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It came up in a recent game, I looked around the internet and there were lots of forum posts saying "no," but they were all old and possibly out of date. There's something in the rulebook suggesting so, but it's in the section regarding charging multiple units, so some litigious bastard might claim it's specific to that. Can anyone quote me a bit of the rulebook which says that if you shoot, you can't charge a different unit? Or is this a new 7ed era and you can shoot one way and run another?

You can not shoot at one unit and then assault a separate unit without declaring a multi assault.

In the case of a multi assault, the unit you shot at must be your primary assault target.

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:
You can not shoot at one unit and then assault a separate unit without declaring a multi assault.

In the case of a multi assault, the unit you shot at must be your primary assault target.

Oh sure, thanks, I found that bit, but what happens when you're only assaulting one unit. Can you assault a unit other than the one you shot at?

Also worth noting that a unit that fired in the shooting phase can only charge a unit that it fired on in the shooting phase. This means that destroying the target in the shooting phase does not leave you free to assault other units in the assault phase.

Bubba_Ho-tep wrote:

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:
You can not shoot at one unit and then assault a separate unit without declaring a multi assault.

In the case of a multi assault, the unit you shot at must be your primary assault target.

Oh sure, thanks, I found that bit, but what happens when you're only assaulting one unit. Can you assault a unit other than the one you shot at?

Unfortunately no. You must assault the same unit that you shot at.

And as noted above if you destroyed what you shot at by shooting you loose all ability to assault with that unit that turn.

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:

Bubba_Ho-tep wrote:

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:
You can not shoot at one unit and then assault a separate unit without declaring a multi assault.

In the case of a multi assault, the unit you shot at must be your primary assault target.

Oh sure, thanks, I found that bit, but what happens when you're only assaulting one unit. Can you assault a unit other than the one you shot at?

Unfortunately no. You must assault the same unit that you shot at.

And as noted above if you destroyed what you shot at by shooting you loose all ability to assault with that unit that turn.

One exception to this is that if you destroy a transport in the shooting phase you can then charge the disembarked passengers in the assault phase.

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:

Bubba_Ho-tep wrote:

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:
You can not shoot at one unit and then assault a separate unit without declaring a multi assault.

In the case of a multi assault, the unit you shot at must be your primary assault target.

Oh sure, thanks, I found that bit, but what happens when you're only assaulting one unit. Can you assault a unit other than the one you shot at?

Unfortunately no. You must assault the same unit that you shot at.

And as noted above if you destroyed what you shot at by shooting you loose all ability to assault with that unit that turn.

Unless the Shooting target was a Transport. If the Transport is destroyed, the unit that was Embarked on it may be Charged by the Transport's shooter.

Bubba_Ho-tep wrote:
It came up in a recent game, I looked around the internet and there were lots of forum posts saying "no," but they were all old and possibly out of date. There's something in the rulebook suggesting so, but it's in the section regarding charging multiple units, so some litigious bastard might claim it's specific to that. Can anyone quote me a bit of the rulebook which says that if you shoot, you can't charge a different unit? Or is this a new 7ed era and you can shoot one way and run another?

Page 45 of the main rulebook, bottom of the first column under the heading 'Declare Charge'. Text is in bold.

 Ghaz wrote:
Page 45 of the main rulebook, bottom of the first column under the heading 'Declare Charge'. Text is in bold.

Thanks so much, that's exactly what I was looking for. Not sure how I missed it.

Im not sure but what about split fire. can one member shoot something separate from the unit and still charge?

Yes, but the charge must be what the unit (except the split firer) shot at.

 Krellnus wrote:
Yes, but the charge must be what the unit (except the split firer) shot at.

On what basis?

Split Fire should allow you to charge either target. The unit has chosen two targets; one by the Split Firing model and the rest by "the rest of the unit". Not "the unit" but specifically "the rest of the unit".

A unit can only declare a charge at the unit it targeted in the shooting phase, if a model splits fire, it does not count as that unit targeting the second target.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:
Yes, but the charge must be what the unit (except the split firer) shot at.

On what basis?

