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2016/01/08 00:35:33
Subject: Texas medical Committee votes to remove life sustaining care from fully concious man
On December 23, 2015, a forty-six-year-old man named Chris Dunn died of complications from presumed (though unconfirmed) pancreatic cancer. In a few short months, illness ravaged this ex-sheriff’s deputy, his stout physique shriveling to skin on bones. In his final weeks, a breathing tube and ventilator were all that separated him from death.
I have no doubt that his physicians at Methodist Hospital in Houston, Texas, did everything within reason to devise a cure and, when that was deemed impossible, to provide pain relief and comfort care. It is worth noting that Dunn was uninsured. Thus, the hospital and physicians may have provided his treatment without compensation. So where is the controversy in this tragic story?
Under Texas law (the Texas Advance Directives Act of 1999), a hospital medical ethics committee can override a patient's or a family’s wish for continued life-sustaining care. Note the term “life-sustaining.” This case was not about unusually aggressive treatment done in a futile effort to achieve a cure. This was about providing the care necessary to sustain the life of this terminally ill patient until he inevitably died. In this instance, the essential elements of that care were a feeding tube and a ventilator (i.e., breathing apparatus).
There are circumstances in which the Texas law would serve a justifiable purpose. For example, if a patient has suffered irreversible total brain death and advanced medical equipment is the only reason blood continues to circulate through an otherwise deceased body, withdrawing medical support is justified under virtually any moral code.
But none of that applied in this case. As this video reveals, Chris Dunn was fully awake, cognizant (though unable to speak because of the breathing tube in his throat), and literally begging to live when the hospital ethics committee convened to decide his fate.
Death by Committee
This was not a situation in which doctors were up against the limits of medical technology, the treatment was causing significant harm to the patient, or the benefits of continued care had ceased. On the contrary, the technology involved in this patient’s care is commonplace, the patient wanted treatment to continue, and its benefit was obvious in keeping him alive.
Despite these facts, the committee voted to withdraw life-sustaining care. In other words, they voted to terminate Chris Dunn’s life. When his family resisted, attorneys for Methodist Hospital petitioned the court to appoint their designee as the patient’s legal guardian so that they could end his life. It is difficult to imagine a more malevolent perversion of the word “guardian.”
Having participated in many treatment discussions on behalf of terminally ill patients, I will readily acknowledge that patients and families sometimes have unrealistic hopes for a cure. However, acknowledging this possibility does not redeem a badly flawed law or vindicate a morally corrupt decision. In deciding to withdraw life-sustaining treatment from an alert and cognizant patient who so obviously wanted to continue living, the hospital and its ethics committee stole from him the two most fundamental rights enumerated in our Constitution: life and liberty.
No explanation was offered in the hospital’s letter to the family—just this terse statement: “[The Ethics] Committee has decided that life-sustaining care is medically inappropriate for Chris.” Given the confidentiality rules that govern medical committee deliberations, we will never know why the panel decided that this man did not deserve continued life-sustaining care. However, we know he was not permitted to have an advocate present during the committee’s deliberations, and he was denied any opportunity to appeal the committee’s decision.
Virtue Has Left the Room
A hospital spokesperson may have provided an important insight into the committee’s deliberation when he stated, “We feel strongly that every decision we have made is in the best interest of the patient.” This is a key concept. When faced with a conflict between the physicians’ treatment recommendations and the patient’s wishes, medical ethicists often invoke the “best interests” standard, weighing the potential benefits and burdens of a particular course of treatment. For patients with terminal illnesses, this standard often leads to the utilitarian question: Is the patient’s life still worth living?
In Chris Dunn’s case, the committee’s answer was “no.” Relative strangers with little or no knowledge of his values and beliefs weighed his “quality of life” and decided that he no longer deserved to live.
Consider the implications of this. According to the tenets of contemporary bioethics, exemplified here by Methodist Hospital, the weakest and most vulnerable among us have less value than the strong and powerful. Of course, each one of us who lives long enough will someday join the ranks of the weak and vulnerable.
