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This is something I was thinking about recently in regards to Warhammer 40K, Fantasy and now Age of Sigmar. Some say it was a reason the WHFB world was killed - because no progress could be made. GW has an obsession with writing about an inevitable losing struggle between Order and Chaos. Don't get me wrong, this is a timeless idea that goes back thousands of years in mythology. Babylon 5 did it great with the Vorlons vs Shadows. Only with them the Shadows had a reason to promote chaos. Chaos, conflict and struggle produces evolution. Survival of the fittest. They wanted progress vs the Vorlon's stagnant discipline.

But with Games Workshop is there any real point behind it? Why does Chaos want to conquer the world? Because it's Chaos and it's in their nature. What do they get out of destroying the world? We saw that at the close of the End Times books that once the world was destroyed that the Chaos gods immediately got bored and turned their attention elsewhere to new places to destroy. If that's the attitude behind the setting, who cares? Why should anyone be invested when the antagonist has no motivation other than "I'm going to destroy the world because I want to."

What do they gain out of conquering and enslaving the world? A world full of slaves? Chaos gods feed on the emotions of the living. These emotions will exist regardless of whether or not humans are free and fighting anyone and anything, or if they're slaves to the mortal followers of Chaos. If anything Chaos should want to prolong conflict, promote diversity, and keep the world alive as much as possible like they're fattening up an animal for some harvest celebration. Only this animal wouldn't be slaughtered, but would keep providing meat for eternity.

The whole "Chaos will win in the end, it's only a matter of time" limits things. Storm of Chaos gets retconned because they tried to force a change in the setting and the result didn't fit with anyone's idea of how the background says it should play out. 13th Black Crusade, same story. Nemesis Crown, even 3rd Armageddon War. Nothing changes.

Even in Age of Sigmar where they're not restricted to a single world with nations and borders, it's still all about fighting Chaos. The Mortal Realms were once free. Then Chaos came and conquered 7 of them. Now Sigmar and his marines are fighting to reclaim them. Why? Why did Chaos want them in the first place? What's with the obsession of turning mortal places into twisted, chaotic realms of insanity? Isn't that exactly the same plot of the original WHFB world? Can there not be a setting that doesn't have the overwhelming power of Chaos as the big bad in the background?

So to sum it all up, is Games Workshop incapable of creating universes outside of a war against Chaos?

In some respects AoS flips the traditional GW plot on its head because rather than the impending chaos invasion, it's this time a counter invasion by the forces of Order waging war across Chaos dominated lands.

Personally I liked the 5 minutes to midnight, and I was fine with it not advancing. I don't care about the "big players" in WHFB, AoS or 40K. I am the sort of player who likes to slot my own miniatures into the setting and concentrates on their own stories. I have been captivated by the setting of 40k and WHFB for 20 years now and it doesn't wane for me.

With regards to GW, they have settings that don't focus on the war with Chaos. Necromunda had some cultists in the bestiary but the focus was on desperate gangs trying to make it rich. Same for Mordhiem - Blood Bowl was a fantasy utopia where disputes where settled through sport - Gorkamorka was about orks and nothing much else. They have some older games like Dark Future that are about... well I have no idea really lol.

But yes, the two flagship games are about the battle against chaos and AoS continues this theme, although rather than "now is the End Times" of WHFB/40K it's more "now is the time of Revenge and kicking-ass!"

Entropy in some way shape or form is always the big bad in any fictional universe I've ever encountered once the scope gets beyond a certain size.

I've always taken Chaos to be a very literal implementation of entropy in the GW universe/s.
It's not whether or not entropy will win - because it always will on a long enough time line - it's the fight against it that makes the story.
Chaos - even more so with the addition of Skaven to the pantheon - are the enemies of order.
Not in terms of simply a faction name, but the fight to maintain the order that holds the universe in an unnatural state - of containing life.

Whether consciously or not, the Chaos pantheon are the enemies of life in the purest sense.

So I don't think GW is incapable of doing it - it's just that it's a perfect vehicle for storytelling.

Well, they did a few worldwide campaigns to advance the timelines in both 40k and WHFB... which GW didn't like the outcomes of (because the respective posterboy factions got massively pummled and the "bad guys" won by a landslide). So then suddenly they turned back the clocks or forgot that the campaign even happened.

So yeah...

 Bottle wrote:
In some respects AoS flips the traditional GW plot on its head because rather than the impending chaos invasion, it's this time a counter invasion by the forces of Order waging war across Chaos dominated lands.


But yes, the two flagship games are about the battle against chaos and AoS continues this theme, although rather than "now is the End Times" of WHFB/40K it's more "now is the time of Revenge and kicking-ass!"

