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Ok, so this may be the most rules lawyery thing I've ever come across in 40k, but I'd like to see what other people think. I'm specifically talking about RAW here, and not RAI.

Runes of the Farseer says:

once per psychic phase, they may reroll any number of dice used in a single deny the witch or psychic test.

The rule says nothing about it needing to be the farseer's deny or psychic test, just that he forces the reroll. With that in mind, does that mean that a farseer can force his opponent to reroll dice on successful psychic manifestations or successful deny the witch rolls? Based on the wording of the farseer's rule alone, it would seem so. If not, please provide the rules that would prevent the farseer from rerolling opponent's dice.

once per psychic phase, they may reroll any number of dice used in a single deny the witch or psychic test.

They may reroll, therefore they have to make the roll in the first place, they can't re-roll someone elses roll. If they made the roll they may re-roll it.

harkequin wrote:

once per psychic phase, they may reroll any number of dice used in a single deny the witch or psychic test.

They may reroll, therefore they have to make the roll in the first place, they can't re-roll someone elses roll.

Would you kindly point out where it says this in the rules? Per the English language, if you roll a die, I can reach out and reroll it. It absolutely is still a "reroll" even though I didn't roll it the first time. I'm just rerolling it in your stead.

You generally can't RE-roll something you didn't roll in the first place.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Ok, so this may be the most rules lawyery thing I've ever come across in 40k, but I'd like to see what other people think. I'm specifically talking about RAW here, and not RAI.

Runes of the Farseer says:

once per psychic phase, they may reroll any number of dice used in a single deny the witch or psychic test.

The rule says nothing about it needing to be the farseer's deny or psychic test, just that he forces the reroll. With that in mind, does that mean that a farseer can force his opponent to reroll dice on successful psychic manifestations or successful deny the witch rolls? Based on the wording of the farseer's rule alone, it would seem so. If not, please provide the rules that would prevent the farseer from rerolling opponent's dice.

Is that a direct quote from the codex? What I'm seeing says the following:

Runes of the Farseer: Once in each Psychic phase, a model with this special rule can reroll any number of dice used in a single Deny the Witch test or Psychic test (potentially negating Perils of the Warp in the process).

It was paraphrased, but used the same wording. What you posted isn't any different. Still says they can reroll ANY dice, not specifying that it has to be THEIR dice.

It says any number of dice. Not ANY dice.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
It was paraphrased, but used the same wording. What you posted isn't any different. Still says they can reroll ANY dice, not specifying that it has to be THEIR dice.

You said 'this is what the rule says', not that you were paraphrasing the rule. Having said that, I see nothing explicit enough to allow you to reroll dice you didn't roll in the first place.

 Sautek Supreme wrote:
It says any number of dice. Not ANY dice.

It gives permission to reroll dice, with the only qualifier being that those dice were used in a DtW roll, or psychic roll. It doesn't say that they need to be HIS dice. The permission to reroll is there, 100% evident. The limiting factor that you're arguing for isn't, insofar as I can tell. If it is, please cite a rule saying as much.

RAW nothing happens, because your model is inanimate and can't roll anything.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
RAW nothing happens, because your model is inanimate and can't roll anything.

Yeah, I anticipated someone saying something like this that has nothing to do with the actual topic. Please troll elsewhere.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

 Sautek Supreme wrote:
It says any number of dice. Not ANY dice.

It gives permission to reroll dice, with the only qualifier being that those dice were used in a DtW roll, or psychic roll. It doesn't say that they need to be HIS dice. The permission to reroll is there, 100% evident. The limiting factor that you're arguing for isn't, insofar as I can tell. If it is, please cite a rule saying as much.

So, I have a unit that rerolls to hit dice. My opponent tries to shoot my unit. I force him to reroll his to hit dice because it doesn't specify it's -my- to hit rolls. Neat little trick.

So I think the inherent misunderstanding here is that the main rules for 40K are "permissive", meaning the rules tell you what to do, and who does want.

I think the point everyone here is trying to make is that the rule says "the model with this rule" gets to re-roll. Re-rolls are always rolls that the model in question made in in the first place, unless the rule explicitly says "the opponent" or "enemy", etc. For example, there are rules that force targets to re-roll THEIR cover saves.

In every one of those cases, the rule in question states who is re-rolling what. Therefore in this case, the FARSEER is the model with the rule and can re-roll HIS dice, not the enemy's
-------------
Bottom line here is that no one would interpret Runes as forcing enemies to re-roll successes, Might as well give up the argument

Here's an example of a rule that allows the re-rolling of an opponent's dice (emphasis added).