The ethics committee members would undoubtedly argue that they considered many factors and at all times had the patient’s “best interest” in mind, just as the hospital spokesperson said. But that leaves unanswered the biggest question of all: How did these committee members who had only recently met the patient—if they ever met him at all—know that it was in his best interest for them to end his life?
On many occasions, I have watched anguished parents struggle to discern what is in the best interest of their terminally ill child—a child they have known since birth. Likewise, loving spouses often suffer the torment of not knowing what their partner of fifty years might want. But, somehow, we are to believe that these committee members were able to deduce existential truths about what was in Chris Dunn’s best interest?
The inconsistency of modern bioethics is breathtaking. On the one hand, if you want to end your chronic suffering or deal with a terminal illness by committing suicide, today’s utilitarian ethicists will invoke personal autonomy as the guiding principle and endorse your plans. But if you choose to continue living in spite of your suffering or terminal diagnosis, those same ethicists brush aside the notion of personal autonomy, label your request as unreasonable, and conclude that you are sadly incapable of making the “right” choice.
Under the traditional Hippocratic oath, physicians vow: “Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick,” and “I will keep them from harm and injustice.” For over two thousand years, physicians pledged to care for and protect the weak and infirm, and deeply imbedded in this covenant was the idea of equality. This case shows how far we have drifted from those precepts. Today, medical ethics committees go behind closed doors to decide whether a fully cognizant patient begging to live is worth the physician’s effort.
A Cultural Tipping Point
It is a morally impoverished society that would withdraw life-sustaining treatment from a dying man and steal from him any chance for spiritual serenity when he most needs it. It is worse still that this was done by a self-described “faith-based” organization. Under what precept of Christian faith does someone claim the authority to play God?
Chris Dunn died before the court battle concluded. We will never know if Methodist Hospital would have been awarded guardianship and, thus, empowered to withdraw his life-sustaining treatment.
What we do know is this: Modern bioethics has wholly abandoned America’s foundational concept of equality. Instead, each patient’s life is assigned moral value (or not) based on impossibly vague and relativistic criteria such as happiness, suffering, and “the common good.” In our not-so-brave new world, some human lives are worth more than others, and the inviolable dignity of human life has become passé.
Nearly four thousand years of Judeo-Christian tradition taught us that each human life is sacred and has inviolable dignity. Reason alone tells us that human life is special and we have a duty to protect one another. And that duty is especially strong when dealing with those in a weakened and vulnerable state. Once we abandon these values—once our society accepts a hierarchy or pecking order of human life—all of the rights and protections that follow from these luminous principles are lost.
As distressing and desperate as his final days must have been, Chris Dunn’s death will serve a noble purpose if it spawns a public debate and helps to rekindle a respect for all human life. I only hope it is not too late to restore the Hippocratic virtues that once reflected our nation’s highest ideals.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/08 00:42:54
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2016/01/08 00:40:06
Subject: Texas medical Committee removes life sustaining Care From Full Concious man
motyak wrote: Need to be a subscriber to read it...help a brother out?
I just grabbed it off google, that's weird. Let me copy & paste:
Spoiler:
Challenge to state's 'futile care' law seeks to continue life support for local man
Hospital wants to end treatment for critically ill Pasadena resident
An image of a gravely ill man appearing to plead for his life in a Houston hospital bed has drawn renewed attention to the ethical and practical questions swirling around the debate over end-of-life care.
Texas Right to Life has sued Houston Methodist Hospital on behalf of Chris Dunn, 46, after an ethics committee determined that further efforts to sustain Dunn's life would only prolong his suffering. The organization wants the hospital to keep Dunn on a breathing machine and to provide additional medical care.
Texas Right to Life has taken up the cause of some 300 patients in similar situations, said its director, Melissa Conway. But Dunn's is the first in which the family was willing to share its story publicly and the patient was alert enough to make his wishes known in a video, which has caught the attention of conservative websites and others online.
