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Yesterday was the Trials of Oighear event, a campaign covering Ice Mages in the Realm of Metal getting together every thousand years to prove who is best and will be their leader. The conceit here is that they can change shape at will and hire in mercenaries to do their fighting – so, for the event, you could bring any army of up to 30 models, plus one Ice Mage whose Warscroll was provided.

They are quite pokey for wizards, and have a Shield of Ice ability that gives them and one other unit +2 saves. They do not have access to arcane bolt or mystic shield, but have their own suite of spells. Frosty Blast is a pumped up arcane bolt that also slows the target unit, Lake of Ice shifts units in a random direction, and Ride the Storm effectively teleports the Ice Mage up to 20″.

The only restrictions to your army is 30 models, only one of which can be a Monster and none can be Wizards. The Ice Mage is in addition to this.

I ended up taking two units of 9 Chaos Warriors, 1 unit of 9 Chaos Knights, and a Lord on Manticore – all Tzeentch worshippers (hence the units of 9). The Ice Mage went on top of this, for which I used the Tzeentch Sorcerer Lord I had painted up earlier because… he was kinda bluey in colour…

Full report, with piccies, here: https://ttgamingdiary.wordpress.com/2015/12/20/event-report-trials-of-the-oighear/

Dwarf boy sounds like a total prick.

How many turned up at the event?

I'm giving thought to the Feb event given I'm also slowly making up lizards. If I get a marker down now with the wife I may sneak a 2 day pass. Though doubles, mm, that makes it more awkward.

Wish they did more 1 day stuff. About 1:45 away from me I think, 2 days requires too much organizing and is to much extra money.

Wow, I think I would have told the dwarf player to tone down his force... At least bring it to 30 models... And change the dragon slayers to regular slayers...

Hope you had fun though mate!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You've almost got to see the funny side with 20 dragon slayers haha

puree wrote:
How many turned up at the event?

Seconded.
It would be interesting to get a estimation at least, if you don't know the exact number.

About a dozen at this one.

How was he allowed 38 models in a 30 model restriction? Are you counting the organ guns as 3 models and he counted them as 1?

Also, was the rest of it against any rules? I get that maybe he should have toned it down a bit, but to be honest I've no idea how badly skewed the balance was - does anyone know the rough points equivalents in 8th?

Were there any horde (Orcs / Skaven) players?

Why should he not take 20 separate heroes if the event rules allowed it? Assuming that the 38 models were legal under the rules (don't know if it's something to do with the war engines?) then why not take the best that you can? Would you change your mind if they were playing a horde army and had more models?

I find limiting model count to be really restrictive to armies like Skaven, Orcs and Empire. I usually run a State Troop Detachment which at a bare minimum has 36 models

 Daedleh wrote:
Why should he not take 20 separate heroes if the event rules allowed it? Assuming that the 38 models were legal under the rules (don't know if it's something to do with the war engines?) then why not take the best that you can? Would you change your mind if they were playing a horde army and had more models?

The only problems that I have with it are
a) He was probably using Troll Slayer models. Troll Slayers are Troll Slayers, not Dragon Slayers! They don't have nearly enough menace or bling to properly represent the trials a Dragon Slayer have been through... But then, that's the same level as using Red Marine rules with your Green Marines, I guess, and many won't agree with it.
b) The event clearly stated a 30 model limit. If you break that limit, you should be disqualified. If they were playing a horde army and they brought more than 30 models, they are breaking the rules of the event. I don't see how it can be justified. It'd be like if I was showing up for a 2400pt game of WHFB 8th edition vs Skaven and decided to bring an extra 1000pts of models so I'd have the same size blocks as him. You just don't agree to a limit and then completely break the limit. Also, not sure how the 38 models could be legal under the rules...
c) 20 Dragon Slayers is definitely NOT "the best", so he wasn't even doing that. It's a misguided attempt at power gaming. Dude should have brought 20 Ungrim Ironfists at the very least, but even then...

See, dwarfy and what he did is why I began writing this game off day one. You can't trust people not to be dicks and you can't choose your opponents at events.

I'd also agree limiting by model really gimps horde armies, I'm curious if of the dozen or so players there were any with skaven/goblins/skinks/empire state troops/zombies etc.

Rihgu wrote:

The only problems that I have with it are
a) He was probably using Troll Slayer models. Troll Slayers are Troll Slayers, not Dragon Slayers! They don't have nearly enough menace or bling to properly represent the trials a Dragon Slayer have been through... But then, that's the same level as using Red Marine rules with your Green Marines, I guess, and many won't agree with it.