Venerable (Venerable Dreadnought only): If a Venerable Dreadnought suffers a penetrating hit, you can make your opponent re-roll the result on the Vehicle Damage table. You must accept the second roll, even if it is worse than the first.

Given the difference in wording, I still see nothing to allow the Runes of the Farseer to re-roll his opponent's dice. You don't re-roll dice you never rolled, you instead make your opponent re-roll them.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
RAW nothing happens, because your model is inanimate and can't roll anything.

Yeah, I anticipated someone saying something like this that has nothing to do with the actual topic. Please troll elsewhere.

You asked about the RAW when drawn to extremes in absurdum and got the RAW when drawn in absurdum. If you want to draw it even further, your Farseer would, if it weren't inanimate, be allowed to reroll dice in games it doesn't participate in, because there's no rule that stops the special rule of the Farseer from working.

Also, somewhere in the Deny rules it specifies you only get your special benefits if the unit with said benefits is the target of the psychic power. That inherently limits this to only allowing the Farseer to reroll his own Deny dice.

Plus, the rules always specify when you can force your opponent to reroll. The farseer rules do not specify this. This is not a case of "prove to me I can't do this", it's a case of "I need to prove to you that I can".

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
RAW nothing happens, because your model is inanimate and can't roll anything.

Most amusing.

However, let's stick to the topic...

 DarkLink wrote:
Also, somewhere in the Deny rules it specifies you only get your special benefits if the unit with said benefits is the target of the psychic power. That inherently limits this to only allowing the Farseer to reroll his own Deny dice.

That limit is only for modifiers, which it clearly defines as +'s and -'s to the roll.

 Galef wrote:
So I think the inherent misunderstanding here is that the main rules for 40K are "permissive", meaning the rules tell you what to do, and who does want.

I hear this statement used frequently on here, but I've yet to see any support for it in any official GW publication. Could you point out where the rules say that?

Furthermore, we DO get permission to reroll dice that were involved in a DtW or Psychic test. Nothing limits that to only your own dice. In every example people have tried to cite in comparison, we're specifically told that the reroll is our own dice. Twin-linked, units that reroll their misses in combat etc. all tell us the limiting factors. This ability doesn't add those limiting factors, much like Fateweaver is allowed to reroll any 1 dice, and it's widely accepted that these don't have to be HIS dice, using almost identical language.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
Also, somewhere in the Deny rules it specifies you only get your special benefits if the unit with said benefits is the target of the psychic power. That inherently limits this to only allowing the Farseer to reroll his own Deny dice.

That limit is only for modifiers, which it clearly defines as +'s and -'s to the roll.

 Galef wrote:
So I think the inherent misunderstanding here is that the main rules for 40K are "permissive", meaning the rules tell you what to do, and who does want.

I hear this statement used frequently on here, but I've yet to see any support for it in any official GW publication. Could you point out where the rules say that?

Furthermore, we DO get permission to reroll dice that were involved in a DtW or Psychic test. Nothing limits that to only your own dice. In every example people have tried to cite in comparison, we're specifically told that the reroll is our own dice. Twin-linked, units that reroll their misses in combat etc. all tell us the limiting factors. This ability doesn't add those limiting factors, much like Fateweaver is allowed to reroll any 1 dice, and it's widely accepted that these don't have to be HIS dice, using almost identical language.

Regardless of what you get permission to reroll, you do not get permission to roll my dice in the first place. There is a reason that seperate players roll for things. You need premission to roll my dice before you can claim to re-roll it.

harkequin wrote:

Regardless of what you get permission to reroll, you do not get permission to roll my dice in the first place. There is a reason that seperate players roll for things. You need premission to roll my dice before you can claim to re-roll it.

You have rolled for a given result. If I reach across and roll those dice for a different result, that is a re-roll. I've been given permission to re-roll deny the witch and psychic rolls. If your roll was 1 of thost 2 things, that gives me permission to reroll up to 1 of them per psychic phase.

An interesting example to note is "fleet"
By the same logic as "runes of the farseer" a unit with "fleet" would allow everyone on it's side to re-roll runs and charges, and force enemies to re-roll runs/charges

That actually wouldn't apply, because the fleet rule tells us WHEN they can use it, and that's when they are determining run or charge distances. Determining is a verb there that it requires the unit to be doing, and so can't occur on the opponent's turn. That isn't the case with bones of the farseer.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
That actually wouldn't apply, because the fleet rule tells us WHEN they can use it, and that's when they are determining run or charge distances. Determining is a verb there that it requires the unit to be doing, and so can't occur on the opponent's turn. That isn't the case with bones of the farseer.

