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Hi everyone,

I play IG and I'm making a homemade codex. Basically, the idea is to give some flavour to my units but also fix general IG shortcomings. Then I had the idea to convert some Napoleonic Cossacks as rough riders (you can see them here : http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/646687.page#8385592 ) but I want them to be usable, which is not really the case atm.

Here you have the main profile of my guys, but I'm hesitating on how I should represent the fact they are cavalry. I mean, in WFB, horses did have a profile and could attack, in 40k, one barely notice except they move 12''. I thought about these possibilities:

- give standard RR +1 in T to illustrate the fact they are on horses (pro: a little bit more durable on the table / cons: not really credible since a moto gives +1 T and is way more durable than a horse)
- give them 1D6 Hammer of wrath attacks on charge
- give each RR a free close combat attack resolved at CC2 S3 AP- I3
- Any other idea?

My goal is not to have a broken unit, so I tell you I also plan to give them Outflank to illustrate they are light cavalry. What do you think about all of this?

1D6 HoW seems an awful lot for just horses, I don't see how its justified compared to bigger calvary units like Bloodcrushers and TWC only getting normal HoW.


The core issue with RR has to be the fact that CC in the current edition only really works if you have both mobility and toughness to get to your enemy's target units. With overwatch and the inability to assault from reserves, RR don't have the staying power or damage output to warrant their points cost.

I would model them after the DKoK Death Riders, give them 2 wounds each with carapace armour base. Give them WS4 (they should at least have that if they're dedicated cavalry), give them Hit and Run and 2 attacks base. Make it so the hunting lances are not one-use only. Create a formation with other fast response units (maybe 0-3 hellhound/devil dog/banewolf or chimeras) where they can assault from outflanking and voila you have a potential backfield assault unit. With H and R, you have a decent chance of double-dipping into a unit and they have a decent glass cannon feel that can actually make it into combat. At 10 points a pop I think it's worth it.

Ok. Thanks for the insight Grimskul! That's true they would not make it with their poor T3.

DKoK Riders are nice but I rather see them as line cavalry, like Heavy Lancers from Napoleonic wars. My guys/RR should be lighter and more mobile, I don't really think carapace armor fits for them. Plus 2 wounds for such a model feels strange. I mean, they are just humans, and multiwounds models make the game slower IMO (keeping tracks of wounds during the whole battle is annoying).
What about a +1 in Toughness?

I tried to make some house rules for my Cossacks, from the crappy classic RR. What about this :

-----------WS-BS-S-T-W-I-A-Cd-Svg (50pts)
Ataman---3---3--3-3-1-3--2--8---5+
Cossack--3---3--3-3-1-3--1--7---5+

Wargear : Flak Armour, Power Spears, laspistols, frag & krak grenades, Don Alpha Steeds.
Special rules : Outflank, Light Cavalry.

- May add up to 5 Cossacks : +10pts/fig
- The Ataman may choose an item from the shooting weapons / melee weapons.
- The whole squadron may replace its laspistols by Krinkov Carabines (R:8-16'' S3 AP- ; R:0-8" S3 AP5) : +1pt/fig.
- 2 Cossacks who did not get any of these equipments may take a special weapon (except a flamer).


Special stuff:

Light Cavalry (inspired from the Warp spiders) : once per turn, if an enemy unit declares a charge on the Cossack Squadron, it may make a special move. If it is not retreating, the squadron may immediately move 2D6 in any direction. The charging unit cannot choose another target but can charge if the squadron is still at range at the end of the special move. The Cossacks may act normally during their next turn.

The point of the thread would be to give a "cavalry flavour to them", via their special mounts, which could give them the small bonus we're discussing now.

Looking at your models I was going to comment on the overhand use of a hunting lance (not a natural position to hold a lance!) but realised that it looks like he's throwing it - which makes a lot of sense, given how hunting lances are supposed to work!
That might actually be quite a cool idea in fact; make them a ranged attack.
Something like:

Hunting spear
Range 8", S5 AP3 Assault 1 One Used Only

That way they can avoid actually getting into combat in the first place and still deal some AP3 damage.

