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After looking at the new starter box, which I bought today, I came to a realization, one that may seem obvious to a lot of you, but that the new fire warrior box by all means shouldn't be 50$. This is really a catalyst for a lot of the problems I see with this box. From raising the price on basic infantry effecting the consumer, to how the odd number of models inside leave you with less than full unit even though you doubled the amount of parts in the kit, this box just seems confounding to me.

Let me start with the price as that's the first point I found. Really, this box has no need to be 50$. You get 10 fire warriors, 2 drones, and a "mega drone" of sorts when you used to get more for less (excluding the big drone). One could always point and say "They're new sculpts, look better, and are more parts, and you can make 2 different units". To counter this, I'd like to say that that mainly there is no excuse for not being able to squeeze in 2 more torsos when the box practically is filled with a bunch of bits that really aren't needed. They're nice but not needed. The abundance of pulse pistols are redundant when they're not an upgrade but instead a bit for flair, and the 8 different "buck shot" bits take up space that could easily allow for the 2 torsos. There are other redundant bits that could be used to add in a few more backpacks without any real harm. This drives home the question, "Why only 10 fire warriors instead of 12" and the answer is obvious, "more money". Whilst you'd be getting the same amount of product in realty, they decide to make you have to buy another box of fire warriors, and even then you're left with extras, (or makes you buy 2 torso bits off ebay). Now I frankly find this annoying, but it's clearly a bother forced upon us.

Another point I touched on up above but didn't really attack was that you can make "two different units" with the box. This is true, but completely unnecessary. Look at pathfinders, which can be used either as ranged fire support with heavy weapons teams, or can be used for markerlight support. Sure Path finders may not be perfect at those roles, but for 37$ you get a box that has options in one unit. Compare this to fire warriors and breachers and please tell me why it's unreasonable for the shotgun to just be another weapon choice for fire warriors. This frankly seems more reasonable to me, but instead they make a new unit. This is done for the obvious reason of forcing players to buy the box if they want the new unit, whilst also giving an excuse to force more bits into the box that you will have to pay for without really giving you more usable content.

Now, really what I dislike here more than anything is that this box is frankly not friendly to new players. When your basic infantry, which is the first thing a new player will pick up, is not cheap, but instead toward the middle of your price meter, you really are deterring new players from picking up the game, or at least tau. I realize this is circumvented by the "Start now box" but this isn't really an excuse as GWs are still stocking the box of fire warriors.

In conclusion, I feel like the fact that the "start collecting" box practically makes stand alone fire warriors not even worth considering shows how poorly done this box is. Compared to pathfinders (which is an excellent box IMO, one of the best "cheap" boxes) you really see just how poorly this box holds up. If the box could have justified it's price point I'd be happy, but as it stands now you get about as much usable troops as you do from the pathfinder box for less, while also taking what could have been a much needed (and desired) thing like new weapons for fire warriors, and doing it in a way that pretty much makes it seem less like a quality of life change and instead a push for more sales. The 10 dollar jump for crisis suit's price was justified because the new box added more to crisis suits, made them less static, and really impressed with sculpts and options not yet seen (iridium armor, all the drone upgrades, an actual bonding knife, different body types, the ability to pose them) whilst the upgrades from the fire warrior box seem far less well done, and far less impressive for a higher price hike.

TL: DR
I feel like the new box really could have justified it's cost in a real way good way, but in truth it brings about the same versatility as pathfinders (Which are cheaper) for a marked up price. Breachers shouldn't be a stand alone unit when fire warriors with carbines aren't, and the only excuse for lowering the model count is to put the buyer in a bad spot where need to pay more to "Complete" what they bought.

Welcome to Games Workshop, where we charge things not by how much consumers will buy them or by the amount of plastic, but by whatever we feel like at the time!

Seriously though, a lot of things shouldn't be priced the way they are. The reason it's higher than the Pathfinders is because the Pathfinders was released over a year ago.

If you need a good example, look at the vanguard veterans and the new Assault Marines. At one point the new assault marines were MORE expensive than the Vanguards, despite everything saying the opposite should be true. And both are hilariously expensive when compared to the Death Company and Sanguinary Guard, which comes with basically the same stuff, but is 20% cheaper (at least in canada).

