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[I thought you guys might enjoy this!]

So, I've watched a few different play-throughs of Undertale, and the game presents us, of course, with a plurality of adorable and positively relatable characters. At first glance, who can't help but love Toriel (as Pewdiepie calls her, "base mom") with her motherly (albeit overprotective) instincts? Who can't help but take delight in the comic stylings of sans, or feel anything but goodwill for the utterly friendly Papyrus? Who can't help but pity Alphys, Mettaton and Asgore? And to an extent, isn't even Flowey "deserving" of our pity? And if you are cold-hearted enough to go through the genocide run, doesn't the figure of Sans fill us with utter regret and sorrow when he appears at the end to bleed?

And yet they all deserve to die. I shall here enumerate their crimes:

Toriel: False imprisonment and battery with potentially lethal force.

Papyrus: Kidnapping, false imprisonment and battery.

Undyne: Attempted murder.

Alphys: Crimes against humanity (well, crimes against monstrosity, at any rate). How are the actions of Alphys any better than the actions of Dr. Mengele?

Mettaton: dangerous homicidal kill-bot.

Asgore: Serial murder, attempted murder and conspiracy to genocide. In effect: war crimes/crimes against humanity.

The crimes of Flowey speak for themselves, as do the crimes of Muffet.

"But surely," you will tell me, "Sans is innocent!" Is he? Yes, it is true, Sans doesn't attack the main character except in apparent self-defense in the genocide run...because he promised Toriel that he wouldn't. That's the only reason.

Sans is quite possibly the most wicked, evil character in the entire game. I can pity Asgore, stricken with grief over the death of his adopted human child and the murder of his son, who in a moment of blind rage and grief commands something that he later comes to regret and is willing to carry out only with great reluctance and heaviness of heart, solely in order to keep the hope of his subjects alive...granted, of course, that this makes Asgore no less deserving of death...nonetheless, however, I can pity him.

I cannot pity Sans.

"Were it not for that, you would be dead where you stand." He does, of course, pass it off as a joke. The fact remains, however, that there are six dead humans in Asgore's castle, and Sans is the first monster to greet you outside of the ruins. Why would Toriel ask Sans to protect the human? But let's ignore that for a moment.

Despite the fact that he promises to protect the human, it's apparent that he carries through with his promise only with great reluctance and carelessness. He practically tries to give the human away to Papyrus. He feigns sleep when Undyne pursues the human. How do I know that he feigns sleep? Because when you go to look for him afterwards, he's conveniently disappeared.

Sans has knowledge of the save system and of the human's fate, as is evident in the final fight with him. "You haven't died once!" he says to the main character. Why? Combined with his subsequent comments, his motives are only too clear: his words are intended to be have the undertones of cutting mockery. He wishes to mock and terrorize the human: "You are only alive because I promised Toriel; but for that, I would have killed you myself at first sight. Don't worry, though, human, others will do my job for me, and I'll enjoy every minute of it. In fact, I am only too happy that you can save. That's more of your deaths to give me to delight." Sans isn't innocent. The storyline makes it clear that he is complicit and has knowledge of every little bit of the governments anti-human activities, including the crimes against humanity committed by Alphys. Apart from the promise he made to Toriel, the character of Sans would no different from that of a "friendly" neighborhood Waffen SS stormtrooper.

Let's take a moment to consider the zeitgeist of the underground: because of the crimes of a certain number of humans, Asgore decides to murder any human he can come across, with the further purpose of exterminating all humans.

And in the entire underground, at least among the major characters, there are only two who are innocent of his plans:

1. Toriel, who leaves in disgust
2. Papyrus, who clearly just doesn't have a clue.

We may leave aside for a moment, of course, the question of the shopkeepers and certain minor characters. We can also ignore, of course, the young boy who follows the main character around.

Aside from that? The fact that monsters randomly attack the main character speaks for itself (except, of course, for the monsters who obviously have no real combat effectiveness and aren't trying to harm the main character; consider, e.g., Whimsum and Froggit). They are guilty, at the very least, of conspiracy to genocide.

If Judge Dredd fell into the underground, he would, I think, leave a long, dusty trail of dead monsters behind him on his way out.

And he'd save the last three rounds of his lawgiver for Sans, Asgore and Flowey.