Yes! This really bugs me in AoS - I don't know why because I was fine with it in WHFB. The one I most often see is people using Knights of the Realm as Grail Knights. I don't know why it riles me up, I guess because this is no longer a points based game and so there there is no tax on "proxying" your models for a better version. I am a firm stickler for people using the correct warscrolls for the models and not just substituting it for a stronger one. Maybe there are errors in how I am thinking here.

I don't know about dwarf characters, but in defence of the knights as grail knights (something I myself have done) the actual grail knights are finecrap and I think it is perfectly fair to proxy something similar in place of a finecast model as if that finecast model never existed.

Surprised people haven't had problems with monster mash yet. 30 models? Just bring every monster and uber character you have (mix and match from different armies as needed - there is no restriction!) and get an easy prize. Dickish? Yeah, but it is a tournament - that sort of behavior should be expected regardless of how unsportsmanlike it may be. People have and continue to do worse in the name of winning.

I believe it was only 1 monster limit. But one monster and 29 hardcore characters is more or less what it looked like dwarfy boy brought.

 Bottle wrote:

Rihgu wrote:

The only problems that I have with it are
a) He was probably using Troll Slayer models. Troll Slayers are Troll Slayers, not Dragon Slayers! They don't have nearly enough menace or bling to properly represent the trials a Dragon Slayer have been through... But then, that's the same level as using Red Marine rules with your Green Marines, I guess, and many won't agree with it.

Yes! This really bugs me in AoS - I don't know why because I was fine with it in WHFB. The one I most often see is people using Knights of the Realm as Grail Knights. I don't know why it riles me up, I guess because this is no longer a points based game and so there there is no tax on "proxying" your models for a better version. I am a firm stickler for people using the correct warscrolls for the models and not just substituting it for a stronger one. Maybe there are errors in how I am thinking here.

Well, I mean, I can think of a reason or two. Maybe you have the 'worse' models and want to test out the other ones, or don't have the spending money to get them...or maybe you just like the look of the Knights of the Realm and not the Grail Knights, but you want to have Grail Knights in your army.

Dwarf Boy, of course, was doing none of those things; instead, he appears to have decided to demonstrate the REAL reason GW sells whippy sticks in their starter kits. The dodgy length is so you can get a little extra plastic in contact with the target when you swing!

Seems weird that he wasn't called out for having 38 models. Did they not have anyone looking over the games?

Glad you seem to have had fun anyway!

 Bottle wrote:

Yes! This really bugs me in AoS - I don't know why because I was fine with it in WHFB. The one I most often see is people using Knights of the Realm as Grail Knights. I don't know why it riles me up, I guess because this is no longer a points based game and so there there is no tax on "proxying" your models for a better version. I am a firm stickler for people using the correct warscrolls for the models and not just substituting it for a stronger one. Maybe there are errors in how I am thinking here.

As long as you have a better profile for what is, essentially, the same kind of troop (a Dragon Slayer is just a Troll Slayer who managed to kill a dragon, after all ), you will not stop this from happening. This was never because of points, rather a question of real price in money and effectiveness of the said model in game.

Because, let's be honest, a Dragon Slayer is better than a Troll Slayer at what they do. You know, killing stuff.

And since a Troll Slayer is the same as a Dragon Slayer in terms of rules for the event (it's a model, after all), well you have people like this Dwarf player. He has done nothing wrong on that point. On the 38 models army, there is something to say - but not the "20 dragon slayers" . You can just say it's cheesy.

AoS may be another game system, but the players are the same. That's what I always said from the beginning - and having people "suddenly" discovering that having no point based game system doesn't solve the problem from "competive players vs narrative players" at all, is actually the real surprise here.

Yes, probably irrational on my part, a pet hate if you will. Again in WHFB I had no problem with it - you want them Grail Knights or Dragon Slayers then, sure, you pay the points.

In AoS, we're not meant to be building the strongest lists within the points - we're meant to be building a list that is fluffy and balanced with the opponents. And proxying your models for something better than they are does neither of those things.

With regards to the 30 models thing, I guess Dwarf Boy was counting each Organ Gun and Crew as 1 rather than 4.

MongooseMatt wrote:
About a dozen at this one.

Ow. That's pretty dire. The previous events had at least around 30 didn't they?

Although this was not a "real" paid-for event right? Does those events normally draw less people?

Remember, it was also right before Christmas...

I think it's cool that GW are running these free-to-enter events. It's exatly the kind of thing they need to do with their revamped Warhammer World space, and reconnect with customers, etc.