The case is the latest example of the lack of consensus on who should have the authority to remove life support after doctors judge that a patient has no hope of recovery. The Texas Advanced Directives Act, a statute that set up the ethics committee procedure, was an effort to reach a compromise on the emotionally charged issue.
The statute, commonly known as a futile care law, has drawn continued criticism from both sides, however. Several efforts to revise it, most recently in 2013, have failed.
Many families and right-to-life advocates contend it gives too much power to the medical community and appropriates a decision that should be made by loved ones.
"It never occurred to me that this would lead to death," Evelyn Kelly, Dunn's mother, said of her son's illness. "He's too young to die."
Law 'less than perfect'
Doctors and experts in medical law and ethics say continuing treatment in some end-of-life cases is inhumane.
"The statute is less than perfect," said William Winslade, a professor of medical humanities and law at The University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston and the University of Houston. "But there's no constitutional right to endless medical care."
In the video, recorded Dec. 2, attorney Joe Nixon introduces himself to Dunn, lying in a hospital bed with a breathing tube in his mouth and a monitor recording his vital signs.
"Chris, we're trying to make sure the hospital continues to give you good care," says Nixon, wearing a paper smock to prevent infection. "Do you want to stay alive?'
In response, Dunn nods slightly and steeples his hands in a gesture indicating prayer.
Dunn, a Pasadena resident, went to a hospital there in early October after experiencing abdominal pain. A scan revealed a mass on his pancreas, and two days later he was taken by ambulance to Houston Methodist.
The pancreatic mass grew so large that it pinched Dunn's small intestine and kidney, Kelly said. His organs began failing, and he was placed on a breathing tube. Kelly asked that doctors perform more procedures, but the hospital told her Dunn was too sick. Conway, the Texas Right to Life leader, said the hospital had not pursued all possible remedies.
In mid-November, hospital staff told Kelly they had done all they could do. Court documents said Dunn was diagnosed with end-stage liver disease, gastric obstruction, a malignant pancreatic mass, respiratory failure and gastrointestinal bleeding.
An ethics committee made up of physicians, a medical ethicist, chaplains, social workers and nurses decided that life-sustaining treatment was medically inappropriate.
A physician called Dunn's condition "irreversible and progressively terminal," court documents state.
Kelly said she believed the decision was based on her son's lack of insurance and inability to pay for his care.
Stefanie Asin, a Houston Methodist spokeswoman, said this was untrue, noting the hospital's $126 million annual charity care budget.
"This has absolutely nothing to do with insurance," Asin said.
Growing sicker
Dunn grew up in Pasadena with his mother and three younger siblings. Dunn lives with his brother and mother in Pasadena; he has been married twice but has no children. He has worked as an emergency medical technician, sheriff's deputy and homeland security officer, relatives said.
Growing up, Dunn "was like a father figure" to his younger siblings, said his sister, Holly Gomez.
"He always took care of us, cooked for us, read to us," Gomez said. "He taught me how to tie my shoes."
The lawsuit seeking to keep Dunn alive, filed Nov. 30, says a section of the Advanced Directives Act deprives patients of due process rights: "The decision of the committee is final, unreviewable and nonappealable," said Nixon, an attorney for the group.
A judge has twice temporarily blocked termination of Dunn's treatment. Kelly said his lungs were filling with liquid after nearly two months on a ventilator, and he was growing sicker despite the equipment.
The Texas Hospital Association says the Advanced Directives Act is invoked rarely - just 21 times in 2011, for example, amid 1.5 million patients
Peter Linzer, professor of law at the University of Houston, said the law is meant to let hospitals divert crucial resources from patients they feel cannot be saved to patients who have a chance.
"The question really comes down to: Should there be legal review of medical decisions?" said Linzer. "Should it be within the discretion of the hospital to decide when to terminate life-sustaining methods? That's a tough question."
For Kelly, every day is consumed by the dread that her son will die in a hospital bed.
