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I mean realistically, SM Necrons Tau and Eldar all have their cheese and ways to beat them. Eldar just seems to have a little more options of cheese and easier access. And it's not like Eldar are dominating 100%, like Eldar armies are 1st 2nd 3rd 4th and so on. I mean sure I can kite the crap outta your troops, wound on 2's and get some D, but let's not mention free vehicles and grav spam, ignores cover or the army wide FNP. Yea I get the WK may kill 2 IK in CC, but then again 1 unit of grav can still splat a WK, or when drop pod Melta melts all my tanks turn 1, or when all the troops I kill come back to life. I guess I get that some of the units are rediqulously strong, but I mean sure you can complain to me for bringing my 3 units of scatbikes and warpspiders while you bring your 5 riptides and 40 markerlights

Yes, Eldar is that OP.

You'd have a stronger point if the four armies you mentioned were indeed the only options.

I think the problem isn't that Eldar as a whole is OP, but they have one very specific build that's very powerful.

I think if you took the average power of their codex's units against, say, average Necron unit power, they'd be much more middle of the road.

Eldar have incredibly strong average unit strength. If every army was similarly made the game would be in a much better place.

Are you going to pull a dman137 and argue that eldar are in no shape or form overpowered and imbalanced?

Ha-ha nah I agree some things they have are op, but other armies do have some op stuff as wellXD plus i like seeing peoples opinions about the armies seriously though people automatically call cheese with almost all Eldar lists, and try to weaken things like warpspiders flicker jump, yet still running all the cheese in their army like its totally ok so you can run your cheese and all I can do is use my army of striking scorpians jetbike aurtchs and Banshies?- I get for casual games yea leave the WK at home but I mean in turnies and stuff y not just expect the bikes and WK and warpspiders and swooping hawks and take some stuff that can kill them? The majority of Eldar is just 3+ Nid toughness( 3 for troops 4 on bikes 6-8 on the big guys) with long range high strenght crappy ap (aside from rending/D) guns and lots of moving random amounts of inches.

Yeah...they pretty much are that OP.

The last couple years have been...very kind to Eldar with their 6E and 7E army books. They can do each point of the tactical trinity without sacrificing anywhere. Firepower, mobility, and resiliency. They can match (or exceed) shooting with armies like IG, while being the most mobile army in the game, and often as hard or harder to kill than armies like Space Marines (especially between abilities like Jink, special rules like Flickerjump, and widespread access and availability to psychic powers like Conceal and Fortune, etc).

It's not just that they're able to be very good at a couple of things, it's that they're able to do *everything* as well or better than everyone else, and do it all at the same time. Like...to the point where you actually have to put a lot of thought into making an Eldar army that won't do well.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I think the problem isn't that Eldar as a whole is OP, but they have one very specific build that's very powerful.

I think if you took the average power of their codex's units against, say, average Necron unit power, they'd be much more middle of the road.

I vehemently disagree with this. The Farseer is the best value psyker in the game, the Spiritseer is also pretty great. Seer Councils (including Warlocks) are one of the most potent psychic death-stars in the game. Jain Zar is hands-down the challenge queen of 40K and a phenomenal close combat character. Windriders are the best Troops choice in the game. Dire Avengers are good to great with Wave Serpents, whom still rank as a top tier dedicated transport. Rangers are an ideal objective camping unit. Eldar Sergeants - Exarchs - are the best value squad leaders in the entire game. Striking Scorpions are an above average melee unit. Fire Dragons are among the most terrifying anti-tank units in the game. Wraithguard are downright ridiculous with the right support due to being regular infantry packing Destroyer weapons. Swooping Hawks and Warp Spiders are among the most powerful Fast Attack units of any codex, and indeed among the best Jump Infantry/Jet Pack Infantry units in the game respectively. Crimson Hunters are well above average flyers and dominate against other flyers. The Hemlock Wraithfighter is a cheap flyer that packs in two Destroyer blast weapons and powerful psychic capabilities. Dark Reapers murder anything that can Jink - i.e. Jetbikes and Skimmers that are so popular nowadays - while Vaul's Wraith Support Batteries are extremely deadly for the points. Their battle tanks are all average to above average, War Walkers are superior to almost any other Walkers in the game for sheer points-to-damage output efficiency, the Wraithknight is arguably the single most under-priced model in the game. Oh, and don't forget Forge World with Hornets, Skathach Wraithknights, Nightwings, Revenants, etc....Hell, even their "bad" units - Howling Banshees, Shining Spears, Fire Prisms, Guardians, etc - are all still better than heaps of units from other codices and can be seen by external balancing as average to good units on their own merits.