The reason they do this is because their old tactic was to do yearly price hikes. This ended up not sitting well with anyone and after several disorganized protests (mostly ineffectual boycotts) GW decided to stop doing them, but instead just raise prices on anything new. It's just another part of the problem with their central pricing.

So everybody here is an expert at pricing, not just upset because the kit got better and therefore got a price increase?

Know why the "Start collecting" box is a cheap and amazing deal? Because it's a starter, that's why.

While the fire warriors case they did get better (but then again it's not hard, since those sprues were a 3rd edition vintage), the examples I listed did not. If anything there was actually less detail on the most expensive set (the Assault Marines) compared to the cheapest (the Sanguinary Guard).

Have you bought the new assault marine kit? It's heads and tails above the old one. it also has more options and plastic parts then the previous kit.

sanguinary guard have a very limited bits selection in each box compared to the new assault marines kit. To me( and apparently a lot of SM players in my LGS community) it's worth it.

I have both actually (and I'm planning on getting some DCs soon).

The only reason I got the Assault Marine kit was because a local store had them on sale for the same price as Sang Guard kits. And even then I still feel kinda ripped off.

die toten hosen wrote:
So everybody here is an expert at pricing, not just upset because the kit got better and therefore got a price increase?

Know why the "Start collecting" box is a cheap and amazing deal? Because it's a starter, that's why.

One of my big points is that it got better in a way that did little actual good. Adding new bits for a unnecessary new unit that could of easily and been just "striker team with shotguns', whilst also going out of there way to lower the models per box really isn't great. The upgrades they did like redoing the sculpts was good, but they also did so much extra stuff that's not needed that only serves to make you buy far more than needed.

The old Fire Warriors kit had 12 infantry plus two Gun drones and was released in 2001.

Unless the latest codex has changed radically, a standard FW squad is 6 to 12 Tau, and a Devilfish can carry 12 figures. Drones can be added to the squad but if you want to do this a standard configuration would be 10 FW and two drones, to carry them all in the Devilfish. GW therefore seem to have assumed that players will normally want to deploy FW squads in 10s with drones and Devilfish.

Again, I am not familiar with the latest codex. In the old days days it wasn't worth equipping either gun or shield drones in terms of cost/benefit, but that may have changed with marker drones and such now being available and other rules changes.

All that being said, it would have been nicer if the kit had 12 FW and the three drones and this would not have added much cost if any, and if it had, perhaps they could have increased the kit price a little bit.

The end result is that if you want FW squads of 12, you are screwed.

I don't think GW have a magnificent moustache twirling of evil planning department who try to work out ways of screwing and annoying players in stupid ways. Sometimes it kind of looks like they do, but actually I think they just don't think these things out from the wargamer's point of view.

You can get the new FW team kit on UK eBay for £22.50.

So if you were thinking about Tau ever, is now a good time to clear out the old flgs of dated Fire Warrior boxes?

I would just buy a Pathfinder kit and Farsight Enclave shoulder pads
it still works out cheaper than the new kit

If I was starting out, I would consider buying several old style boxes and one new style to use for unit leaders.

commander dante wrote:
I would just buy a Pathfinder kit and Farsight Enclave shoulder pads
it still works out cheaper than the new kit

Frankly, I just buy a starter box, and extra torsos off bit's shops (sometimes I get pathfinder torsos because I like diversity in my units), and since I've and endless pile of old fire warrior legs, and the box comes with 3 extra legs, I'm practically golden.

Really, the reason is it's a dual kit now, so you get an extra set of shoulders, heads, and arms/weapons that you pay for but can't use simply because they didn't include that extra set of legs/torsos. Yea, it's sucky and wasteful.

Does it still have 10 models? Yes? Lucky you.

Dire Avengers increased a bit but they dropped to 5 models per box instead of 10... Lucky for me I grabbed all the 10 model box on the shelf when that happened.

Yeah, I think this kit crosses the line from "tons of parts for options" to "we aren't giving you enough torsos to use the parts we're giving you".

Why sell you 12 models for 37 when they can sell you 10 for 50 and make you buy another 5 boxes so you can get those 12 man squads.