Physicians told her he would die about five minutes after the tube was removed. She can't stop thinking, she said, about what those five minutes would entail,
Reporter Emma Hinchliffe contributed to this report.
This gives an idea of the background regarding his case before he died. Life Support was never removed and he died while still on life support.
2016/01/08 01:15:41
Subject: Texas medical Committee votes to remove life sustaining care from fully concious man
Sorry, but I feel like if you have metastasized pancreatic cancer, you're done, full stop. Steve Jobs couldn't pull that one out with a bajillion dollars and several hobo livers. I'm sorry that he died, but that's pancreatic cancer, man.
hotsauceman1 wrote: What The Hell? I thought we where promised death panels where NOT gonna be a thing.
Thanks, Obama, for travelling back in time and passing a state law in texas 17 years ago.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/01/08 01:30:33
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2016/01/08 05:59:39
Subject: Texas medical Committee votes to remove life sustaining care from fully concious man
Ouze wrote: Sorry, but I feel like if you have metastasized pancreatic cancer, you're done, full stop. Steve Jobs couldn't pull that one out with a bajillion dollars and several hobo livers. I'm sorry that he died, but that's pancreatic cancer, man.
Which is not something anyone is disputing. The fact that someone is terminally ill doesn't grant you the right to murder them and get it over with faster. He was conscious and able to make the decision to continue treatment and extend his life as long as possible. And that's all there is to it. Every person who attempted to remove his life support against his wishes should be charged with attempted murder, and I wouldn't shed a single tear for them if they were executed for their crimes.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2016/01/08 06:13:09
Subject: Texas medical Committee votes to remove life sustaining care from fully concious man
Ouze wrote: Sorry, but I feel like if you have metastasized pancreatic cancer, you're done, full stop. Steve Jobs couldn't pull that one out with a bajillion dollars and several hobo livers. I'm sorry that he died, but that's pancreatic cancer, man.
Which is not something anyone is disputing. The fact that someone is terminally ill doesn't grant you the right to murder them and get it over with faster. He was conscious and able to make the decision to continue treatment and extend his life as long as possible. And that's all there is to it. Every person who attempted to remove his life support against his wishes should be charged with attempted murder, and I wouldn't shed a single tear for them if they were executed for their crimes.
For once, I agree with you. Terminating the life of a person who is an unconscious vegetable with no hope of recovery or even regaining consciousness is one thing; terminating the life of someone who wants to live is nothing short of murder, and should be treated as such. I don't even agree with that other decision about "right to die" where the woman with terminal cancer was given drugs to kill herself; that slippery slope is probably what led to this incident.
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2016/01/08 06:31:24
Subject: Texas medical Committee votes to remove life sustaining care from fully concious man
d-usa wrote: There is probably a legal difference between "killing someone" and "stop keeping them alive".
In the eyes of the law, that's the case at least.
In the context of a hospital, where the patient is already on life support? Good luck arguing the technicality that you didn't directly kill them, you just turned off the machines that were keeping them alive.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2016/01/08 07:13:42
Subject: Texas medical Committee votes to remove life sustaining care from fully concious man
d-usa wrote: There is probably a legal difference between "killing someone" and "stop keeping them alive".
In the eyes of the law, that's the case at least.
In the context of a hospital, where the patient is already on life support? Good luck arguing the technicality that you didn't directly kill them, you just turned off the machines that were keeping them alive.
You don't need luck arguing the technicality when there is a law that was created for exactly that purpose.
2016/01/08 07:14:38
Subject: Texas medical Committee votes to remove life sustaining care from fully concious man
I watched the video and it looked like billing him as "fully conscious" is a bit over the top. They have to ask him a number of times to even look at them before he responds.
They ask him, "Do you want to stay alive?" Of course he does. He's someone who had a severe medical condition appear out of the blue and he was probably hoping they'd somehow treat it. But I don't see any video of them telling him that they can't actually cure him and he's going to die and what does he want them to do. He doesn't look a lot like he's in any condition to make such a decision to begin with. In any event, it's far from the situation described, with some poor fully conscious man being murdered by an evil, money-grubbing hospital.