This. AOS clips the narrative so good is the striking force. It establishes that ground can be gained and lost by both sides... What I think would really go a long way are more maps and designs of the realm. I feel like the bigger issue is that we don't have a good idea about what these two forces are fighting over

GW are basically retelling this one Michael Moorcock story over and over and over and over and over again. In 40K they threw some Dune and 2000AD in for spice, but it's still the same old same old.

Considering that, it's pretty impressive how much they've managed to do in the very small overall playground they've set for themselves!

The issue is, they need a backdrop in which any faction fighting any faction makes sense, or can be explained without bending the imagination too far. Chaos threatening everything creates that setting. It might not be original, but it does what it needs to do.

All of GW's game fluff backgrounds are excuse generators for having fights, pure and simple.

The purpose of the game is to have lots of different armies that might have fights, so GW can sell model kits for those armies.

 JamesY wrote:
The issue is, they need a backdrop in which any faction fighting any faction makes sense, or can be explained without bending the imagination too far. Chaos threatening everything creates that setting. It might not be original, but it does what it needs to do.

I honestly think that hurts them more than it helps. It won't ruin player's suspension of disbelieve just to have two factions who are supposed to be allies beating each other up but the cost of having the fluff in there that says they sometimes do beat each other up is making the whole overarching fluff feel forced and uninspired.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts.

I guess an issue I have is that Chaos is the be all end all baddie all the time. Every other antagonist or evil faction doesn't matter in the end.

Nagash? Nothing he did or will do matters because of Chaos. The Witch King? Who cares, Chaos wins. Skaven (pre-AoS)? All their numbers, tech and scheming won't make a difference against a billion demons from the Realm of Chaos. Orcs and Goblins? Even united under one leader they will still lose in the end because there's somehow more Chaos than them.

I guess what I'm wondering is, why does Chaos have to be the unstoppable antagonist? Nagash could have regained his power in a non-End Times narrative and threatened the whole world with extinction. The Dragon-Emperor of Cathay could have declared a holy crusade against the Old World and sent his legions a la the Imperial Order from Sword of Truth. Even the freakin' Hobgoblin Khanate which is rumored to be the largest and most powerful mortal force in the Warhammer world could have invaded like the Mongols did.

GW could have done so much more with their world had they not limited themselves to Chaos having to destroy the world in order for the story to have a meaningful end.

There is certainly an appeal to the idea of an inevitable, unstoppable bad guy who will one day destroy everything and all the good guys can do is fight it back generation after generation to simply prolong the inevitable.

GW don't seem to have the quality of writing necessary to make chaos that threat though.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
The issue is, they need a backdrop in which any faction fighting any faction makes sense, or can be explained without bending the imagination too far. Chaos threatening everything creates that setting. It might not be original, but it does what it needs to do.

I honestly think that hurts them more than it helps. It won't ruin player's suspension of disbelieve just to have two factions who are supposed to be allies beating each other up but the cost of having the fluff in there that says they sometimes do beat each other up is making the whole overarching fluff feel forced and uninspired.

I suppose that's an unavoidable consequence of a gaming company wanting to produce literature as a saleable product, and not wanting to break their comfort zone. Would no fluff be preferable? It isn't actually necessary to the game.
Changing it up and having Nagash as the primary threat and chaos more of a background menace would have worked. Archaon walking away from the chaos gods and becoming sigmar's ultimate champion would have been a great twist.

Any fantasy or SF game needs a small amount of fluff to give the rules some kind of context or flavour.

 Bottle wrote:
In some respects AoS flips the traditional GW plot on its head because rather than the impending chaos invasion, it's this time a counter invasion by the forces of Order waging war across Chaos dominated lands.

Yet totally nullifies it by making the realms infinite and the war unwinnable for either side.
Good reclaims a city? Well done, but there's still infinity more to go. Good took heavy casualties? Doesn't matter, they respawn.
Bad reclaims a city? Well done, but there's still infinitely more to go. Bad took heavy casualties? Doesn't matter, they are infinite in number.

When you've got the ressurectable fighting the infinitely replaceable over infinite territory, there's no risk, reward or drama.

At least in the 2-minutes-to-midnight set-up, there was some tension that something might happen (like a city falling to chaos, or turning on their neighbours), and that something might make some kind of difference in the grand scheme of things.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Any fantasy or SF game needs a small amount of fluff to give the rules some kind of context or flavour.

I completely agree, I was meaning that if someone felt it was affecting the actual game, it really doesn't need to.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
All of GW's game fluff backgrounds are excuse generators for having fights, pure and simple.