In all fairness, he might not kill Toriel and Papyrus. Toriel's crimes are mitigated by her desire to preserve the life of the main character, and Papryus' crimes are mitigated by his sheer ignorance and lack of malicious intent.

Still, he would be in the right to kill either. Well intentioned or not, false imprisonment is false imprisonment, kidnapping is kidnapping, etc.

If that's enough for Papyrus to deserve to die then there sure are a lot of folks working for first world governments who deserve to die as well.

I just used that as the simplest example, since you're likely just someone who places the lives of monsters beneath those of humans. Just like how many groups of humans see other groups of humans. In that you decree they deserve a death sentence for actions that wouldn't warrant a death sentence if they were performed by your family and friends.

Heck, the humans who attacked the prince would deserve to die according to you.

EDIT: was that too much? Sorry, I just came from /tg/ and was still in aggressive semi-roleplay mode.

 Lotet wrote:
If that's enough for Papyrus to deserve to die then there sure are a lot of folks working for first world governments who deserve to die as well.

I just used that as the simplest example, since you're likely just someone who places the lives of monsters beneath those of humans. Just like how many groups of humans see other groups of humans. In that you decree they deserve a death sentence for actions that wouldn't warrant a death sentence if they were performed by your family and friends.

Heck, the humans who attacked the prince would deserve to die according to you.

EDIT: was that too much? Sorry, I just came from /tg/ and was still in aggressive semi-roleplay mode.

Nah, by his logic every crime is punishable by death apparently.

Traditio wrote:

If Judge Dredd fell into the underground, he would, I think, leave a long, dusty trail of dead monsters behind him on his way out.

And he'd save the last three rounds of his lawgiver for Sans, Asgore and Flowey.

In all fairness, he might not kill Toriel and Papyrus. Toriel's crimes are mitigated by her desire to preserve the life of the main character, and Papryus' crimes are mitigated by his sheer ignorance and lack of malicious intent.

Still, he would be in the right to kill either. Well intentioned or not, false imprisonment is false imprisonment, kidnapping is kidnapping, etc.

I'm just not sure if this is the right forum for your crossover fan fic.

Except counter to popular belief, Judge Dredd's first act is not execution.
If one were to read 2000AD, one would find that he does, in fact, take prisoners.
What he is known for that is accurate is his strict, almost fanatical adherence to the law. No compromises.

Also, in what part of the world is kidnapping a capital offense? The only cases where it calls for a death sentence is when the victim dies or when people die in the process of kidnapping, at which point it becomes murder.

Wow Traditio, you're trying so hard that you're posting this on multiple boards fishing for a reaction? Or is this just copy-paste?

 curran12 wrote:
Wow Traditio, you're trying so hard that you're posting this on multiple boards fishing for a reaction? Or is this just copy-paste?

Two.

I put it on two boards. My thinking was that both boards contained probably contained a large number of people who've actually seen or played the game and would be interested in reading the OP.

your right

Traditio wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Wow Traditio, you're trying so hard that you're posting this on multiple boards fishing for a reaction? Or is this just copy-paste?

Two.

I put it on two boards. My thinking was that both boards contained probably contained a large number of people who've actually seen or played the game and would be interested in reading the OP.

You posted something with a click bait title and you forced your conclusion. It's what I expect from someone like Game Theory, where he makes some good points that support his theory and some bad points but the click bait title needs to rely on the viewer not letting the bad or outright wrong points get in the way of whatever subversive subject is trying to be said.

So, you'd rather murder everyone than resolve everything peacefully and amicably? You should try out for the Arbites or the Judges. I'm sure they'd love you there.

Let me post some counterpoints.

Toriel: She is the sovereign ruler of the monster kingdom and you are trespassing on their land. Not to mention that she is trying to protect you from the very real possibility of being killed horribly.

Papyrus: You are trespassing on sovereign soil and legally he can imprison you. You think that if you went into another country illegally the people who arrest you should be killed?

Undyne: See above. You are a sworn enemy of the state and she can take you down with lethal force. This

Alphys: She had noble intentions and didn't mean to turn the monsters into... those things. Mengele took a fetishistic pleasure in mangling his victims. Imprisonment for criminal neglect? Probably. Death? No...

Mettaton: Mettaton was trying to save humanity from Asgore. He thought you were going to die and give him the power to exterminate humanity.