What's weirder is that the hospital ethics committee had a priest on it. Is that normal? I guess it sort of makes sense for treating religious patients, but it'd never really occurred to me before.
2016/01/08 07:16:31
Subject: Texas medical Committee votes to remove life sustaining care from fully concious man
As I understand it it's normal for Christian-based hospitals. I believe (not 100% sure) that St Andrews up here in Brisbane has a similar structure to their board. But I can't quite remember.
I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own...
2016/01/08 07:25:16
Subject: Texas medical Committee votes to remove life sustaining care from fully concious man
motyak wrote: As I understand it it's normal for Christian-based hospitals. I believe (not 100% sure) that St Andrews up here in Brisbane has a similar structure to their board. But I can't quite remember.
Yeah, Methodist Hospital is still affiliated with the Methodist Church (worth pointing out because it's also not uncommon for hospitals to be purchased by non-religious companies while keeping the religious name).
But I think even for non-religious hospitals it wouldn't be uncommon to have a religious representative on an ethics board as just another voice in the process.
2016/01/08 07:34:05
Subject: Texas medical Committee votes to remove life sustaining care from fully concious man
d-usa wrote: You don't need luck arguing the technicality when there is a law that was created for exactly that purpose.
Ethically speaking it's still murder, even if you pass a law approving it.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2016/01/08 07:36:44
Subject: Texas medical Committee votes to remove life sustaining care from fully concious man
That's scary! I had an operation under general anaesthetic at the Mercy once and that sounds pretty religious. What if there'd been an accident and I'd been trapped there at the whims of some ethics panel, the head of whom was a mad priest chanting "KILL THE ATHEIST! KILL THE ATHEIST!"??!
2016/01/08 07:37:25
Subject: Texas medical Committee votes to remove life sustaining care from fully concious man
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: That's scary! I had an operation under general anaesthetic at the Mercy once and that sounds pretty religious. What if there'd been an accident and I'd been trapped there at the whims of some ethics panel, the head of whom was a mad priest chanting "KILL THE ATHEIST! KILL THE ATHEIST!"??!
d-usa wrote: You don't need luck arguing the technicality when there is a law that was created for exactly that purpose.
Ethically speaking it's still murder, even if you pass a law approving it.
So you're talking about arguing a technicality...of ethics. That seems like a reeeeally murky place to be arguing.
Very true. At this point I'm just going to put my faith in the actual ethics board that handled the situation, with maybe a little bias that a religious hospital is just a little less likely to just kill someone.
2016/01/08 07:47:29
Subject: Texas medical Committee votes to remove life sustaining care from fully concious man
motyak wrote: So you're talking about arguing a technicality...of ethics. That seems like a reeeeally murky place to be arguing.
There's nothing murky about it. This is the equivalent of arguing that you didn't technically kill someone, you just fired a bullet and it's not at all your fault that the bullet caused fatal damage to them. Or that you can walk by a patient in the hospital, rip out their life support connections, and claim that you didn't really kill them, you just declined to continue helping them live. The only difference here is that someone filed some "you can kill this person" paperwork to justify the murder.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2016/01/08 07:57:20
Subject: Texas medical Committee votes to remove life sustaining care from fully concious man
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: That's scary! I had an operation under general anaesthetic at the Mercy once and that sounds pretty religious. What if there'd been an accident and I'd been trapped there at the whims of some ethics panel, the head of whom was a mad priest chanting "KILL THE ATHEIST! KILL THE ATHEIST!"??!
...what?
I'm just kidding. I was a private patient and the death panels are only allowed to murder the public ones.
2016/01/08 08:01:59
Subject: Texas medical Committee votes to remove life sustaining care from fully concious man
motyak wrote: So you're talking about arguing a technicality...of ethics. That seems like a reeeeally murky place to be arguing.