And this, good people, is the proverbial /thread.

The problem seems to me to be less that Chaos can't ultimately be defeated because that's the wrong way to understand it and more that despite everything the company wants to progress the story rather than simply expand the setting.

Progression of a story implies a beginning, a middle and an end (as I think the Red Queen said to Alice.)

Since GW never want to end their story, at best we will left in a perpetual middle.

 Bottle wrote:
In some respects AoS flips the traditional GW plot on its head because rather than the impending chaos invasion, it's this time a counter invasion by the forces of Order waging war across Chaos dominated lands.

so........ it's just a fantasy rehash of the great crusade then is it not? not really original at all if you think about it, imho gw's so called attempts originality in age of sigmar are just copies of other stuff even their own ip, *cough*fantasyspacemarines*cough*
don't get me wrong though I dislike the whole chaos always wins thing as it's boring, what's the point in opposing it if it's going to win anyways.
plus my view isn't helped by the fact that most of the chaos players I have encountered are whiny, entitled and have extreme ego problems

 Glasdir wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
In some respects AoS flips the traditional GW plot on its head because rather than the impending chaos invasion, it's this time a counter invasion by the forces of Order waging war across Chaos dominated lands.

so........ it's just a fantasy rehash of the great crusade then is it not? not really original at all if you think about it, imho gw's so called attempts originality in age of sigmar are just copies of other stuff even their own ip, *cough*fantasyspacemarines*cough*
don't get me wrong though I dislike the whole chaos always wins thing as it's boring, what's the point in opposing it if it's going to win anyways.
plus my view isn't helped by the fact that most of the chaos players I have encountered are whiny, entitled and have extreme ego problems

Honestly, it pretty much is. An immortal God-King (Emperor) sees that the eight realms (galaxy) are subjugated and must be freed. So he creates his army of super human warriors, the chambers (legions) of Stormcast Eternals (Space Marines) to reconquer the realms (galaxy).

Though I've known this to be true since the beginning, I didn't even think of it for my original discussion about using Chaos as a crutch for everything. So would this be a double crutch now? A pair of crutches for GW to stumble along the wargaming scene with?

I fully expect there to be Fallen Stormcast eventually who get corrupted by Chaos.

It's not meant to literature, it's just to give a bit of background reason for having fights.

Perhaps that is why it's not been as well received as it could have been?

 jonolikespie wrote:
Perhaps that is why it's not been as well received as it could have been?

That's really just one of the reasons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


It's not like even the Stormhosts bear striking similarities to the more famous SM Chapters

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Perhaps that is why it's not been as well received as it could have been?

That's really just one of the reasons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoiler:

 Pojko wrote:

 Glasdir wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
In some respects AoS flips the traditional GW plot on its head because rather than the impending chaos invasion, it's this time a counter invasion by the forces of Order waging war across Chaos dominated lands.

so........ it's just a fantasy rehash of the great crusade then is it not? not really original at all if you think about it, imho gw's so called attempts originality in age of sigmar are just copies of other stuff even their own ip, *cough*fantasyspacemarines*cough*
don't get me wrong though I dislike the whole chaos always wins thing as it's boring, what's the point in opposing it if it's going to win anyways.
plus my view isn't helped by the fact that most of the chaos players I have encountered are whiny, entitled and have extreme ego problems

Honestly, it pretty much is. An immortal God-King (Emperor) sees that the eight realms (galaxy) are subjugated and must be freed. So he creates his army of super human warriors, the chambers (legions) of Stormcast Eternals (Space Marines) to reconquer the realms (galaxy).

Though I've known this to be true since the beginning, I didn't even think of it for my original discussion about using Chaos as a crutch for everything. So would this be a double crutch now? A pair of crutches for GW to stumble along the wargaming scene with?

I fully expect there to be Fallen Stormcast eventually who get corrupted by Chaos.

It's not like even the Stormhosts bear striking similarities to the more famous SM Chapters

Agreed, when I first saw the sigmarine legions I though the gold ones were a total copy of the celestial lions chapter's colour scheme, the stormcast even utilise a ton of lion iconography, just like the celestial lions. The sigmarines even stole the celestial bit from them what with them being from the celestial realm of azyr and all.

GW have borrowed so extensively from historical and SF/Fantasy sources in the past that it doesn't make any practical difference whether we say they now borrow again from the same sources or from their own earlier borrowings. It's all the same.

I just think the Sigmarines are fairly pointless because we already have Space Marines with similar characteristics and fluff, working within a fairly similar game system. It would have been more diverse and interesting to make some other new idea for the new game. But I also think the AoS rules were a lost opportunity to do something new and different.