Count's as special characters' legal?

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**Ozomoto**

Im sorry if this has been asked a million times but are counts as characters legal in all or only some settings? (assuming you have it clearly stated in your list and let your opponent know).ex. using the tau commander model with a sword and shield using the rules for far sight. If so where would this not be legal.

Google did not adequately answer my question.

**carldooley**

I don't see why not. It isn't as though you are trying to use R'aiai. . .

**MechaEmperor7000**

There will be someone who grumbles about it but if you do the following, 99% of people will accept it even in a tournament setting:

1.) You are clear with the rules about the model and explicitly state it's a count-as.

2.) The model has a close approximation of the wargear the original character had and is roughly the same size (so you can't proxy a Grot as Farsight, but another command with board and sword works)

3.) The conversion fits thematically and is suitably awesome. If you just glue a sword and shield to the base of a tau commander, even if it's technically correct people might not even let you use him as a legit Farsight. On the flip side, if you convert a Tau Fireblade on some kind of a mount doing a dynamic entry into the face of a space marine with a suitable blade, shield and is highly converted, even if it technically doesn't fit Farsight's profile most people probably won't have a problem.

**Slayer-Fan123**

That third statement is SOOOO incorrect. More people would throw a hissyfit about the Fireblade than a Crisis Suit with a glued on sword.

**Nevelon**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That third statement is SOOOO incorrect. More people would throw a hissyfit about the Fireblade than a Crisis Suit with a glued on sword.

Rule of Cool is a fuzzy subject.

The farther you get from “normal” the cooler you need to be to justify it. And it’s a very personal call to make. But if the model and paint is awesome enough, many sins can be forgiven.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Fine, maybe a broadside with a board shield and an Axe.

Idea is something that would be drastically different, but still cool enough that people will let it by.

**Raichase**

I certainly don't have a problem with it, as long as it's used in reason - and I don't see many other people I know taking issue with it. It's no different to people taking unit upgrades or vehicle upgrades that they don't bother to model.

Besides, what's to stop someone modelling their own "version" of a special character model - if I made my own Abaddon out of plastic terminator/lord bits, for example. Technically I'm not using the Abaddon model, so it's a "counts as".

I reckon apply common sense. If it looks representative of the rules you're using, then go wild.

**Iur_tae_mont**

Rule of Cool.

As long as someone is picking up what you're putting down and the model isn't designed to fudge los, it should be an issue I'd think.

**OgreChubbs**

Hate to be "that guy" but there is always a ass complaining. Dont deal with that type and you will be fine.

**Lammikkovalas**

A great example of a miniature that could be used to proxy a special character is the Dark Angels master that comes with the DV box set. I see absolutely no reason why you wouldn't be able to run this guy as Azrael himself. The Company Master has a combi-plasma (just like Azzy), a fancy-looking power sword (just like the Sword of Secrets) and an even fancier helmet (just like the Lion Helm). The only difference is that there is no Watcher to carry it for him, he is being a reasonable marine for a change and chose to wear it this time instead. You could use a Watcher from the DW terminator set instead if your opponent really demanded it but seriously, if someone has an issue with you not putting a miniature that's purely for show on the table, do you really want to be playing such people?

Spoiler:

**austinkos39316**

yeah, I run into the same problem. I like 99% of the fluff for AM, but I don't like the ratling models. No space halflings for me, everybody gets shoes. So I use catachan models, all with scopes on their lasguns to show that they are sniper rifles. They look different than the rest of my army ( which are standard cadian models) and I cleary state that the catachans are "counts as" ratlings. about 90% of people are cook with it.

**Crazyterran**

As long as it's on the same base and it's wargear is about the same, don't really care.

And in the above example, if it's suddenly harder to hide them behind terrain, I'm okay with that as well.

**nareik**

I've had the thought that the DV captain would make a good Company Master. Only caveat is it would be cool if when used in this way he had an added back banner with Azrael's personal standard on to make it even clearer who he was.