Another though was that cavalry (especially light cavalry) was often primarily used to mop up fleeing units, so maybe a special rule like this:

The Thunder of Hooves
Units charged by a model with this special rule while they are falling back must take a -2 penalty to their Ld when rolling to regroup.

@Aben Zin

That's ... actually a good idea! In terms of fluff, that could work well. In terms of tabletop, that would be BS3 5 shots, one use only. Not a really bigger threat than normal RR though. Or we could just make up a rule like when they assault a unit they have shot in the previous shooting phase, they can take their spears back if they win the combat. Kind of weird but why not.

And it is not addressing the problem of RR not really feeling like actual cavalry

I

They either need something that lets them attack out of reserves or need a big increase in toughness. T3 5 up save unit is never going to make it through a round of shooting and overwatch.

They either need something that lets them attack out of reserves or need a big increase in toughness. T3 5 up save unit is never going to make it through a round of shooting and overwatch.

Yep, that's why I think T4, 5+ and a little FnP 6+ should be about right. They would be light cavalry, attacking from the rear, dedicated to the destruction of vehicules and isolated targets like support batteries and weak shooty units. They should be able to hide on their first turn after coming from reserves and then assault.

T4 is not fantastic but still, that's a progress I guess.

I wouldn't.

I would drop them like a bad habit along with Ratlings and start fresh with new concepts to replace them.

That would help them whether small arm fire. I'd still like them to have the ability to assault out of reserve. Hiding a horse size model isn't the easiest and it would go a long way to helping them do their job right.

I wouldn't.

I would drop them like a bad habit along with Ratlings and start fresh with new concepts to replace them.

This is what I trying to do by replacing them in my homemade codex. For the moment, they are kind of useless, so I wanted to hear the thoughts of my fellow Dakkanauts on how we could totally reboot them - if we want them to stay in the codex somehow.

That would help them whether small arm fire. I'd still like them to have the ability to assault out of reserve. Hiding a horse size model isn't the easiest and it would go a long way to helping them do their job right.

Sure, that would be great but kind of too powerful right? It would not be the most scandalous rule break in the current meta but still.

 RazgrizOne wrote:
@Aben Zin
And it is not addressing the problem of RR not really feeling like actual cavalry

That depends what type of cavalry you mean. If you've played Rome: Total War, for instance you h ve Numidian cavalry, which was very lightly armoured and soften the enemy by chucking javelins at them.

I like the idea of a ranged attack inherent with RR's (the Str5 ap3 spear chuck) - I say give them power swords as well, and furious charge.

Str4 ap3 3-4 attacks on the charge is nice and still not overpowered by today's meta.

As far as toughness/save issues, options to buy carapace, medic upgrade for a squad member for regular FNP (or something) or maybe 'augmented steeds' that gives +1 toughness (they even mention that they're riding genetically/mechanically buffed horses).

Edit: Actually, they're already on a mount, give them base T4 with the added option to 'upgrade' their mounts with something like the old doctrines stormtroopers had:

Heavy Horse - 6+ invulnerable
Hussar - Can reroll spear throws
Light Horse - Gain d3 in charges and runs

I like the idea of RR's but I dunno, it might require too much work to really make them worth it.

I don't think that assaulting out of Outflank is that egregious. Assault out of reserves was bad when you could alpha-strike a bunch of choppy guys in and glue down an entire gunline, but when only a few units or formations can do it, it's not bad.