There's nothing murky about it. This is the equivalent of arguing that you didn't technically kill someone, you just fired a bullet and it's not at all your fault that the bullet caused fatal damage to them. Or that you can walk by a patient in the hospital, rip out their life support connections, and claim that you didn't really kill them, you just declined to continue helping them live. The only difference here is that someone filed some "you can kill this person" paperwork to justify the murder.
Except w have had this justification forever, and if your line of thinking is correct it would mean that I have murdered a lot of people in a variety of ways.
I have switched of ventilators on people whose body was alive but who were brain dead. With that machine breathing for them they could have lived for a long time, but I switched it off and killed them.
I have switched of feeding tubes on people who could have years and maybe even decades. But I turned it off and killed them.
I have done CPR that was so effective that the person actually opened their eyes because their brain was alive and perfusing because of my actions, and as long as people were able to switch out we probably could have kept him alive for a very long time. But we never could get a perfusing rhythm in his heart no matter what we did, and eventually we stopped keeping him alive, and we killed him.
And I tell you, there is something that lays very heavily on you when you are literally keeping someone alive with your own two hands while giving them CPR and pumping oxygen and blood into their brain and you know that your actions are the only thing standing between him and death while also knowing that your actions are futile and you will have to stop and watch the same eyes that are staring at you with terror slowly glaze over and go blank.
But having been in those situations I realize that both legally and ethically, there is a distinction between killing someone and not keeping them alive anymore. It's a distinction that doesn't fit into neat little boxes and makes a lot of people very uncomfortable, rightfully so I might add, but it's there.
2016/01/08 08:05:29
Subject: Texas medical Committee votes to remove life sustaining care from fully concious man
motyak wrote: So you're talking about arguing a technicality...of ethics. That seems like a reeeeally murky place to be arguing.
There's nothing murky about it. This is the equivalent of arguing that you didn't technically kill someone, you just fired a bullet and it's not at all your fault that the bullet caused fatal damage to them. Or that you can walk by a patient in the hospital, rip out their life support connections, and claim that you didn't really kill them, you just declined to continue helping them live. The only difference here is that someone filed some "you can kill this person" paperwork to justify the murder.
Not at all. Especially in this case considering the machines he was still on could not even save/prolong this mans life. The video of him "communicating" actually does more to hurt the idea that he wants to live than it does help. If you will notice in the video, he has restraints on his arms. This would indicate that he has attempted to remove either his IVs or his breathing tube himself at some point, both of which would have caused his death. He is shown giving a praying gesture when asked if he wants to live, but it does not indicate whether he is praying for death or life. There is so much up in the air about this it is ridiculous. How alert was he? Could he tell you what day it was? Could he tell you where he was? Could he recognize anybody in the room? Could he tell you what his name was? We are lacking so much information in this particular instance that none of us, even those of us who are medical professionals, can make any claims as to his mental state or his medical condition.
You are giving a knee jerk reaction and calling something murder that isn't even murder, because they did not remove the life support. You are condemning people for something they did not do.
2016/01/08 08:08:17
Subject: Texas medical Committee votes to remove life sustaining care from fully concious man
d-usa wrote: Except w have had this justification forever, and if your line of thinking is correct it would mean that I have murdered a lot of people in a variety of ways.
Those examples aren't at all the same because the brain is gone, even if you can maintain the illusion of life with the body. The closest example is the third one, and even in that case there was no realistic hope of keeping up life support much longer. That's not at all the same as the case in the OP, where the patient was conscious, able to express their desire to continue living, and in a stable condition where no extraordinary efforts were required to keep them alive (at least until their terminal illness killed them).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dreadwinter wrote: Especially in this case considering the machines he was still on could not even save/prolong this mans life.
Of course they could prolong it. They were doing exactly that as this dispute was happening!
