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Ok so, here goes. I am a wargamer, and have been for quite some time. I enjoy over the top sci-fi and fantasy. My brother is a bit more down to earth. Recently we started a hobby shop. Rc stuff, models, little craft projects. and a few boardgames. We just got the warstore as a supplier,
and I think, wow great now I can get warhammer stuff wholesale. So, my brother not really having any idea what it is that he is buying tells me to make the order.This right of the bat tells me he couldn't care less. I add frag, and werewolf, ticket to ride, munchkin, eldrich horror, X-wing, as well as the dark vengence starter for 40K.
He deletes half of these adds a ton more starwars stuff,(ok call I guess he likes starwars and it's easier to get people to play X-wing and armada.) Ok so here lies my problem. In an area where most people have never even heard of warhammer 40k and my brother having never seen the game played and finds the idea of using a tape measure in a game as stupid. I guess what I am trying to say is, how best do I drum up interest, in a game that takes as much dedication as 40k. It's not really a game you can go into half hearted it takes a lot of time and effort to do it right.
I don't really care to get into extremely competitive play but I feel as though this game will just sit on the shelves without a better push. This wouldn't be so big an issue but our store is about 50 miles from where I normally play games, where I have been working with the store owners and other gamers to try and build a community. Though at our hobby shop even though it is my own family I feel like an outsider. I also feel as though my brother just brushs the game off as just something his silly little brother does and not worth his time or effort.
Perhaps I just feel like I need some encouragement. I feel like I did when I started playing D&D in highschool. Sure I could get people to play but it felt like a lot of work to get others invested into the game.

Unfortunately your dilemma is the very problem GW has created and is struggling to come to terms with. 40k has a much higher barrier of entry than any other game currently, the rulebook and codex alone will run you a good 100 dollars and that's not even with the models you need. It's also not something that you can just play on a whim; even a smallish game of 1000 points usually require a week or so of planning beforehand to organize. It's very much a game aimed at what little veterans are left, and not all that welcoming to people new to the game or hobby.

As a store owner, I would suggest voicing your complaints with GW, since your word might have more weight than one of us complaining. I know of at least one store here who've sent GW a rather heavy-handed letter about why they're no longer stocking AoS miniatures and why they've severely cut back on their 40k stock as well, for much of the same reason (no one's interested in AoS and very few people still buy 40k minis).

For the time being, running demo games might be your best bet. DV is a good bet but maybe also one of the boxed games. Space Hulk preferably, as it's actually well designed. Deathwatch: Overkill might be good too but I haven't played it. Execution Force and Betrayer are meh at best and I wouldn't count on them luring people in. These ones are self-contained boxed games, so they're good for getting people's feet wet and if people don't feel like commiting more money to it, they aren't pressured to do so. A custom scenario would be bad, as that would make them feel boxed in to playing exactly one scenario or forking over a few hundred just to get their army playable.

I'll tell you the same thing our FLGS manager toldo us when we were trying to build a community.

"Play it and they will come" and it worked. Better than advertising for leagues and campaigns and such.

Simply Play the game in store during regular decent traffic hours and be open to lots of repetitive questions and be encourageing to get people to demo with you..try a quick low point 1 or 2 round speed game that covers basics only.

We grew our 40k comm unity at our local store from 2 to 12 (new players not vets) in about a month and a half doing this.

Also start a Store use only Codex Library.
A store owned copy of each Codex (built up over time based on interest ) of open Dexes new players and players wanting to start new things can browse before they buy.

I guess I will just have to play the game, I just built a pretty nice store board and I have a pretty good sized collection of digital codexes. Even with the small community I built were I live, there are only 5 or 6 of us. we pass armies around. Nothing is ever really in depth but we have a good time. I guess footsloggin may be the way to go about this slow and steady till it pans out.

40k is way too expensive, is horrible unbalanced,isn't a good hobby to talk about at parties and GW isn't nice to indep stores. Be glad that you got cold turkey off your plastic crack. ; )

The biggest problem may be with your store. From what I understand GW requires a huge investment to get started, and then minimum purchases going forward. They may not be willing to buy, especially if gw tells them they have to buy age of sigmar crap, which is cancer in my local area with all but 20 of the original 150 boxes still here.