Split Fire should allow you to charge either target. The unit has chosen two targets; one by the Split Firing model and the rest by "the rest of the unit". Not "the unit" but specifically "the rest of the unit".

On the basis that the model chose a separate target, not the unit, and Charging requires the Unit's Shooting Target (if shooting applied).

Super-heavy and PotMS multi-targeting is a different mess all together.

 Krellnus wrote:
A unit can only declare a charge at the unit it targeted in the shooting phase, if a model splits fire, it does not count as that unit shooting at the second target.

The second target is the target of "the rest of the unit" but not "the unit". The Split Fire shooting attack is resolved first.

"When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule shoots, one model in the unit can shoot at a different target to the rest of his unit. Once this shooting attack has been resolved, resolve the shooting attacks made by the rest of the unit. These must be at a different target, which cannot be a unit forced to disembark as a result of the Split Firing unit’s initial shooting attack."

You have two parts of the unit each choosing a target; the Split Firing model and "the rest of the unit". Together "the unit" as a whole has chosen two targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:
On the basis that the model chose a separate target, not the unit, and Charging requires the Unit's Shooting Target (if shooting applied).

The rest of the unit has chosen one target, and the Split Firing model (who is part of "the unit", though not "the rest of the unit") has chosen another.

You're mistaking "the rest of the unit" for "the unit".

 Mr. Shine wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
On the basis that the model chose a separate target, not the unit, and Charging requires the Unit's Shooting Target (if shooting applied).

The rest of the unit has chosen one target, and the Split Firing model (who is part of "the unit", though not "the rest of the unit") has chosen another.

You're mistaking "the rest of the unit" for "the unit".

No, I'm not. I just don't see permission to use the model's target as A target for the unit. The Split Fire target is never listed as a target for the unit, just the model. "The rest of the unit" is not a factor in this conclusion, but more a reference to when the models fire, they cannot join in with the Split Firing model.

The model that splits fire is still part of the unit.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The model that splits fire is still part of the unit.

And he still did not shoot at the "units" target. The unit's target is that one that you must charge.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The model that splits fire is still part of the unit.

The UNIT picks a target, and a MODEL shoots at a different target using split fire. You have chosen one specific target for your unit and spitfire does not change that.

Charistoph wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:
Yes, but the charge must be what the unit (except the split firer) shot at.

On what basis?

Split Fire should allow you to charge either target. The unit has chosen two targets; one by the Split Firing model and the rest by "the rest of the unit". Not "the unit" but specifically "the rest of the unit".

On the basis that the model chose a separate target, not the unit, and Charging requires the Unit's Shooting Target (if shooting applied).

Super-heavy and PotMS multi-targeting is a different mess all together.

I have a imperial knight. I shoot with avenger gat. I shoot a nearby unit. The heavy flamer on the gat reaches out n burns a different squad. The hits and wounds from the gat n flamer kills primary target. Can I still assault the other unit that got burned with one wound?

I shot the melta gun on a transport and explode it. can assault the 2 disembarking unit that is combat squaded...

Can I shoot the gat at a target 36" away, then use heavy flamer which is an underslung of the gat on unit infront of my knight and charge the unit i flamed?

 Filch wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:
Yes, but the charge must be what the unit (except the split firer) shot at.

On what basis?

Split Fire should allow you to charge either target. The unit has chosen two targets; one by the Split Firing model and the rest by "the rest of the unit". Not "the unit" but specifically "the rest of the unit".

On the basis that the model chose a separate target, not the unit, and Charging requires the Unit's Shooting Target (if shooting applied).

Super-heavy and PotMS multi-targeting is a different mess all together.

I have a imperial knight. I shoot with avenger gat. I shoot a nearby unit. The heavy flamer on the gat reaches out n burns a different squad. The hits and wounds from the gat n flamer kills primary target. Can I still assault the other unit that got burned with one wound?

I shot the melta gun on a transport and explode it. can assault the 2 disembarking unit that is combat squaded...

Can I shoot the gat at a target 36" away, then use heavy flamer which is an underslung of the gat on unit infront of my knight and charge the unit i flamed?

lol that is completely different. You can't use an example that does not apply to try and rational another situation

I just want answers because my IK has been underperforming because my opponents argue that I cant charge stuff with my IK because he thinks its not fare to get stomped.