I don't play Eldar or really complain about them, but saying they have a whole bunch of middle of the road units instead of an all-round strong codex is flat out wrong.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I think the problem isn't that Eldar as a whole is OP, but they have one very specific build that's very powerful.

I think if you took the average power of their codex's units against, say, average Necron unit power, they'd be much more middle of the road.

This is an incredible, blatantly inaccurate statement. Eldar are "OP" precisely because almost ALL their units, average or not, are good. Their basic units are point-for-point better than almost any other comparable unit in another codex. Look at what scatter bikes get for 27 pts; what warp spiders get for 19 and our good friend the wraithknight gets for 295. Other codices have one or two hyper-efficient units (grav cents, dreadknights, etc) but the Eldar are good across the board. When you add in their formation bonuses, they get even better. What other codex can field 19 point models that hit on 2s, wound on 2's (with rending) and can move up to 36" a turn while literally avoiding being shot at? There are builds that can beat them, but they nearly always involve "shenanigans" like invisibility, 2++ rerollable saves and 3+ detachments from more than one codex. Eldar do fine with just one vanilla detachment from their book. This is why they might not win tournaments; but at your local store against the guys with single-CAD or semi-competitive list they will wreck their opponents.

Just to argue devils advocate, the scat bikes are still 27 pts per model, wraith Firedragons warpspiders and dire advengers are super low range average -low mobility (asode from warp) majority is t3 (aside from wraith) no assult tansports so you gotta pay the DE tax for their CC elites, swooping hawks shoot pea shots- really just AA and anti tankish in CC, kinda think all flyers arnt tol good and the phenix Lords are still 200 pts, also I do love the Vauls Wrath, but 24 inches on the D can still take till T2 or 3 to get in range, with blast markers and CC as a major wprry. The majority of Eldar models cost 20-30 pts so you can't really horde either and are primarily specialized so that you can stop them if you can keep up with the speed

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Not looking at my codex rn but don't Deathmark's wound on 2+ and are about 18 pts? Not as menuverable but are more durable

The Big four are above the others mostly, but Eldar are the first among equals. What defines Eldar as stronger than the others is a reliance on certain builds, units and formations. Eldar don't need any of that. an Eldar CAD is very strong and can take almost any combo of units and be strong.

They also have hands down the best troop in the game. Scat bikes for their price do everything that you need in 7th. Their durable, have excellent mid strength shooting with a high rate of fire at an excellent range, and are fast. The last part gives them an edge in Maelstorm.

Everything else is just gravy.

Ha-ha I did have an opponent try to go to ground (for a 5+ cover) as necrons when I shot scat and I was like: its ap 6...

marcman wrote:
Just to argue devils advocate, the scat bikes are still 27 pts per model, wraith Firedragons warpspiders and dire advengers are super low range average -low mobility (asode from warp) majority is t3 (aside from wraith) no assult tansports so you gotta pay the DE tax for their CC elites, swooping hawks shoot pea shots- really just AA and anti tankish in CC, kinda think all flyers arnt tol good and the phenix Lords are still 200 pts. The majority of Eldar models cost 20-30 pts so you can't really horde either and are primarily focused at doing 1 thing really well


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Not looking at my codex rn but don't Deathmark's wound on 2+ and are about 18 pts? Not as menuverable but are more durable

Deathmarks get that for one turn, not going to address how stupid Warp spiders are RAW, and to describe any Eldar unit as low mobility when they has battle focus is being disingenuous.

Lets compare a similar unit. Space marine Bike (an excellent unit in it's own right and one that craps on most troops). Base is 21 points. More durable but a far weaker weapon. Can take two specials the best of which is grav in most cases, a weapon that wounds on Armor and has an 18 inch range. Scat lasers wound the majority of units on 2s to 3s, gets four shots and has a 36 inch range. Jet bikes are better than normal bikes.

As a player who has the second/third best codex I admit what I have, as should you. We are lucky to have good books but don't deny it. Enjoy the options, recognize that your entering into a joint exercise when you play someone and keep their enjoyment in mind.

The problem with arguments that Caederes and the like make come from a lack of follow-through thought with what happens when you actually play as Eldar.