**HoundsofDemos**

As long as the wargear is correct/ identifiable and they are roughly the same size I'm good with it.

**Deadshot**

Many of 5th Ed's Codex actively encouraged it. S0ace Marines is a good example. There was a paragraph about having "Calgar" as your special snowflake character and just counting as, so it was perfectly legal. I think that stopped in 6th Ed though, again Space Marines being a great example with characters with different Chapter Tactics actively being prevented from being taken in the same army without dipping into your only allies slots.

Personally I have conversions or count-as for 8 Space Marine characters, as well as 2 characters with the official model, and planning another 2 or 3 like that. If its got reasonably close to the same equipment, its good for 99% people. For example, take an XV8 commander and add a sword, shield and plasma rifle and its good. Or take any MEQ model, give him the correct equipment from another MEQ, fancier the better, and say its X special character.

**HoundsofDemos**

Just as an aside I've never bought a true marine HQ model. I've converted everyone to save money and give myself something unique. I wouldn't begruge anyone who doesn't feel like paying 20 to 30 for the actual model when you can kit bash that guy.

**Iur_tae_mont**

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Just as an aside I've never bought a true marine HQ model. I've converted everyone to save money and give myself something unique. I wouldn't begruge anyone who doesn't feel like paying 20 to 30 for the actual model when you can kit bash that guy.

Agreed. I tend to use older Metal models or kitbashes for my Commanders just to give me something different.

**Vankraken**

The way I view it is that models are there to represent an idea in the game and the "narrative". If using the 100% official GW model for character X makes you happy then go for it. If the official GW model doesn't fulfill that job of being a good representation for your unit in the game then by all means use a different model. As long as the opponent can clearly identify what its suppose to represent and is roughly the correct size as the default model (rule of cool and modeling for advantage differ for each person's perspective). Some people might be sticklers for 100% official GW models but the vast majority of players would appreciate or at least tolerate a good looking custom model.

**Bharring**

It also matters if its a kitbash of the guy, of a counts-as who's model implies the rules/gear of the character, but is clearly someone else.

For instance, I have a kitbashed Asurmen and Baharoth. If you look at either, they clearly are those characters. Because Asurmen was fun to kitbash, and Baharoths official model looks terrible (so does Jain Zar, but my kitbash looks terrible).

On the other hand, if I wanted to make an uber Librarian for my SM (UM decendents), I'd try to make the Libby look like he was carrying the same gear Tiggy carries, and make it clear every game. But that would be counts-as, because he's not Tiggy, but uses his rules.

Either can be great, but they are very different solutions.

**carldooley**

also, a consideration. I also play tau (who knew). I have longstrike, but I prefer to model my tanks with the hatches shut. It fits my perceived background for my forces, and cuts down on the breakage in storage and transport.

The model will always stay in my bag regardless of whether or not I use his rules, but I see no problems with using its rules as I actually possess the model.

tldr: if you don't care for the model, by all means proxy. But if you make a habit of playing in GW stores or hardcore or competitive settings, having the original model (even if you choose not to use it) would mitigate any butthurt over you using a stand-in.

**Deadshot**

carldooley wrote:
also, a consideration. I also play tau (who knew). I have longstrike, but I prefer to model my tanks with the hatches shut. It fits my perceived background for my forces, and cuts down on the breakage in storage and transport.

The model will always stay in my bag regardless of whether or not I use his rules, but I see no problems with using its rules as I actually possess the model.

tldr: if you don't care for the model, by all means proxy. But if you make a habit of playing in GW stores or hardcore or competitive settings, having the original model (even if you choose not to use it) would mitigate any butthurt over you using a stand-in.