 TheWaspinator wrote:
Yeah, I think this kit crosses the line from "tons of parts for options" to "we aren't giving you enough torsos to use the parts we're giving you".

The Mucolids and Tyrannocyte would like a word with you

EDIT: Normally I'm the first to criticize GW for things but I think in this case they were trying to standardize things, since other armies tend to field units in multiples of 5, not 6. 12 is just a legacy thing for people who had the old boxes. The next update might see them drop down to 10 man squads or 20 man squads.

The point of different codexes for different armies is for different armies to be different.

It's less about diversity and more for practicality, since it's easier to count multiples of 5 or 10 for us.

If they really wanted to be unique with tau, it should be 8 or 16, since their counting system is based around 8, not 6, 10 or 12. (although I suppose 12 is slightly understandable, but that'd be like if our tactical squads are full at 15 men)

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The point of different codexes for different armies is for different armies to be different.

and yet Tau still get considerable hate for playing a different game than the rest of the 40k universe. Focusing on shooting while avoiding CC is apparently a vastly different thing than shooting while getting into CC.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The old Fire Warriors kit had 12 infantry plus two Gun drones and was released in 2001.

Unless the latest codex has changed radically, a standard FW squad is 6 to 12 Tau, and a Devilfish can carry 12 figures. Drones can be added to the squad but if you want to do this a standard configuration would be 10 FW and two drones, to carry them all in the Devilfish. GW therefore seem to have assumed that players will normally want to deploy FW squads in 10s with drones and Devilfish.

Some places are still selling the old Fire Warrior kit as well as the new one. Additionally, they DID change the numbers but only for the new unit.

Remember that the "old" Fire Warriors with Pulse Carbines or Pulse Rifles are now "Strike Teams". Those start at 5 models and can add up to 7 additional to go to your old total of 12. Additionally, they can still take 2 Drones and a DS8 Tactical Support Turret as a new option. The entire unit can take a TY7 Devilfish.

Then the new Fire Warrior box also can build "Breacher Teams", which are 5 models base and can take up to 5 more for a total of 10. Add in 2 Drones, Turret, and TY7 Devilfish for flavoring.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 carldooley wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The point of different codexes for different armies is for different armies to be different.

and yet Tau still get considerable hate for playing a different game than the rest of the 40k universe. Focusing on shooting while avoiding CC is apparently a vastly different thing than shooting while getting into CC.

Tau get considerable hate not for "playing a different game than the rest of the 40k universe" but for their rules allowing them to basically ignore every rule in the main rulebook.
Shooting attacks requiring LOS? Not for Smart Missile Systems!
Cover ruining your day? Pft, Markerlights!
Weapons allowing some kind of save? Hah, nope! Markerlights while a weapon allow no save.
Overwatch puts you at a low BS unless you have some Formation special rule? Nope! Markerlights!
Units can only Overwatch once? Yup--but friendly units nearby can join in for more fun, and Battlesuits get to participate as well!


With one or two of those things in effect, it wouldn't be such a big deal for most people--but it all fits together in such a way that it causes the opposing player to feel like the game is stacked from turn one. I've been taking it as a challenge after getting grumpy a few times, instead just always bringing along at least two Chapter Masters in my Raven Guard detachment so that any units with Markerlights just get Orbital Striked immediately.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's less about diversity and more for practicality, since it's easier to count multiples of 5 or 10 for us.

Multiplying by sixes is no more difficult than multiplying by fives if you are used to it, and you generally just memorise the price of commonly used units rather than recalculating them every time you write a list. GW's obsession with making everything a multiple of five is already screwing point costs, I don't want it to mess around with unit selection.

If they really wanted to be unique with tau, it should be 8 or 16, since their counting system is based around 8, not 6, 10 or 12. (although I suppose 12 is slightly understandable, but that'd be like if our tactical squads are full at 15 men)

I have seen this stated several times but have never seen it supported with any evidence. Where is it stated that they use base eight?

 the Signless wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's less about diversity and more for practicality, since it's easier to count multiples of 5 or 10 for us.

Multiplying by sixes is no more difficult than multiplying by fives if you are used to it, and you generally just memorise the price of commonly used units rather than recalculating them every time you write a list. GW's obsession with making everything a multiple of five is already screwing point costs, I don't want it to mess around with unit selection.