S/he points out that specific unit A is good at task A, and specific unit B is good at task B, therefore OP. Problem is, that's bad logic. If you can do task A, great...but the game isn't exclusively task A. Games are a large combination of tasks. For example, a Crimson Hunter may be good at killing another flyer, but it can be toasted by bolter fire without effort. In order to take advantage of all of those benefits he describes, you'd have to have every unit on the board, ready to use, in the right place at the right time. Hell, if you can manage that task, you can make *any* army OP.

It actually fits really nicely with the Eldar fluff - their army is made of a symphony of specialists, trying to play together in a harmony in destruction. There are days I wish I could pull a SM and put a rocket launcher in a squad of scouts, a power fist in a Dire Avenger unit, etc.


Edit: Again, I'm not saying that they don't have some very OP units, but by and large the race isn't.

I'm not denying it, but I don't thing it is as op as so many people make it out to be. Again w/ devils advocate: you still get ap2 on grav and I think you can get that 2+ rerollable jink as well
Also to point out seer councils, though hilariously amazing and trolly, can still roll perils and have the whole unit sucked into the warpXD though I think you can save a warp charge to sacrifice and avoid perils?

marcman wrote:
Just to argue devils advocate, the scat bikes are still 27 pts per model

Sure, they're not guardsmen, but a Space Marine with a plasma gun is 29pts, an SM Bike with a Plasma Gun is 35pts. The Eldar unit is only T4 instead of T5 like the SM Biker, but has way more firepower, the same save, far more range, and an assault phase move to hide behind terrain to boot. Nothing else I can think of has so much firepower point for point, much less on such a mobile and long ranged platform

wraith Firedragons warpspiders and dire advengers are super low range average -low mobility (asode from warp)

Sure, they don't have a super long range. They are however generally fairly resilient (especially since Fire Dragons saves got turned into 3+) as far as infantry go, and are simply vastly more capable at their given tasks than any equivalent in another army. You can't get Sternguard doing what Fire Dragons do at BS5 and AP"0"/1+.

They also aren't all that slow. They can move and run+fire/Fire+run, and they have access to two of the fastest transports in the game, that are better armored than most Imperial Guard tanks (can can take advantage of JInk and/or Holofields), and gets to run around with firepower equal to many IG Russ tanks (with up to seven S6 BS4 shots, 4 Tl'd and the other 3 pseudo-rending, on top of the Serpent Shield or Pulse Laser, is pretty impressive on a Wave Serpent or Falcon) helps that mobility problem quite a bit.

majority is t3 (aside from wraith)

Which, when shooting is increasingly S6+ or are of such volume as to make the difference between T3 and T4 irrelevant, is often not a meaningful downside. They also frequently will be suppported by psykers that can enhance their saves or allow them to reroll saves and the like.

no assult tansports so you gotta pay the DE tax for their CC elites

Most armies don't have such access, and of those that do not all can really make it work (you don't see Land Raiders running around in games these days typically), and Eldar *can* ally with DE to get that ability and take far greater advantage of it than any other army in the game.

swooping hawks shoot pea shots- really just AA and anti tankish in CC

They're not really there to shoot infantry to death, they're amazing vehicle killers and still have their grenade attack to boot.

kinda think all flyers arnt tol good

Most flyers aren't that great, but Eldar still probably have some of the best, you actually see them on tables unlike the Tau or DA flyers.

Still though the scatter laster is ap 6 while plasma or grav is ap 2
The big difference for me is really the 36 inch range and that you can move out of LOS after shooting, if it were 24, the shurican cannons rending would probably be the better choice, and it still beats out other snipers who have to be in LOS of the enemy after shooting


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Also ha-ha I do also feel the need to point out that SM can ally as battle brothers with nearly half the armies in the game. So for example my GK can make IK ignore cover and get SW Droppods or I can put Skitarii vangaud in an actual transport or ally in Cult to get basic troops with grav


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Then use presence to fix their crappy BS if I really needed to

marcman wrote:
Still though the scatter laster is ap 6 while plasma or grav is ap 2
The big difference for me is really the 36 inch range and that you can move out of LOS after shooting, if it were 24, the shurican cannons rending would probably be the better choice, and it still beats out other snipers who have to be in LOS of the enemy after shooting

Yeah. Scatbikes would be fine if they had much shorter range, no assault move, or less shots. With all three they are undoubtably the best troop choice in the game, and possibly the best unit as well. Just compare them point for point with anything else. The only thing that's even close are Crisis Suits from the Farsight Enclaves. And they still cost 53 points a model with two good guns.

marcman wrote:
Just to argue devils advocate, the scat bikes are still 27 pts per model

Kinda like a single unmarked possessed.
/thread

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
The problem with arguments that Caederes and the like make come from a lack of follow-through thought with what happens when you actually play as Eldar.