Mate, that's a stretch.
To use your own logic, you roll your charge range, we determine that it is 10" therefore we were determining charge ranges. When determining charge ranges, i can re-roll them.

It holds up to RAW as much as runes of the farseer .


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The point being, the FARSEER re-roll ing a dice he was not rolling , is as supported as a FLEET unit re-rolling a run or charge they are not rolling

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

harkequin wrote:

once per psychic phase, they may reroll any number of dice used in a single deny the witch or psychic test.

They may reroll, therefore they have to make the roll in the first place, they can't re-roll someone elses roll.

Would you kindly point out where it says this in the rules? Per the English language, if you roll a die, I can reach out and reroll it. It absolutely is still a "reroll" even though I didn't roll it the first time. I'm just rerolling it in your stead.

DICE
Throughout a game, you will often need to roll dice to see how the actions of your models turn out

Re-roll
In some situations, the rules allow you to re-roll a dice. This is exactly what it sounds like – pick up the dice you wish to re-roll, and roll it again

The only permission to roll dice is for actions of your Models. You need to show permission for your Farseer to affect the enemy rolls, as was shown with the Venerable Dreadnought rule.

Fragile wrote:

DICE
Throughout a game, you will often need to roll dice to see how the actions of your models turn out

Re-roll
In some situations, the rules allow you to re-roll a dice. This is exactly what it sounds like – pick up the dice you wish to re-roll, and roll it again

The only permission to roll dice is for actions of your Models. You need to show permission for your Farseer to affect the enemy rolls, as was shown with the Venerable Dreadnought rule.

^^^^THIS, so much this. You are given permission to roll dice for YOUR models, not your opponents, unless SPECIFICALLY stated otherwise. And in those cases, YOU (or your model) don't do the re-rolling, but rather force your opponent to re-roll. Ergo, the Runes of the Farseer allow the Farseer to reroll the FARSEER's dice and only the dice related to the actions of the Farseer.


--

Even if this were the case, which I'm not conceding without further research, this would still allow the farseer to reroll dice from his own army's rolls, and not just his own.

All the other models in my army are, in fact, my models. So they'd still fit the bill for rolling and rerolling.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Even if this were the case, which I'm not conceding without further research, this would still allow the farseer to reroll dice from his own army's rolls, and not just his own.

All the other models in my army are, in fact, my models. So they'd still fit the bill for rolling and rerolling.

So by this logic, 1 unit with fleet in the army gives the whole army fleet?

Pure RAW doesn't work, literally, the game actually breaks down and becomes unplayable. This is one of those things where RAI is used. The Farseer re-rolls the farseer's rolls.

No, again because Fleet specifically tells us when they can do this, and limits it to when that UNIT is determining charge or run range. Such isn't the case with the farseer.

Runes of the Farseer: Once in each Psychic phase, a model with this special rule can reroll any number of dice used in a single Deny the Witch test or Psychic test (potentially negating Perils of the Warp in the process).

DICE
Throughout a game, you will often need to roll dice to see how the actions of your models turn out

Re-roll
In some situations, the rules allow you to re-roll a dice. This is exactly what it sounds like – pick up the dice you wish to re-roll, and roll it again

To take things to the full RAW, all terms defined in the rulebook must be used as they're defined in the rulebook. In this case, rolling dice is defined as dice that 'you' roll to see how the actions of 'your' models turn out.

A reroll is defined as rerolling dice, which we know means rerolling dice that 'you' rolled for 'your' models. If someone else rolls dice, then that is not defined within the scope of rules from your perspective, so you can not reroll their dice. There are specific rules that allow you to force your opponent to reroll his dice, but that still falls within the scope of a reroll only applying to the dice that you rolled.

Now, the rule in question, says that the 'model' may reroll the dice. Obviously, model can't roll dice, so to make the rule work, we infer that it means 'I' get to reroll the dice. But lets assume the model were capable of rolling dice. For the model to reroll the dice, it must have rolled dice to begin with as per RAW. So this means that it can only reroll dice for powers that the model casts. Thus we, if we're going to roll the dice in place of the model, we can only reroll the dice that we rolled for the model.

I can't tell if Betray is trolling, or just trying to obtain a "source" to quote when he tries to do this to some poor guy who mistakenly agreed to play him.