Given the way AoS works, and it was not a tight competition tournament, you have to rely on the sensibilities of the entrants to try and make the match-ups fair. It's not always going to work perfectly.

As regards the suicidal special objectives, GW have a bit of a history of thinking up special rules "because special", and this kind of special often doesn't work out. But as with the force match-ups, I don't think it's fair to expect a very well-thought-out set of scenarios for an informal, free, fun event.

Anyway, apart from the Dwarves, the OP seems to have had a fun day, and it was a good read. Thank you!

Cut the event some slack . We're all used to the idea that everything that GW does should be BIG (I trying to lower my expectations a bit to more reasonable levels myself). From my point of view, these are regular events, like MTG game days and one shouldn't expect a gigantic gathering of players (compared to 6/12 months periodic events). If even 12 people seems a bit small number to you, may I mention that this year's DZC official tournament in GB gathered around 40 players? Besides, it's been mentioned, it's just before Christmas. Everyone's busy tidying out his left out work, working out vacation schedules etc.

 Sarouan wrote:

AoS may be another game system, but the players are the same. That's what I always said from the beginning - and having people "suddenly" discovering that having no point based game system doesn't solve the problem from "competive players vs narrative players" at all, is actually the real surprise here.

Just that.

 CoreCommander wrote:
If even 12 people seems a bit small number to you, may I mention that this year's DZC official tournament in GB gathered around 40 players?

Since DZC is magnitudes smaller in terms of players than what WHFB was before AoS I'd say it's quite worrying for the future of the game. I'm not exactly surprised but I didn't think AoS would crash quite that fast.

I agree that the proximity to christmas possibly did affect numbers. But still; a dozen(!) people at an official event at Warhammer World?

The couple of 1 day campaign (40k doubles) events I went to a few years ago were not exactly that well attended, I can't remember numbers (maybe ~30), I was a bit surprised at how few turned up, as I was expecting more. Maybe these are just generally less well attended? Plus, as noted the weekend before xmas might not be the best day.

If they start doing these with a bit more notice (there was less than 3 weeks I think for this one) then I will try and go to as many as I can.

Dwarf player was a prick, no question IMO. This was never intended to be a competitive event. The relevant part of the event pack

You will be expected to have a quick chat with your opponent before deployment takes place to roughly balance your forces ensuring you both have a fun game.

Then he even had the gall to ask to not have to roll to be defender.

I'm not sure why the OP hadn't asked about the forces. But I would have volunteered a quick description of all my units to reduce the chance of really nasty surprises. I'd not let him play with 38 models and then would not have played until he had done as above and toned down to something near enough. I don't expect some great balance, but some thing that at least on the face of it I feel looks a decent game. If he didn't want to do that then I get to spend an hour and a half looking around warhammer world waiting for game 2. For a day out that I only paid petrol for I'm not going to be overly bothered about skipping a game with TFG.

Maybe next time they will put a 1 monster and 1 hero limit for small games. It does feel odd that they comped monsters but not heroes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yes! This really bugs me in AoS - I don't know why because I was fine with it in WHFB. The one I most often see is people using Knights of the Realm as Grail Knights. I don't know why it riles me up, I guess because this is no longer a points based game and so there there is no tax on "proxying" your models for a better version. I am a firm stickler for people using the correct warscrolls for the models and not just substituting it for a stronger one. Maybe there are errors in how I am thinking here.

I'm largely with you on this one. I was always a bit more relaxed in WFB or KOW. But for AoS I do feel a bit more like I want to see the proper thing. There are going to be time when friends are going to want to try something very similar looking without buying it first and I'd go with that. But for an AOS event I'd expect to be WYSIWYG. It isn't competitive. I see no reason for going with model X and playing them as model Y.

 Zywus wrote:

 CoreCommander wrote:
If even 12 people seems a bit small number to you, may I mention that this year's DZC official tournament in GB gathered around 40 players?

Since DZC is magnitudes smaller in terms of players than what WHFB was before AoS I'd say it's quite worrying for the future of the game. I'm not exactly surprised but I didn't think AoS would crash quite that fast.

I agree that the proximity to christmas possibly did affect numbers. But still; a dozen(!) people at an official event at Warhammer World?

Maybe those of us who haven't got the pleasure of visiting WW monthly events think of them as something grander than they really are... I, myself, have never been to one though so I may be wrong. Maybe, in the past, they used to gather hundreds of people each month.

To be honest, the low number of attendants is certainly more because of the date and time left to make a themed army. Some people were certainly prevented to come because of their families and the feeling they wouldn't be able to bring a whole army painted in Winter/Iced themes.

Even though it wasn't a requirement.