He said Warstore, so E-figures. It cost a little more but he doesn't have to deal with GW's BS.

Magic still will make more money and any other models+system company has a better buy in then GW games. If I was going to carry GW products I stick with the FW board games and see how that goes before expanding the selections.

Our biggest money maker at the moment is RC cars. People don't tend to have much issue spending upwards of 600$ on a RC car. I don't much get the appeal but whatever floats your boat. We also have svezda miniatures for historic stuff, and X-wing for those with a little less cash to drop. There is interest in the game but it's not so much the after but the initial time investment. When you think about it Warhammer isn't any more expensive then any other fantasy wargame in fact in many cases it's cheaper. It's just the initial 200$ to get started that gets people. there are plenty of ways to get things quite a bit cheaper if you are creative. and a hell of a lot cheaper then a RC car let me tell you. To be honest I didn't expect as much negativity to come to this subject as it would. Hell I would just be happy to build a community of wargamers interested in playing games in general.

Oldzoggy name me one wargame that is good to talk about at parties because I will be honest I can't think of any.

your brother is right. Do not support GW!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oldzoggy wrote:
40k is way too expensive, is horrible unbalanced,isn't a good hobby to talk about at parties and GW isn't nice to indep stores. Be glad that you got cold turkey off your plastic crack. ; )

Listen to him!!!

 Toothygrin wrote:

Oldzoggy name me one wargame that is good to talk about at parties because I will be honest I can't think of any.

Risk, Diplomacy, axis and allies, hell even Battleship might result in better conversations.
You could even play them in a bar with beer and a fun group of friends.

It might also depend on your motives. Do you want to build a 40k scene in your store, or do you want access to cheaper models for yourself? When I read "and I think, wow great now I can get warhammer stuff wholesale" I immediately questioned your reasons for wanting to stock it. Perhaps your brother has the same concerns?

I wish there was a way to kick GW in the balls. But they are a corporation with loyal customers who gladly pay big money...

Let me stress this: X-Wing is a great way to bring people into wargaming. Even folks who'd have ran away at the mere prospect of being seen around "the wargaming types" fall for it. If building a strong customer base and a community is your primary concern, focus on it.

Games Workshop's games are fine, yes. I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon and deride them as "unbalanced crappy things that won't score you points at parties". But simply, if there isn't an established wargaming community in your area, don't go there. Why? Because, simply put, a wh40k or AoS army is usually a long-term project that takes years to develop. I started with 2nd edition and only a handful of miniatures, but these times are long gone. To really appreciate 40k nowadays, you need thousands of points in painted miniatures per side - Yes, it's unbalanced. Yes, it's über-geeky. But, let's be honest, 40k, when played right, is greatly immersive and visually stunning. But getting there is not easy.

Gameplay considerations aside, GW games require your customers to devote a lot of time and effort to them. Some of your customers will stick to it, but some others will get frustrated and quit along the way. By the time your core players have a playable army, they may have trouble finding opponents to play against on a regular basis. In time, even these players might get alienated too, and leave.

tl,dr? Build a community first. Focus on accesible games, and by accessibility I mean games that can be a) played "straight from the box" b) are challenging yet easy to learn c) have some popular IP behind them. Then slowly sneak the geekier things in: WMH, Infinity, Malifaux and, ultimately 40k, FoW and Historicals. But only if you have a core of regulars that want to try something new. Until then, stay on the safe side.

 Filch wrote:
I wish there was a way to kick GW in the balls. But they are a corporation with loyal customers who gladly pay big money...

Easily done. Sit in whw for a few hours. Someone important will inevitably pass through at some point...

- You're coming across as less of a businessman and more a hobbyist, I understand your brother's scepticism if that's the case. Use your precious capital to buy inventory that's already selling and add small amounts to test the waters in other stuff.