S/he points out that specific unit A is good at task A, and specific unit B is good at task B, therefore OP. Problem is, that's bad logic. If you can do task A, great...but the game isn't exclusively task A. Games are a large combination of tasks. For example, a Crimson Hunter may be good at killing another flyer, but it can be toasted by bolter fire without effort. In order to take advantage of all of those benefits he describes, you'd have to have every unit on the board, ready to use, in the right place at the right time. Hell, if you can manage that task, you can make *any* army OP.

It actually fits really nicely with the Eldar fluff - their army is made of a symphony of specialists, trying to play together in a harmony in destruction. There are days I wish I could pull a SM and put a rocket launcher in a squad of scouts, a power fist in a Dire Avenger unit, etc.


Edit: Again, I'm not saying that they don't have some very OP units, but by and large the race isn't.

If the units in question are the best in their role at Task A, they should be classed as great units, no? It's pretty darned simple logic.
Also, to the idea of Eldar being exclusively specialists.....
Windriders murder almost anything in the game that isn't T8+ or AV13+.
Warp Spiders destroy anything with a Toughness value that doesn't have a ridiculously high Initiative value....which is the vast majority of units in the game - including Gargantuan Creatures, and they scythe through light vehicles too.
Dark Reapers obliterate MEQs, Bikes/Jetbikes, Skimmers, medium to low Toughness Monstrous Creatures and - depending on load-out - Flyers and Flying Monstrous Creatures.
Swooping Hawks murder light to medium infantry with their Grenade Packs and massed S3 AP5 shots, they can destroy Flyers very easily, ground vehicles fall prey to their Haywire Grenades. There's almost nothing that they aren't good against short of TEQs and Monstrous/Gargantuan Creatures.
Fire Dragons destroy Vehicles, Super Heavy Vehicles, Monstrous Creatures and TEQs.
Striking Scorpions can hurt nearly anything in the game with their Mandiblasters and mass of S4 attacks plus the Exarchs power fist that strikes at Initiative order.
The basic infantry of the codex are just as capable of killing Space Marines as they are Gargantuan Creatures due to Bladestorm, though obviously the efficiency drops the higher the targets' Toughness value is.
Wraithguard with either D-Scythes or Wraithcannons are a death sentence to anything they get in range of short of flying units.
Fire Prisms can be used for anti-tank, anti-TEQ or anti-MEQ duties at a moments' notice.
Vaul's Wrath Support Batteries with D-Cannons are a threat to literally everything in the game short of flying units.
The Wraithknight with Ghostglaive punches through any ground target imaginable, including Super Heavies and other Gargantuan Creatures, while Stomps balance the equation against hordes.
The Hemlock Wraithfighter can blast ground vehicles/squads/monsters with its pair of Heavy D-Scythes, Psychic Shriek Flying Monstrous Creatures and just generally be a nuisance with its unrestricted access to Telepathy psychic powers.

Most of their units don't specialize in a single role as you claim, but are massive threats to a wide range of unit types. In that sense, do they really class as specialists in the usual sense or are they just general murder machines? I vote in favor of the latter. Again, even if you do subscribe to the idea that they are all specialists, you can fit enough divergent firepower into an Eldar list to run a broad mix of units and still have an incredibly competitive army list. Also, as noted before, their specialists are among the best in the game at what they do. Fire Dragons are a fantastic unit but you don't seem them much because Wraithguard fulfill the same role, just better. How many other codices in the game can make a claim like that?

Ha-ha i mea you get a funny feeling in lowpoint games using only 10 models- if you lose 1 Scatbikes its like losing 20% of your army-
Let's say warp spiders could only flicker jump once per turn, would they be only considered average then- around striking scorpians power? Ig they still wound on 2+ because lots of models have around a 4 initiative, but they're guns would still be a 12 inch range, so it would take around 2 turns to even fire a shot, and lots of dice rolls using battlefocus and the mve during assult to get to cover as you only get 1 flicker jump makes they're survivability a lot lower and makes them even more situational. I may have gotten used to looking at all the OP models in Eldar ha-ha, but I mean without flicker they would be blown to pieces and probably banshie usable

