company has a Chaplain and Librarian attached, but it's the Captain/Force Commander that takes the active role. In some situations the Chaplain is allowed to lead since he's already a spiritual leader in the field. Librarians, however, have to concentrate fully on keeping their psychic powers in check, so can't be bothered with field tactics and whatnot.

 asorel wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Librarians in fluff are the astropaths and diviners of the chapter, sending and receiving communications as well as helping map out the direction of the chapter. They tend not to fight battles, unless their presence is necessary for the outcome. Librarians that are true battle Psykers tend to be used as weapons that require caustion when using. As such, Librarian are never in a command role, yet their words tend to have the weight of a high ranking commander.

SJ

Since when are Librarians Astropaths? Astartes have always needed regular Astropaths for long range communication, which are something of a unique brand among psykers.

Since the Librarian was first introduced in 1st Ed.

SJ

The Silver Skulls revere their Prognosticators (librarian ). They do not command the companies directly but do often direct the direction of operations.

Their can be tension when the Prognosticators want to take the chapter in a direction the Conmanders don't see as valuable. But as of right now the Prognosticators are continuing to win.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 asorel wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Librarians in fluff are the astropaths and diviners of the chapter, sending and receiving communications as well as helping map out the direction of the chapter. They tend not to fight battles, unless their presence is necessary for the outcome. Librarians that are true battle Psykers tend to be used as weapons that require caustion when using. As such, Librarian are never in a command role, yet their words tend to have the weight of a high ranking commander.

SJ

Since when are Librarians Astropaths? Astartes have always needed regular Astropaths for long range communication, which are something of a unique brand among psykers.

Since the Librarian was first introduced in 1st Ed.

SJ

Keep in mind that 1st ed also had a half-Eldar Ultramarine, a lot has changed since then. Astropaths need to be exposed to the Emperor's Light in order to function, and the process almost invariably blinds them. Higher power telepaths can emulate the effect locally, but anything greater than surface-to-orbit requires a fully fledged astropath.

Even were this not the case, it's a question of resource allocation. Librarians are rare; you need to find someone who's hardy enough to be an Astartes, and a psyker, and powerful enough to be effective on the battlefield. It would be a waste to use such a specimen as a space phone, especially when you have only a dozen of them, and there are plenty of normal humans available that can perform the same task.

It should be a command formation. A Librarian and 0-1 command squad or honor guard.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 asorel wrote:


Since when are Librarians Astropaths? Astartes have always needed regular Astropaths for long range communication, which are something of a unique brand among psykers.

Since the Librarian was first introduced in 1st Ed.

SJ

Yes and no. 1st edition did (quite logically) place both a chapters assigned Astropaths *and* it's psychic marines within the Librarius organisation, but it also explicitly stated they were not the same thing.

As for company organisation, GW's chapter organisational charts have been rather iffy as hell since 4th edition (wherein they copy-pasted Land Raider in place of Land Speeder AND decided to combine the 6th & 7th company into a single column even though they have different equipment) including sometimes putting Chaplains in a separate box, but prior to that Chaplains were always a mandatory part of company organisation: the whole point of Chaplains is to provide spiritual guidance to the brethren, and all brethren require spiritual guidance wherever they may be. Librarians on the other hand are witches best kept in a glass box away from the rank and file except when needed.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Librarians in fluff are the astropaths and diviners of the chapter, sending and receiving communications as well as helping map out the direction of the chapter. They tend not to fight battles, unless their presence is necessary for the outcome. Librarians that are true battle Psykers tend to be used as weapons that require caustion when using. As such, Librarian are never in a command role, yet their words tend to have the weight of a high ranking commander.

SJ

I marked the part people didn't read.

SJ

I think the safest solution is to stop getting upset about not being able to have Librarians as your HQ and do the sensible thing


Go Chaos and go Thousand Sons - because they're everything you could ever want and Tzeentch is a generous being.

Yea, not gonna trade my marine army for the unplayable gak that is the chaos codex.

Oh we're talking about the game here.


On a more serious note - toying with the idea of using the Grey Knights rules and proxying with marines doesn't seem like a bad way to go for both a Chaos / Loyalist themed force with psyker HQs.

In fluff terms, psykers are generally distrusted and so are shunned by the majority of the chapter. They are watched with suspicion as, has been said earlier, they are viewed as tainted / time bombs.

 Wulfmar wrote:

In fluff terms, psykers are generally distrusted and so are shunned by the majority of the chapter. They are watched with suspicion as, has been said earlier, they are viewed as tainted / time bombs.

With good reason, they often are the ones falling to chaos and wrecking everyone's day. Would they want that guy to be in charge of part their army too?

Librarians I think, are more used as consultants when encountering the mysterious.

Would you trust one so highly linked to warp any by extension corruption a position of control and leadership over 100 of man kinds deadliest warriors?

depends on the chapter.

Tigurius
http://gph.is/1gYR2dp

Tigurius is the exception, not the rule. He is still susceptible to Perils, so is not as reliable as a Captain. Besides, he doesn't belong to any particular company, so the point is irrelevant.

 jhe90 wrote:
Would you trust one so highly linked to warp any by extension corruption a position of control and leadership over 100 of man kinds deadliest warriors?

Of course I would...


If only everyone had listened to Magnus in the first place none of this Heresy nonsense would have happened



hur hur

 Brennonjw wrote:

 ionusx wrote:

to put things plainly, theres hasnt been a magically adept captain since the days of the legions and then it was only the thousand sons, and look where that got them. furthermore veteran sargeants have led more military actions then librarians have on record. thats how often you see a librarian leading marines around. its practically rare as rocking horse shoes, borderlining on virtually unheard of in certain legions and their sucessors.

and yet on table its pretty much everyone taking a librarian as an HQ, which i find hilariously anti-fluff and is usually a telltale sign for me of someone trying to make a competitive list and pretending its a fluffy list to avoid getting called a seal clubber

Blood Ravens, Mantis Warriors, Soul Drinkers had a librarian chapter master. I doubt Mepheston and the Dark Angels Top librarian "never" lead. Additionally, with 1000 chapters, not all of which being codex, there are probably MULTIPLE chapters with librarians who act as captains, and looking at the 4 examples above, who knows how many chapter master librarians. I mean, since we have a fluff confirmed chapter master dreadnought, what makes librarians so odd to imagine?

And of course veteran sergeants have lead more battles, they've probably headed more battles than most captains looking at how many battles marines have to deal with, and chapters only having 10 captains

Take your "hilariously anti-fluff" and "telltale sign of someone being competitive" and shush.

Blood Ravens fell to Chaos, killed one another, and were left with, like, ten guys, only one of which was some podunk Librarian. Soul-Drinkers fell to Chaos, killed one another, tried to go renegade, and then all died. The Mantis Warriors went renegade, almost all died, got sent on a one hundred year Penitent Crusade, their Chapter Master was stripped of all honors and title and imprisoned for all eternity. They also lost their homeworld to the Space Sharks, and are currently on the verge of extinction. Mephiston is the Chief Librarian of the Blood Angels. While he may occasionally lead a squad action, it's not actually part of the duties of his office.

Not a great record for Librarian HQs, really.

Because nobody remotely sane ever said "let's promote the guy who could turn into a drooling omnicidal daemon should his mental defenses fail to defend his mind".