- I'd actually go for a BaC box, because that's got potential crossover with other interests and is the new hotness because of 30K etc, paint the models to the utmost of your ability (even consider a commission if you don't have great faith in your own ability) and have it set up for demos. Not only is it easier to sell someone new on, as the box contains the exact same experience they'll have with you at home with no further purchases necessary, but well painted models will make cross selling some hobby stuff much easier.

- I'm skeptical that "nobody has heard of 40K" when your profile has your location as Vermont, there's much less populated and more remote places on this planet supporting active war gaming communities. More likely you need to put in more hard yards reaching out to and connecting with those people. If there's not enough people interested nearby to support what is still the most widely played tabletop wargame on the planet, your brother definitely has the right idea.

- You need to get out of the mindset of what you want the community to be. If the locals decide to go balls out, bleeding edge meta, then that's what you need to support, regardless of your own personal feelings about the game. Again, this is thinking like a hobbyist, not a business owner.

- Allocate a period each week as a beginners session, that way you have a point of focus that will allow you to get like minded customers in the same place, at the same time, talking to each other and feeding off each other's enthusiasm.

- Take a course in child care.

JamesY wrote:It might also depend on your motives. Do you want to build a 40k scene in your store, or do you want access to cheaper models for yourself? When I read "and I think, wow great now I can get warhammer stuff wholesale" I immediately questioned your reasons for wanting to stock it. Perhaps your brother has the same concerns?

Azreal13 wrote:- You're coming across as less of a businessman and more a hobbyist, I understand your brother's scepticism if that's the case. Use your precious capital to buy inventory that's already selling and add small amounts to test the waters in other stuff.

I'm just a rando from the Internet, but it concerns me a bit that your brother doesn't take your opinion seriously. Are you co-owners on an equal footing? Partnerships are very sticky from a business perspective. Worse, going into business with family just adds a whole new level of baggage. I wish you the best of luck, but the odds are not in your favor.

I would not stock GW unless you know that customers exist. Fifteen years ago, you could take a gamble and risk losing a small investment. The landscape has changed so much for retailers carrying GW product, if you don't have a pool of known, local gamers to draw upon, I just can't see you creating a community out of thin air.

They're buying from a distributor. They can precisely do what you say with a small investment.

I would suggest setting up a few demo armies that players can use to try things out. If they like the setting, they will probably start branching out into their own army. But it's true that the barrier to entry is a real thing for 40k. The best thing that you can do is keep showcasing the game by playing it and giving people motivation to work towards something as they build their armies.

In time, you could also have players sign up for an escalation league. Maybe just up the points once a month or so to start, but you could do a 250 point week/month, then 500, 750 and 1000. By then, people will have been able to get a good sized force started up and will be invested in some prize support hopefully (GW store credit is the best prize support )

Successfully (and by that I mean profitable) selling GW product and building a community are two separate issues. I don't know much about the former so I will leave that be. But I will discuss building a successful community.

Build a good board, have awesome terrain, paint up a good army and play some games. People will see your awesome games and play. No matter how messed up GW may be in running their business, people dig cool models. When I was working in the middle East I used to paint my miniatures, people would see them and next thing you know someone who would never be described as a gamer would tell me they bought some models.

A friend and me one day played a game at a store that never had a 40K community. As people came in, people would come in and look. Next thing you know we would talk. Next week we played another game, people showed up with armies they dusted off to play. Months later multiple games are running every weekend.

You have to chat the game up, be friendly, invite people to play you. Be social, don't be TFG. Take it a step further, start a meetup group. When you get enough people going start an escalation league. Have a painting night. Run a tournament.

It will take work but it can happen. Repeat this for any game you want to build a community.

As a business, I'd focus on what will give you the best turnover/ profit ratio.
As far as I'm aware, GWs support for independent retailers isn't stellar. But if you think you might be able to get it going, I'd stick to the better value getting started sets along with the DV.

 Azreal13 wrote:
They're buying from a distributor. They can precisely do what you say with a small investment.