Personally, here's what I might do:

---------------------------------WS-BS-S-T-W-I--A-Ld-Sv (50pts)
Rough Rider Sergeant---4---3---3-4--1-3--2--8---4+ (Cavalry, Character)
Rough Rider----------------4---3---3-4--1-3--1--7---4+ (Cavalry)

Composition: Four Rough Riders, Rough Rider Sergeant
Wargear: Carapace armour, power lances, laspistols, frag & krak grenades, Don Alpha Steeds.
Special rules: Outflank, Surprise Attack, Fleet, Crusader, Lightning Advance, Trample

- May add up to 5 Rough Riders: 10pts/model
- The Rough Rider Sergeant may choose an item from the Ranged Weapons or Melee Weapons list
- The Rough Rider Sergeant may take a combat shield: 5 pts
- The Rough Rider Sergeant may replace his power lance with a power axe, power maul or power sword: free
- The whole squad may replace their laspistols with bolt pistols: +1pt/model
- One Rough Rider per five may replace their laspistol with a plasma gun (15 points) or meltagun (10 points)
- The whole squad may replace their power lances with transonic lances: 2 pts/model

Surprise Attack: When a unit with this special rule arrives from reserves, they may both shoot and charge as long as they do not arrive by Deep Strike or arrive inside a transport.
Lightning Advance: A unit with this special rule adds +3 inches to all movement over open ground and to charge distances.
Trample: If a model with this special rule inflicts any unsaved wounds with its Hammer of Wrath attacks, all models in that unit gain +1A in the following Fight sub-phase.

Transonic Lance: R Melee, S +1/user, AP 3/4, Rending
Like a power lance, a transonic lance uses the first profile on the turn that its bearer charges and the second profile thereafter. A transonic lance always has the Rending special rule.

This might be slightly overpowered at 10ppm - the cost could be tweaked upward if necessary.

(formatting fixes)

Just make them cheaper. The bottom line at the end of the day is they are guardsmen who move 12". They will never be a major CC threat to marines, or any CC army, nor should they be. They should be cheap enough to bring as a fun unit, capable of putting pressure on other shooting armies, and have the possibility of dealing some damage with a hidden fist or melta bomb.

In the year 40k, there are much more frightening cavalry than horses. Between giant wolves and huge rotten bugs, a mere horse, is still just a horse. It is small and frail in comparison. Closer to a steed of slaanesh than anything else.

Here would be my suggestion for the Rough Rider. Basically give them a bit of WS and a few more options in gear. Add to that the fact that genetically altered warhorse should give bonus to toughness and strength and they would be efficient. I have added a reboot of Mogul Kamir and gave him a wife inspired by a historical figure of the same name for a bit of extra flavor. Feel free to comment.

Rough Rider Squad



Mogul Kamir



Amage

To be honest, i wouldn't. They allready perform nicely for me. Especially in current meta full of powerful 3+ stuff.

Well, probably the only thing reasonable for them is carapece armor to live through overwatch a bit better.

If anyone's interested, i run a squad of 5 with a melta bomb on a sarge.

 RazgrizOne wrote:


Light Cavalry (inspired from the Warp spiders) : once per turn, if an enemy unit declares a charge on the Cossack Squadron, it may make a special move. If it is not retreating, the squadron may immediately move 2D6 in any direction. The charging unit cannot choose another target but can charge if the squadron is still at range at the end of the special move. The Cossacks may act normally during their next turn.

I like this rule but I can see an additional bit being added to further express their light assault role. Something like this:

Stampede: "When a friendly unit within 12" of a Rough Rider unit is the target of a successful enemy assault, the Rough Rider unit may immediately declare a charge against the enemy unit, gaining an extra D6" of charge movement."

You keep thinking they are just horses when in fact they are genetically modified and cyborg horses meaning they are likely much more durable and stronger and faster then modern day horses. Think a clysdale and race horse in one with augmented enhancements such as lungs to breathe in the toxic fields krieg type units are fielded or mechanical legs to support the extra weight of an armored infantry. And that's just the krieg type units there is many infantry regiments that use more specialized cavalry such as tallarn makalii mounts which were super strong and fast lizard mounts.