The video of him "communicating" actually does more to hurt the idea that he wants to live than it does help. If you will notice in the video, he has restraints on his arms. This would indicate that he has attempted to remove either his IVs or his breathing tube himself at some point, both of which would have caused his death. He is shown giving a praying gesture when asked if he wants to live, but it does not indicate whether he is praying for death or life. There is so much up in the air about this it is ridiculous. How alert was he? Could he tell you what day it was? Could he tell you where he was? Could he recognize anybody in the room? Could he tell you what his name was? We are lacking so much information in this particular instance that none of us, even those of us who are medical professionals, can make any claims as to his mental state or his medical condition.
That's why you err on the side of continuing to keep someone alive. You don't get to end someone's life unless you have explicit permission, or their brain is clearly gone beyond any hope of regaining consciousness.
You are giving a knee jerk reaction and calling something murder that isn't even murder, because they did not remove the life support. You are condemning people for something they did not do.
They only failed to murder him because the courts intervened to stop it and the case wasn't resolved before he died of other causes. You don't get credit for not murdering someone because someone else's bullet hit and killed them before yours got there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/08 08:12:25
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2016/01/08 08:13:15
Subject: Texas medical Committee votes to remove life sustaining care from fully concious man
Peregrine wrote: . That's not at all the same as the case in the OP, where the patient was conscious, able to express their desire to continue living, and in a stable condition where no extraordinary efforts were required to keep them alive (at least until their terminal illness killed them).
He wasn't stable, as was evidenced by his natural death.
And just like the video footage of Terry Schiavo I trust actual ethics panels more than people with an agenda.
Edit: Of note, the feeding tube patient wasn't brain dead either, just terminal cancer.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/08 08:18:52
2016/01/08 08:16:03
Subject: Texas medical Committee votes to remove life sustaining care from fully concious man
Wouldn't he be so hopped up on morphine that asking him even simple questions would be redundant?
Anecdotally I have witnessed a terminal patient rave to the last about wanting their shoes and socks removed. Once they were lied too that they had been taken the patient slipped off fairly peacefully.
2016/01/08 08:27:29
Subject: Texas medical Committee votes to remove life sustaining care from fully concious man
d-usa wrote: He wasn't stable, as was evidenced by his natural death.
So? By that standard nobody is in a stable condition because we all die eventually. He didn't die until almost a month after the hospital wanted to kill him. That's not at all the same as a case where maybe, with extraordinary effort, it might be possible to keep a person alive for a few minutes longer.
Edit: Of note, the feeding tube patient wasn't brain dead either, just terminal cancer.
Were they conscious or plausibly capable of regaining consciousness before dying?
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2016/01/08 08:28:04
Subject: Re:Texas medical Committee votes to remove life sustaining care from fully concious man
The article states that the patient was 'stable' to a certain degree, but it might also have been relevant under what kind of medication he was stable. If his cardiovascular system was only working because there was a continuous i.v. influx of catecholamines that were not reduceable without his blood pressure dropping to nowhere, that could be described as stable - for a while. It's surely not stable in terms of "He can live months and years like this". We also do not know in how much pain he was - if he was stable under high doses of morphine or other opiates, that is also something that is very difficult to continue for months and years without severe complications.
Metastasized pancreatic cancer is a damn sure death sentence, as Ouze has mentioned before, I think. However, I agree that there seems to be information missing about what exactly caused the ethics board to recommend shutting off life support at THIS point and not simply let the cancer take him in its own time. The exact reason for might not be disclosed due to patient confidentiality, perhaps? Still, I'd like to know.
2016/01/08 08:34:05
Subject: Texas medical Committee votes to remove life sustaining care from fully concious man
d-usa wrote: He wasn't stable, as was evidenced by his natural death.
So? By that standard nobody is in a stable condition because we all die eventually. He didn't die until almost a month after the hospital wanted to kill him. That's not at all the same as a case where maybe, with extraordinary effort, it might be possible to keep a person alive for a few minutes longer.
Edit: Of note, the feeding tube patient wasn't brain dead either, just terminal cancer.
Were they conscious or plausibly capable of regaining consciousness before dying?
Uhhh, lets see. According yo you, anything can happen.
By that standard nobody is in a stable condition because we all die eventually.