Can you make a small investment? What do you stock? Just SMs? I think you get into problems when you run demos, and then don't have product on the shelves to sell immediately after. So, do you just stock what you demo? What if what you demo doesn't appeal to them? Maybe you demo SMs and Tyranids, but what really pushes their buttons is shiny Space Undead Robots or Space Anime Communists? Do you send them home empty-handed because you only got a small selection from your distributor?

Again, 15 years ago you could go with GW's smallest POP selection of stuff for like $500. But there weren't a ton of online retailers offering 20% off, so there wasn't a danger of losing the guys you ran a demo for the moment they went on the Internet. They'd come back next week, and maybe you could have something on the shelves that might appeal to them now that you knew them a bit better.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's gotten a lot harder. And if you're a new business just getting into GW product, maybe that initial investment can make you more money on products that you already know sell well in your area.

Again, I would suggest stocking the boxed games first. They're cheap enough that it sounds like your customer base wouldn't mind forking over some money for them, and because they're a contained game there's no pressure or risk in stocking other models. If they're satisfied with just the base game, good. If they're interested, then maybe give them the option of placing an order with you and you put the order on the next stock shipment (that's what my local store does with weird-ass requests, like forge world items). Someone else said BaC is good, so maybe if they're interested in BaC, introduce them to some of the horus heresy novels (you can find them at book stores if you don't wanna risk that) and tell them about 30k. They can start by buying more BaC boxes while you set up a pipeline with Forge World.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Again, I would suggest stocking the boxed games first. They're cheap enough that it sounds like your customer base wouldn't mind forking over some money for them, and because they're a contained game there's no pressure or risk in stocking other models. If they're satisfied with just the base game, good. If they're interested, then maybe give them the option of placing an order with you and you put the order on the next stock shipment (that's what my local store does with weird-ass requests, like forge world items). Someone else said BaC is good, so maybe if they're interested in BaC, introduce them to some of the horus heresy novels (you can find them at book stores if you don't wanna risk that) and tell them about 30k. They can start by buying more BaC boxes while you set up a pipeline with Forge World.

Dark Vengeance is a no-brainer, but steering people towards Space Hulk or Deathwatch: Overkill makes absolutely no sense. You're asking someone to buy a $125 or $165 board game from you, even though you're demoing a tabletop game. Then, you'll have to sell them on purchasing an $85 rulebook and a $50 codex, making their first investment in the game nearly $300 before hobby supplies. If Jesus were a salesman, even he wouldn't make commission on that deal.

I suggested them because I have actually introduced 40k to a gaming club via Space Hulk.

DV is a starting point but they're gonna want other products on the shelves if they're interested, but these products can stand on their own if people are not interested in 40k. The other 40k box sets pretty much require them to have DV to use, so they're gonna sit there and collect dust until then.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I suggested them because I have actually introduced 40k to a gaming club via Space Hulk.

Introducing a gaming club to 40K via Spulk is a far cry from doing a cold demo as a retailer, trying to get customers into a game that you wish to sell.

DV is a starting point but they're gonna want other products on the shelves if they're interested, but these products can stand on their own if people are not interested in 40k. The other 40k box sets pretty much require them to have DV to use, so they're gonna sit there and collect dust until then.

Actually, I don't know how kosher this is in regards to GW trade terms, but DV boxes broken down and sold off as individual components might be the way to go. Take a small hit and price the mini-rulebooks at $15 and sell the rest of the components at cost. Custom pack some hobby starter kits that include glue, a set of sprue cutters, and a hobby knife for $10. I'm still not entirely sure it would work, though. It could be a lot of effort at minimal profit.

 the_Armyman wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I suggested them because I have actually introduced 40k to a gaming club via Space Hulk.

Introducing a gaming club to 40K via Spulk is a far cry from doing a cold demo as a retailer, trying to get customers into a game that you wish to sell.

DV is a starting point but they're gonna want other products on the shelves if they're interested, but these products can stand on their own if people are not interested in 40k. The other 40k box sets pretty much require them to have DV to use, so they're gonna sit there and collect dust until then.