I don't think that assaulting out of Outflank is that egregious. Assault out of reserves was bad when you could alpha-strike a bunch of choppy guys in and glue down an entire gunline, but when only a few units or formations can do it, it's not bad.

Actually, it could be quite annoying for the opponent, especially if we buff them quite a bit. Plus I don't really want special rules to be just the break of a normal rule. I feel I'm GW when doing this. I reckon assaulting from reserves would be awesome but.... I don't know....

That depends what type of cavalry you mean. If you've played Rome: Total War, for instance you h ve Numidian cavalry, which was very lightly armoured and soften the enemy by chucking javelins at them.

The type of cavalry you want should be a matter of regimental doctrine but general RR, perhaps, light cavalry.
I feel like DKoK are more in the XIX°C Lancer style, even though they are also dedicated to recon missions IIRC.

I guess light cavalry could be more adapted to 40k situations ; you can always go and invent futuristic line cavalry by saying "they have AC and super mechanical horses an thus can weather automatic weapons fire" but in the end, with all the weaponry out there, they would not makeit through the charge (see Vraks cavalry charges).

If RR were light cavalry, perhaps they would bet on their mobility and speed to somehow avoid enemy fire and seek for weak spots. Anyway, this vision suits me more

Just make them cheaper. The bottom line at the end of the day is they are guardsmen who move 12". They will never be a major CC threat to marines, or any CC army, nor should they be. They should be cheap enough to bring as a fun unit, capable of putting pressure on other shooting armies, and have the possibility of dealing some damage with a hidden fist or melta bomb.

I don't think it would sold the problem. Even if they were at 7/8pts/fig atm, I'd rather take more special weapons for my infantry or another infantry squad. They have not enough options and are not specialized enough to be useful. And as a tarpit unit, other IG choices would do better.

I like this rule but I can see an additional bit being added to further express their light assault role. Something like this:

Stampede: "When a friendly unit within 12" of a Rough Rider unit is the target of a successful enemy assault, the Rough Rider unit may immediately declare a charge against the enemy unit, gaining an extra D6" of charge movement."

Not a bad idea but kind of situational? If RR outflank or are deployed far from allied units, this rule becomes hard to use?

From all I read here, I would tend to think T4 and (6+) should be mandatory, with some custom extra rules like the "Lightning Advance" jade_angel proposed, or the "Stampede". If I were to go light cavalry, this is what I would propose

-------------WS-BS-S-T-W-I--A-Cd-Svg (50pts)
RR Sarge---3---3--3-4-1--3--2--8---5+
RR-----------3---3--3-4-1--3--1--7---5+

Wargear : Flak Armour, Power Spears, laspistols, frag & krak grenades, Special Horses.
Special rules : Outflank, Light Cavalry.

- May add up to 5 RR : +9pts/fig
- The RR Sarge may choose an item from the shooting weapons / melee weapons.
- The whole squadron may replace its laspistols by lasguns
- 1 RR per 5 models who did not get any of these equipments may take a special weapon (except a flamer).

Special stuff:

Light Cavalry (inspired from the Warp spiders) : once per turn, if an enemy unit declares a charge on the RR Squadron, it may make a special move. If it is not retreating, the squadron may immediately move 2D6 in any direction. The charging unit cannot choose another target but can charge if the squadron is still at range at the end of the special move. The RR may act normally during their next turn.

Special horses : +3'' to any movement, +1T (already counted on profie) FnP 6+.

Everyone could assault out of reserves in 5th and it wasn't that big a deal. It merely mean that you needed to think a bit more of were you would place your back line units. It actually made a lot of units useful and made holding a fast asault unit in reserve a valid option

Only War - Hammer of the Emperor does quite a bit to expand on the fluff for Guard cavalry in general. In addition to rules for alternate mounts, or having doctrines for light cavalry versus heavy cavalry (Krieger Uhlans will be more shock-based compared to the Attilans/Tallarn for example), it also had rules for variant hunting lances. Besides the standard-issue explosive charge, some lances sprayed promethium on impact, others sent electric shocks onto their opponent, and the more extreme ones used plasma or melta warheads instead!