Asgore: Asgore wanted to save his people from an unjust sentence. He is more weak willed than actually evil. Hell, if a human did what Asgore was trying to do he'd probably be seen more as a hero. He really should go to prison for his crimes but.. ehh, he doesn't seem like he is going to do it again so what's the point?

Muffet: She was trying to defend her people from what she thought was a spree killer. When she realizes you haven't hurt any spiders she lets go with no questions asked.

Sans: I would argue that we aren't seeing what Sans did protect you from so it makes him seem like he didn't do anything to protect you. Maybe that's why so many coincidences aligned to the players benefit.


Your argument is very human-centric in morality. If a monster so much as punches a human it is deserving of death. Monsters have no right to defend themselves nor their own homeland. Humans can commit any crimes they want against monsters and it is alright.

 toasteroven wrote:
I'm just not sure if this is the right forum for your crossover fan fic.

But Judge Dredd has DETERMINATION!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lotet wrote:

Traditio wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Wow Traditio, you're trying so hard that you're posting this on multiple boards fishing for a reaction? Or is this just copy-paste?

Two.

I put it on two boards. My thinking was that both boards contained probably contained a large number of people who've actually seen or played the game and would be interested in reading the OP.

You posted something with a click bait title and you forced your conclusion. It's what I expect from someone like Game Theory, where he makes some good points that support his theory and some bad points but the click bait title needs to rely on the viewer not letting the bad or outright wrong points get in the way of whatever subversive subject is trying to be said.

It was a little click bait, I suppose.

Looking back on it, I think my arguments against Papyrus and Toriel are tenuous at best. I still think that lethal force is in principle licit against both of them: Papyrus may not have even the slightest clue about Asgore's evil plans, but for the human, being captured means being murdered. And Toriel is using potentially lethal force to imprison the main character.

That said, neither of them really deserves to die. Papyrus intends no harm to the human, and probably thinks that he's just imprisoning the human long enough so that Asgore can throw him a party or something. And Toriel is basically like Schindler.

I also further admit, based on arguments from people made on the other site on which I posted this thread, that my arguments about Sans probably aren't accurate. Sans is extremely complicated.

I still stand by my arguments about Undyne, Mettaton and Asgore, as well as Muffet.

I grant that I had Alphys wrong with respect to the Dr. Mengele accusation, but there still stands the distinct possibility of her re-programming Mettaton to be a human extermination robot.

And let's not forget the 6 dead humans in Asgore's castle. To my mind, their blood cries out for VENGEANCE! Heads must roll. Monsters must DIE!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Except counter to popular belief, Judge Dredd's first act is not execution.
If one were to read 2000AD, one would find that he does, in fact, take prisoners.
What he is known for that is accurate is his strict, almost fanatical adherence to the law. No compromises.

I'm aware of all of this. However, do consider the following:

1. The monsters are not humans and are not citizens of Mega-City 1. As such, they are fit to be dealt with according to the laws applicable to robots, mutants, animals, etc.

Consider the fact that, in the Cursed Earth series, Dredd says that if he finds that Tweak the alien has killed anyone, he'll gladly kill Tweak himself.

Consider also the fact that in one story, Dredd sentences Walter to jail-time for throwing a pie at a perp who was about to kill Dredd, thereby saving Dredd's life.

I'm pretty sure that he would have no problem killing Asgore. What type of lawgiver ammunition would he use to do it? One can only speculate.

2. It's not just like they committed the crimes in question and then went about their day. They are actively threatening the main character with lethal force.

If Undyne threatened Dredd with a magic spear, she'd have an AP round between the eyes before she could even finish conjuring the spear...

...and the sight of Undyne's dead body would fill Dredd with DETERMINATION.

Also, in what part of the world is kidnapping a capital offense? The only cases where it calls for a death sentence is when the victim dies or when people die in the process of kidnapping, at which point it becomes murder.

As I argued on the other forum, liberty is a good equivalent to life; as such, kidnapping constitutes a capital offense, at least in principle.

Mettaton was never a human kill-bot. Dr. Alphys actually faked not only that but pretty much all of the puzzles in Hotland. She did it to make herself look good when she "saves you". It's why she's my least favorite character.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Mettaton was never a human kill-bot. Dr. Alphys actually faked not only that but pretty much all of the puzzles in Hotland. She did it to make herself look good when she "saves you". It's why she's my least favorite character.