About the Dwarf Player....Well, I do agree he was sounding a bit "borderline" when you read the blog of MongooseMatt. But still...

- The 38 model army is certainly coming from the Organ Gun and its crews. I don't think it's really the numbers that gave him a huge advantage on this game.
- Sure, he had a Destruction miniature in an Order army. Why is it bothering? You can always find a narrative justification - in this case, it's easy, the Giant is a mercenary bought with Ur-gold or Ur-beer. Playing narrative doesn't mean playing "pure" armies without "dirty" allies. It makes me remember the dark time of WFB, when a player who dared to take allies in its army was nearly treated as a traitor to the "spirit of the game" in some clubs (yeah, mine was like that).
- Indeed, he had "no basic troop" in his army. Why should it have? Playing narrative means elite armies can't exist? He just decided to bring "an army of heroes". Could be a perfectly good reason; a gathering of some of the most powerful Slayers with a Giant mercenary being hired by a rich engineer and his war machines to defend his workplace against the waves of Chaos. After all, the followers of the Dark God are a great opponent to fight, and the most powerful Slayers would be eager to test their strength against these emblematic foes.
- About the models...I understand Dragon Slayers ones are different from Troll Slayers ones, but to be frank, it's hard to tell the difference of status amongst slayers because they don't care about appearances or trophies. Sure, their axes may vary...still, if people used a Troll Slayer model and just changed a bit their weapons, I don't see why I would keep him from playing it as a Dragon Slayer. Just say in his background that he killed a dragon and that's good.

From what I have read, it's obvious it was a one-sided game. Well, that happens when people with different points of view can only refer to the written rules of the game and of the event. It's just normal - but I find it a bit too easy to call the witch and burn it without trying to ask why.

38 models is still 8 models he has to lose. That drops say 8 heroes.

The mix of forces doesn't bother me one bit. The lack of basic troops does not bother me one bit.

However, the event was clearly not about making the hardest force you can to stomp over others. The event also makes it clear you are to discuss and ensure that the 2 forces are adjusted to provide some rough balance. He made no attempt to let the other person know what he had, and leave you with a not unreasonable assumption that they are what the model is. Then he wanted to defend without rolling. I don't see any 'borderline' just 100% WAAC TFG.

puree wrote:
38 models is still 8 models he has to lose. That drops say 8 heroes.

The mix of forces doesn't bother me one bit. The lack of basic troops does not bother me one bit.

However, the event was clearly not about making the hardest force you can to stomp over others. The event also makes it clear you are to discuss and ensure that the 2 forces are adjusted to provide some rough balance. He made no attempt to let the other person know what he had, and leave you with a not unreasonable assumption that they are what the model is. Then he wanted to defend without rolling. I don't see any 'borderline' just 100% WAAC TFG.

If MongooseMatt played that game as it was, I think it's acceptable to assume he did agree to it - and I believe there was a minimum of talking before, since the Dwarf Player asked to defend.

Which would be perfectly understandable as he stated - of course his army was made for a defensive role, that may have been his background as well. We don't know, we only have these facts on the blog.

It's a bit easy to talk about "TFG" in that case. To me, if 12 players did their best to come with painted armies, it's more because they just wanted to play AoS with fellow players. Yeah, even the Dwarf Player.

But then, there are many ways to interpret an event's rules - especially in that AoS time. The way that Dwarf Player saw the game was maybe not the same as MongooseMatt's. We don't know that.

Maybe the guy genuinely thought it was balanced? I mean he followed the rules though made different calls over ambiguous rules. I dare say every issue could have been avoided with a comp pack, or an official balancing mechanism.

I think it's pretty reasonable to see one war machine (incl crew) as one model.

Otherwise, do you claim that a empire knight (or mounted model of any kind really) should count as two models? There is a horse and a rider after all.

That ogre cannon consist of a ogre gunner, a beast and a carriage so... three models? Does it matter that they are on the same base? What if the dwarven war machine is mounted on a base, Surely bases explicitly don't matter in AoS?

This numbers game doesn't really matter. Even if we could agree on how to define "model"; when a game system gives no army structure and two people meet that has different expectations on to what extent they should avoid making their army too powerful, at least one player will not enjoy the game. It was a obvious problem of AOS from day one when the rules were released and it's why most of us existing players (presumably) chose to not go with the game.

Ironically , there would probably be better balance in the armies, if there were no restrictions at all laid forth on what you can bring.

Any cap on wounds or number of models just act as a justification for anyone bringing a army made to mercilessly crush his opponent. After all, he did adhere to any restrictions put forth, didn't he?