I don't know about you, but I would pay 4 points per model to give an entire Rough Riders unit one-shot Meltabombs, or to each inflict D3+1 S5 AP 4 Hammer of Wrath hits...(granted, they're still nowhere as good as Swooping Hawks in an identical role...)

Melta bomz yeah that would do it. Just melta bombz and on I when they charge.
The ultimate weapon against all those modern big toys.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Only War - Hammer of the Emperor does quite a bit to expand on the fluff for Guard cavalry in general. In addition to rules for alternate mounts, or having doctrines for light cavalry versus heavy cavalry (Krieger Uhlans will be more shock-based compared to the Attilans/Tallarn for example), it also had rules for variant hunting lances. Besides the standard-issue explosive charge, some lances sprayed promethium on impact, others sent electric shocks onto their opponent, and the more extreme ones used plasma or melta warheads instead!

I don't know about you, but I would pay 4 points per model to give an entire Rough Riders unit one-shot Meltabombs, or to each inflict D3+1 S5 AP 4 Hammer of Wrath hits...(granted, they're still nowhere as good as Swooping Hawks in an identical role...)

Firstly, all of this. Secondly, screw the One Time use rule, no one else has to put up with that, why should Rough Riders? Make the Hunting Lances Range:8" S:5 AP:3 Assault 1 base and then let them swap/upgrade to a few different ones.

Lance: This weapon has two profiles, the first is used on the first Fight Sub-Phase after a successful charge, the second is used every round thereafter.

Taser Lance: Range:8" S:4 Ap:- Assault 1, Taser
Taser Lance: Melee S: +2/+1 Ap:- Taser, Lance

Taser: Weapons with the Taser rule wound on a 4+ (unless they would normally wound on a lower roll) and generate 2 extra hits on a a To Hit roll of a 6.

Fire Lance: Range 8" S:4 AP:5 Assault 1, Soul Blaze, Blast
Fire Lance: Melee S:User AP:- Flaming Charge

Flaming Charge: A unit equipped with Fire Lances generates d3 Hammer of Wrath attacks instead of 1 and resolves its Hammer of Wrath hits a S:4 AP:5

Melta Lance: Range 8" S:8 AP1 Assault 1, Melta, Bomb
Melta Lance: Melee S:8 AP1 Melta, Bomb, Unwieldy

Bomb: A Melta Lance always counts as being fired from half range.

Plasma Lance: Range:8" S:7 AP:2 Assault 1, Blast
Plasma Lance: Melee: S: +3/+1 Ap:2 Blazing Fury

Blazing Fury: This generates D3 Hammer of Wrath hits instead of 1, and its Hammer of Wrath hits are resolved at S:7 AP:2.


Obviously most of these will entail a cost increase, usually of only a few points. The Plasma Lance is probably looking at something like 10-15 points per model though. Also remember what is using these lances when you price them, its still only a Guardsmen.

Another interesting idea is to make a second statblock for Xenos Rough Riders, and this would focus more on the beast as the guy on the back is simply pointing it in the right direction and occasionally shooting.

I would fix em by giving them T4 (every other mounted unit gets a toughness bonus, why not them?), remove the One Use from their weapons, give them Hit and Run and Outflank, have Skilled Rider as an upgrade for the squad (at maybe like 2-3 points a pop) and have their points bumped up to 13.

This would make them proper light cavalry and allow them to circle around and harass enemy flanks much more easily.

i think the best way would be to give them and the dark eldar units (universally) monster hunter. it would really put a cap on the MC spam a bit

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I would fix em by giving them T4 (every other mounted unit gets a toughness bonus, why not them?), remove the One Use from their weapons, give them Hit and Run and Outflank, have Skilled Rider as an upgrade for the squad (at maybe like 2-3 points a pop) and have their points bumped up to 13.