I wouldn't worry too much about whether its a GW store or not. As long as you use GW models the staff can't argue, and in most cases they encourage conversions and do many themselves. Even if its a case of "saving cash" most conversions end up at a similar cost or possibly more than official models, not to mention the extra prep time included. Example her

Vulkan model £~20
My Vulkan Conversion
Space Marine Commander £14
Grey Knight Terminators £28 (Flamer)
Grey Knights £20.50 (Halberd)
Total 62.50 (but got some Grey Knights to boot)

Shrike Conversion
Space Marine Commander £14
Warp Talons (lightning claws) 20.50
Sanguinary Guard (Jump Pack) 20.50
Total 55. Admittedly this is quite cheaper because I had the Raptors already so claws were spare, and the Pack costs me 3 plasmaguns. Even still, I hand to get new claws, which were 3.55 from Bitzbox, plus the pack would be similar price, so around £20 total. Similar to official model.

**Vankraken**

Just to add here is my list of counts as HQs and special characters I use in my armies.
Darkstrider - Made from a pathfinder with a structural analyzer made out of green stuff.
Ethereal - Made from the plastic empire battle wizard model.
Longstrike - Made from the tank commander tau from a Hammerhead kit (I strongly dislike Longstrike's model and this is the least inspired counts as).
Commander Crisis Suit- Made from a XV8 with a Paulson Games resin mech head.
Painboy x2 - Made from a Nobz kit
GK Librarian - Made from a GK Terminator Kit
Brotherhood Champion/Crowe - Made from a GK Strike Kit and a SM banner on his pack.
Ulrik - Made from a Grey Hunter kit.
Rune Priest - Made from the SM captain sprue that came in the Warriors of the Fang Box Set.
Inquisitor - Reaper miniature of a fantasy female paladin.

With all of these nobody has made the slightest fuss over them and generally every one of them is self identifying or easy to identify once pointed out. I also tend to put my character models on cork terrain to elevate them above the grunts which helps them stand out among the crowd.

**jeffersonian000**

The Grey Knight Terminator kit can be used to make every single GK TDA character model except Draigo (no Storm Shield). Bitz a Storm Shield, and you can even do Draigo. No one in my area will care that I went plastic instead of Finecast, while a few will applaud me for the conversion.

For the Tau army I'm building, I'm working on The Eight, with either character crafted from an appropriate Tau suit kit. In Farsights case, since his profite states that he is on a regular Crisis suit, not a Commander suit, I will be kit bashing a Farsight from a regular Crisis kit ... because I can.

I'd really like to field a Knight Lance or Castigator or Acheron or Atrapos, but don't really like the look of the resin Cerestus kits over the regular plastic Knight kits. So I am converting a regular Knight to have longer legs and arms, while bashing up appropriate weapons from spares ... because I can.

It's your hobby, just like it's my hobby. Make to most of it by making it yours.

SJ

**Wyzilla**

I plan to make a count-as-Azrael model sometime in the future- not a fan of the basic one and my chapter is a successor anyway.

**master of ordinance**

So long as it looks the part it goes.
Take my counts as pask - its just a spare German tank commander from a Bolt Action kit.

**Franarok**

Why not?

I use this as Huron
http://fotos.subefotos.com/9db479cddf62334c3169d9db61e485f0o.jpg

This one as Lucius
http://fotos.subefotos.com/2c7a777732e51503d3fc89d7b34306f9o.jpg

And this as Kharn (is the one more different, thinking on put a berserker head)
http://fotos.subefotos.com/0469948f5686f840a6b8809a61d32e30o.jpg

The principal is that they looks different from generic HQ and enjoy the game and the pleasure of see differents miniatures

**austinkos39316**

Vankraken wrote:
Just to add here is my list of counts as HQs and special characters I use in my armies.
.
Inquisitor - Reaper miniature of a fantasy female paladin.

With all of these nobody has made the slightest fuss over them and generally every one of them is self identifying or easy to identify once pointed out. I also tend to put my character models on cork terrain to elevate them above the grunts which helps them stand out among the crowd.

I'm about to do the same thing for my Ordo Heriticus inquisitor, kitbashing a guardsmen, a commissar and priest. I'm making him kinda undercover, so he'll look like a guardsmen with a long coat, but with his combi-melta bolter, a book, and his inquisitor seal, should be pretty cool.