If they really wanted to be unique with tau, it should be 8 or 16, since their counting system is based around 8, not 6, 10 or 12. (although I suppose 12 is slightly understandable, but that'd be like if our tactical squads are full at 15 men)

I have seen this stated several times but have never seen it supported with any evidence. Where is it stated that they use base eight?

Original Tau codex from 3rd edition had a Magus Biologis speculating/stating that they used base 8 if I remember right.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 the Signless wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's less about diversity and more for practicality, since it's easier to count multiples of 5 or 10 for us.

Multiplying by sixes is no more difficult than multiplying by fives if you are used to it, and you generally just memorise the price of commonly used units rather than recalculating them every time you write a list. GW's obsession with making everything a multiple of five is already screwing point costs, I don't want it to mess around with unit selection.

If they really wanted to be unique with tau, it should be 8 or 16, since their counting system is based around 8, not 6, 10 or 12. (although I suppose 12 is slightly understandable, but that'd be like if our tactical squads are full at 15 men)

I have seen this stated several times but have never seen it supported with any evidence. Where is it stated that they use base eight?

Original Tau codex from 3rd edition had a Magus Biologis speculating/stating that they used base 8 if I remember right.

look at their hands, they've 8 digits.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 TheWaspinator wrote:
Yeah, I think this kit crosses the line from "tons of parts for options" to "we aren't giving you enough torsos to use the parts we're giving you".

The Mucolids and Tyrannocyte would like a word with you

EDIT: Normally I'm the first to criticize GW for things but I think in this case they were trying to standardize things, since other armies tend to field units in multiples of 5, not 6. 12 is just a legacy thing for people who had the old boxes. The next update might see them drop down to 10 man squads or 20 man squads.

The problem isn't standardization, it's that the kits have so much waste it's not funny.

Think about it, even if they go to ten per kit, if they simply include 10 torsos (and some number of legs) we go from being to build 10 models, to being able to build 20 models, with stuff left over still. Literally the difference of a kit twice the size is how many torsos are included in the kit and that's insane when you think about how much product you're wasting. It's worse than buying crisps and having the bag fully of air, it's like if you bought crisps, 60% of the bag was crisps, and 40% of the bag was cardboard shaped like crisps or something that weird. Blech.

Yeah, that's kind of where I was going. Alternate parts is nice, but enough parts to build entire additional figures is better.

A hobby cannot be justified so trying is a fools errand.

The real loser isnt the regular players its the horde of players they'll never profit from.

A famous businessman once said "If you want to be part of the masses, serve the classes. But if you ant to be part of the classes...serve the masses".

Games-Workshop is a British company and just doesnt get free enterpris even while they participate in it.

Some of us have horded a pretty good collection of stuff, but it isnt us they are screwing. We are already in the hobby and their models are Freaking awesome. they just are. We love the game or we'd be elsewhere RIGHT NOW.

But they have certainly blown their chance to really make the inroads with a fresh fanbase. Their idea of doing this was Age of Sigmar. that tells you all you need to know.

I meant that the unit size thing was due to them standardizing it, cuz I don't think they would have had a problem making it a 12-man box if they really wanted to.

But yeah, the whole "give you 2 sets of models but one set of legs" shenanigans is annoying as hell. In addition, it's not like they couldn't do this before. Like the Predator and Vindicator still share the same Rhino sprue. Imagine if they repackaged those together.

(oh god I really hope GW didn't see that).

They scare off new players with the prices, vets no longer recommend the game to people and there is far more competition these days.

Kits go up in price solely to gouge more money out of the remaining players who then leave because it's no longer affordable.

Oil prices haven't shot up exponentially and making molds costs the same the only reason prices keep shooting up is to cover the ever decreasing player base.

hobojebus wrote:
Oil prices haven't shot up exponentially and making molds costs the same the only reason prices keep shooting up is to cover the ever decreasing player base.

The bottom seems to be falling out of the bottom of the petroleum market actually. If GW wasnted to be cheeky, they could say that they are raising the prices of the kits so as to stay compliant with the ACA, though the ACA itself is riddled with inconsistencies.