I raised this point on the other website, and it bears repeating:

Let's assume that she's lying. Who would lie about that?

"Hey, dude, I BUILT AUSCHWITZ!"

Who does that?

Did you actually pay attention to the story? Mettaton explains to exactly why Dr. Alphys concocted this story. She wanted to be a hero for saving you from the killer robot and helping you on the puzzles. She did this to boost her self-esteem.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Did you actually pay attention to the story? Mettaton explains to exactly why Dr. Alphys concocted this story. She wanted to be a hero for saving you from the killer robot and helping you on the puzzles. She did this to boost her self-esteem.

Mettaton was telling the truth? I wasn't really clear on that.

Either way, the fact remains that Alphys programmed Mettaton to place you in reasonable and serious apprehension of lethal threats to your life. That merits turning Mettaton into a pile of scrap metal, and Alphys into a corpse.

Not to mention, of course, the very real danger presented by Mettaton basically hiring hit men to take you out.

Yeah. I stand by what I said: Mettaton and Alphys both need to die.

While I have little to say regarding this interesting debate, thought I'd mention to everyone that not everyone who has read this might have completely finished the game yet. If there's any very big spoilers, it might be a good idea to put them in... well... spoilers.

Right, as you were then.

Traditio wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Did you actually pay attention to the story? Mettaton explains to exactly why Dr. Alphys concocted this story. She wanted to be a hero for saving you from the killer robot and helping you on the puzzles. She did this to boost her self-esteem.

Mettaton was telling the truth? I wasn't really clear on that.

Either way, the fact remains that Alphys programmed Mettaton to place you in reasonable and serious apprehension of lethal threats to your life. That merits turning Mettaton into a pile of scrap metal, and Alphys into a corpse.

Not to mention, of course, the very real danger presented by Mettaton basically hiring hit men to take you out.

Yeah. I stand by what I said: Mettaton and Alphys both need to die.

What he tells you does not matter.
You can check yourself.

Answer evertything wrong during quiz, defuse no bombs, dont move at color puzzle, dont make it to the top with jetpack..

You wont die. The character is not in any danger.
You might as well kill people for "secret camera" jokes.

 Macok wrote:
What he tells you does not matter.
You can check yourself.

Answer evertything wrong during quiz, defuse no bombs, dont move at color puzzle, dont make it to the top with jetpack..

You wont die. The character is not in any danger.
You might as well kill people for "secret camera" jokes.

You can die in the Muffet fight. Mettaton put the hit out on the human.

Was it ever confirmed that it was Mettaton who did it? That wouldn't make much sense since he had an elaborate trap for the player set up like right after.

Gods you're annoying, the way you talk about Dredd makes me hate the character, bravo, I didn't know someone could be that annoying.

Like TheCustomLime said, you have a human focused view of this. What deserves death for a monster is not what warrants death for humans. What Papyrus did, what he actually did or tried to do is in no way deserving of death. Undyne and Asgore deserve death as much as every soldier who defended their homeland deserves death (unlike those who "defend" by invading), how every freedom fighter deserves death.

If monsters imprisoned humanity, if a single vicious monster was powerful enough to wipe out our entire species, if the only way we could be free would be to kill monsters then you can bet humanity would try to kill monsters. Of course, our heroes would deserve death for trying, right? If we lost a war we didn't start we don't have the right to attempt to escape, right? Of course I'm right, humanity should stay in the cave forever or be slain.

I really wonder if you agree with what you're saying or if you just like to pretend to be devil's advocate.

I would like to point out, OP, that your argument is hinged on the idea that the monsters broke the law. Not one character did anything illegal. Your argument relies on the assumption that the Monster Kingdom is not an actual state, that monsters have no rights and that any crime is a capital offense. Which doesn't make a lick of sense.

Traditio wrote:

Also, in what part of the world is kidnapping a capital offense? The only cases where it calls for a death sentence is when the victim dies or when people die in the process of kidnapping, at which point it becomes murder.

As I argued on the other forum, liberty is a good equivalent to life; as such, kidnapping constitutes a capital offense, at least in principle.

So you don't have a law to back it up then, its merely your opinion?