 Filch wrote:
I just want answers because my IK has been underperforming because my opponents argue that I cant charge stuff with my IK because he thinks its not fare to get stomped.

Your would think primary target would be based off which target you shot with your primary weapon. (Don't have the rules near me so I can't verify)

But in the case of multiple shots at different units, designate which unit is the designated target and which are secondary.

Here the ik unit may target any number of units, up to the number of weapons it has, and therefore yes you can target a unit with a flamer, another with the gat and charge either unit.

Chapter Master Angelos wrote:

 Filch wrote:
I just want answers because my IK has been underperforming because my opponents argue that I cant charge stuff with my IK because he thinks its not fare to get stomped.

Your would think primary target would be based off which target you shot with your primary weapon. (Don't have the rules near me so I can't verify)

But in the case of multiple shots at different units, designate which unit is the designated target and which are secondary.

There are no Primary Targets or Secondary Targets involved with the Shooting Phase (it would be easier if it did) like Charging has. Primary Weapons just provide the benefits of Ordnance without the drawbacks. It does nothing about choosing your Charging Target.

Filch wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Super-heavy and PotMS multi-targeting is a different mess all together.

I have a imperial knight. I shoot with avenger gat. I shoot a nearby unit. The heavy flamer on the gat reaches out n burns a different squad. The hits and wounds from the gat n flamer kills primary target. Can I still assault the other unit that got burned with one wound?

I shot the melta gun on a transport and explode it. can assault the 2 disembarking unit that is combat squaded...

Can I shoot the gat at a target 36" away, then use heavy flamer which is an underslung of the gat on unit infront of my knight and charge the unit i flamed?

As I said, this is a different mess all together. For one, Super-Heavy targeting is not quite the same as Split Fire and do not differentiate the Weapon's targets from the unit's target. The Shooting Sequence does not address Multiple targeting at all, and Charging only considers it if you may want to (or must) Charge two or more units and never considers the fact that the unit shot at multiple. Effectively speaking for these, the unit shot at all of them as the unit is allowed to shoot multiple targets, so all are viable targets for a Charge.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Here the ik unit may target any number of units, up to the number of weapons it has, and therefore yes you can target a unit with a flamer, another with the gat and charge either unit.

100% this. the IK has multiple targets and can charge any of them.

Just remember that the flamer only has one target. If after placing the flame template, you happen to clip another unit then that unit was not targeted.

The model is part of the unit - like I said. You can charge either target.

Charistoph wrote:
No, I'm not. I just don't see permission to use the model's target as A target for the unit. The Split Fire target is never listed as a target for the unit, just the model. "The rest of the unit" is not a factor in this conclusion, but more a reference to when the models fire, they cannot join in with the Split Firing model.

At what point is the unit's target determined?

Ordinarily this is done immediately after the unit is nominated to shoot, but this is split into the Split Firing model (who of course is part of the unit nominated to shoot) who then resolves their Split Fire shooting attack, and then the rest of the unit nominated to shoot selects their target and resolves their shooting attack.

Seems clear to me the nominated unit has chosen two targets.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
No, I'm not. I just don't see permission to use the model's target as A target for the unit. The Split Fire target is never listed as a target for the unit, just the model. "The rest of the unit" is not a factor in this conclusion, but more a reference to when the models fire, they cannot join in with the Split Firing model.

At what point is the unit's target determined? Ordinarily this is done immediately after the unit is nominated to shoot, but this is split into the Split Firing model (who of course is part of the unit nominated to shoot) who then resolves their Split Fire shooting attack, and then the rest of the unit nominated to shoot selects their target and resolves their shooting attack.

Seems clear to me the nominated unit has chosen two targets.

The Step 2 when the rest of the unit goes to shoot. I still see no classification of the model's target as a target for the unit nor any directions to treat it as such. I see the directive for one model in the unit to shoot a different target to the rest of his unit. I don't seem it directing the unit to pick two targets with one model shooting one and the rest shooting the other.

Unit interactions versus model interactions are the guide here.