This would make them proper light cavalry and allow them to circle around and harass enemy flanks much more easily.

Not all cavalry get toughness bonus - Slaanesh cavalry doesn't, for example.

Ok folks, I will be trying the updated version of RR tonight at my FLGS. I took inspiration in all the stuff you wrote in this thread. That was very useful.

My guys are still Cossacks, so I tried to stay close to the "light cavalry" aspect and did not use the different variations suggested for heavy lancers, despite they were interesting per se. So here are the stats:

RR Cossacks (60pts)

--------------WS---BS---S---T---W---I---A---Ld----Svg
Ataman------3-----3----3---4----1---3---2---8-----5+
RR -----------3-----3----3---4----1---3---1---8-----5+

Unit composition : 1 ataman (character ; cavalry), 4 RR (Cavalry)
Wargear: flak armour, laspistols, power spears, CCW, frag & krak, Don Alpha steeds.
Special rules : Outflank, Light Cavalry
Options:
- May add up to 5 RR : 10pts/fig
- The Ataman may choose weapons from shooting and melee weapons lists.
- The whole squad may take melta bombs : +10pts
- The whole squad may replace its laspistols by Krinkov lascarbines (0-9" S3 AP5 Assault 2, 9-18" S3 AP- Assaut1) : +5pts
- Up to two RR who did not receive any of this equipment may receive a special weapon (flamer excluded)
- Up to two RR who did not receive any of this equipment may receive a melee weapon.

Special stuff:

Light Cavalry (inspired from the Warp spiders) : once per turn, if an enemy unit declares a charge on the RR Squadron, it may make a special move. If it is not retreating, the squadron may immediately move 2D6 in any direction. The charging unit cannot choose another target but can charge if the squadron is still at range at the end of the special move. The RR may act normally during their next turn.

Special horses : +3'' to any movement, +1T (already counted on profie), FnP 6+

So, what do you guys? Do you think it is faire for a medium-intensity meta/low points games? Is it fairly priced in your opinion?

Feedback very much appreciated.

@RazgrizOne

I would not have replaced the Hunting Lance with a Power Spear. The former ones were more powerful and more useful even if they were one use only (it's rare for such a fragile unit to have the chance of making two charges anyway so the one use only isn't that bad). With a Power Spear, units like Chaos Space Marines with Close Combat Weapon might actually still beat you even if you charge because they strike first and with enough punch to hurt your guise before they strike. I would say the lascarabine is barely worth two points. For their price tag, I would also give them the Special Rule Acute Senses since light cavalry was famed for its ability to trek dangerous zones and surround ennemy forces. Because of their speed, I would have perhapse gave them Objetive Secure (via their light cavalry use) too despite being Fast Attack since light cavalry was also used extensively to capture and scout terrain before the arrival of the main force. In that spirit replacing Outflank by Scout isn't such a bad idea.

I'd like to see a choppy RR variant and a shooty RR variant. In a platoon.

Stabby RRs get the usual spears with more melee weapon options (and pistol + CCW) while shooty ones get some sort of LasCarbine and special weapon options. Make them both more durable (either the DKOK treatment, or T4/6++, or carapace), and allow them to be upgraded to vets (stabby ones get WS4, shooty ones get BS4).

To be honest i think the best way to "buff" rough riders isn't to buff them at all. But make them cheap and more accessible. Lets be honest. Theyre unaugmented humans riding horses on a futuristic battlefield. Logically (i use that word loosely with 40k) Theyre going to die. In droves. Like men on foot without horses who also die. In droves.

Therefore: make them part of an infantry platoon, may select 0-3 squads per platoon. 9pts per model. Maybe even 8?

Also add a rough rider platoon as a fast attack choice. 1-5 rough rider squads and 0-1 rough rider command squad. Which consists of a mounted platoon officer and 4 rough riders who may all take a special weapon from the list normally available to RRs. 55pts