Actually, I don't know how kosher this is in regards to GW trade terms, but DV boxes broken down and sold off as individual components might be the way to go. Take a small hit and price the mini-rulebooks at $15 and sell the rest of the components at cost. Custom pack some hobby starter kits that include glue, a set of sprue cutters, and a hobby knife for $10. I'm still not entirely sure it would work, though. It could be a lot of effort at minimal profit.

Not really, as the game shops run similar demos for other board games. They also help in that they're very simplified versions of 40k's rules, so that helped people ease in.

As for breaking it up, I think it's a no-no, at least one shop here had to stop doing it because GW was unhappy with the amount of battle forces it was buying and...basically nothing else that actually came in the battleforces. The shop can facilitate people getting together and buying it, but actually doing so themselves is kind of a grey area, depending on the area.

Do you have anyone that could donate you at least 2 well-painted armies?

Orks and Space Marines for example.

Do you know how to play 40k? Offer to teach people and always offer to play with them in your store.

You almost have to be a yellowshirt in a GW and do their work for them.

But it CAN be done. Only order say 4 copies of Betrayal at Clath, Space Hulk, and Deathwatch at first and maybe some start kits and offer to direct order the rest of the catalog.

 the_Armyman wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I suggested them because I have actually introduced 40k to a gaming club via Space Hulk.

Introducing a gaming club to 40K via Spulk is a far cry from doing a cold demo as a retailer, trying to get customers into a game that you wish to sell.

DV is a starting point but they're gonna want other products on the shelves if they're interested, but these products can stand on their own if people are not interested in 40k. The other 40k box sets pretty much require them to have DV to use, so they're gonna sit there and collect dust until then.

Actually, I don't know how kosher this is in regards to GW trade terms, but DV boxes broken down and sold off as individual components might be the way to go. Take a small hit and price the mini-rulebooks at $15 and sell the rest of the components at cost. Custom pack some hobby starter kits that include glue, a set of sprue cutters, and a hobby knife for $10. I'm still not entirely sure it would work, though. It could be a lot of effort at minimal profit.

Except GW trade terms take a dim view of that, and that would include buying through a distie.

Mechemperor has the right of it, SH, DW:OK, the Assassin game etc, alongside SG when they debut again potentially, are gateway products, they are exactly the sort of thing you need to draw someone in from zero experience of Warhammer or mini tabletop games in general. They require zero further investment or commitment from the customer, which is a positive when trying to close the purchase, they do however resemble the core game sufficently to act as a good stepping stone. The AoS starter is also an ideal proposition for the non wargamer who is less likely to be outraged by the issues that vets take with it.

Speaking as a sales retailer, any of those games is an easier propositon to sell than the 40K core game, but they're all ripe with potential to excite the customer to come back for more, because you'd be damn sure I'd be making references to 40K all throughout my pitch.

We're really referring to these new boxed games as gateways now? A gateway is affordable. A gateway has an accessible, easy to understand entry into a hobby. Ask a hobby retailer how easy it is peddling $150+ boardgames as gateways to 40K, especially when BaC has nothing but SMs and a Contemptor Dread which can only be found in an expensive FW rulebook and Deathwatch: Overkill which doesn't actually have a real codex for either force beyond some White Dwarf printed pages that will only be available as a digital download a few weeks from now.

The old Space Hulk, Space Crusade, and Warhammer Quest were gateway games because they were affordable, and it didn't take a bunch of mental and rules gymnastics to jam them into a game of 40K or WFB.

The old games were almost as expensive, they were just 20+ years ago!

Compare the recent all in one boxes to anything even similar in terms of box content and, while undoubtedly a premium, they're not ludicrously overpriced. The Assassinorium game was a little weak as an offering, but it was their first attempt, and the fact that the two subsequent games have offered better value and greater 40K related use can certainly be seen as positive.

Plus you seem to be defining gateway solely on price, which is not necessarily the case, they are an all in one proposition with no need for any further expense and completely self contained, you do not need to sell the cost of the rules, the codexes, the models, the paints, the glue, the basing materials etc etc.

I'm curious how you consider actual rules provided for free or a bunch of Space Marines "rules gymnastics."