marcman wrote:
Ha-ha i mea you get a funny feeling in lowpoint games using only 10 models- if you lose 1 Scatbikes its like losing 20% of your army-
Let's say warp spiders could only flicker jump once per turn, would they be only considered average then- around striking scorpians power? Ig they still wound on 2+ because lots of models have around a 4 initiative, but they're guns would still be a 12 inch range, so it would take around 2 turns to even fire a shot, and lots of dice rolls using battlefocus and the mve during assult to get to cover as you only get 1 flicker jump makes they're survivability a lot lower and makes them even more situational. I may have gotten used to looking at all the OP models in Eldar ha-ha, but I mean without flicker they would be blown to pieces and probably banshie usable

Actually, even with only one flicker-jump a turn they are still excellent. With that nerd in effect the winning list at LVO had either 30 or 45 spiders. I don't remember which, but it was quite a large number.

marcman wrote:
I'm not denying it, but I don't thing it is as op as so many people make it out to be. Again w/ devils advocate: you still get ap2 on grav and I think you can get that 2+ rerollable jink as well
Also to point out seer councils, though hilariously amazing and trolly, can still roll perils and have the whole unit sucked into the warpXD though I think you can save a warp charge to sacrifice and avoid perils?

Eldar can spend a charge to ignore the worst of perils something no one else can do.

Only dark angels can do the 2+ cover save with reroll and ignores cover is not rare.

AP barely matters when you get 4 shots at S6. Your wounding most units on 2s and your glancing most vehicles to death in short order. As a Marine player whose good friend played Shoota heavy boys, if you make me roll enough dice, anything will die

marcman wrote:
Just to argue devils advocate, the scat bikes are still 27 pts per model, wraith Firedragons warpspiders and dire advengers are super low range average -low mobility (asode from warp) majority is t3 (aside from wraith) no assult tansports so you gotta pay the DE tax for their CC elites, swooping hawks shoot pea shots- really just AA and anti tankish in CC, kinda think all flyers arnt tol good and the phenix Lords are still 200 pts, also I do love the Vauls Wrath, but 24 inches on the D can still take till T2 or 3 to get in range, with blast markers and CC as a major wprry. The majority of Eldar models cost 20-30 pts so you can't really horde either and are primarily specialized so that you can stop them if you can keep up with the speed

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Not looking at my codex rn but don't Deathmark's wound on 2+ and are about 18 pts? Not as menuverable but are more durable

You can run minimum squad sizes of three for Windriders, they are possibly the fastest ground unit in the game, they are the hardest hitting ranged unit in the game relative to their points cost, and they can play Jump-Shoot-Jump due to the Eldar Jetbike rules along with their massive range guns to eliminate a lot of return fire. They are widely seen as the best unit in the game for numerous reasons regardless of their points cost per model, not to mention that they are better in objective games than any other Troops choice you could think of.
Eldar have ways of mitigating the low mobility of Wraithguard, Fire Dragons and Dire Avengers. Firstly, the Craftworld Warhost gives each of the 18" range units an effective shooting range of 30" without factoring in a transport. Wave Serpents are incredibly mobile, great value transports, and Falcons are fairly good for that too. The Falcon Cloudstrike group, while inefficient, is yet another option. There's also the Allied Archon with a Webway Portal. Ergo, their mobility and range deficiencies are easily accounted for due to the presence of Battle Focus and other surrounding factors.
Yes, Eldar don't take return volleys well, but they are also the best in the game at positioning for minimizing return damage - again, Battle Focus plays into this, as do the Flickerjumps from Warp Spiders. Also, if a Wraithknight with a Ghostglaive is bearing down on your army, what would you rather focus on?
Striking Scorpions don't require an Assault Transport as they can Infiltrate and get numerous defensive bonuses before they shoot or charge. Shining Spears don't need them either as they are Eldar Jetbikes with a built-in 4+ cover save. Only Wraithblades and Howling Banshees really need them, and even then, Eldar can use Sanctic Daemonology and other psychic abilities to buff up the former and teleport them around the battlefield, while the latter is fast as all hell.
Swooping Hawks do not "shoot pea shots", three S3 AP5 shots per model will tear up light to medium infantry fairly well, all things considered. Their Grenade Pack is also straight murder to 4+ armored infantry.
Eldar flyers are among the best in any codex, not including Forge World (even then, they are still pretty good). The Crimson Hunter is fantastic in an aerial dominance role, while the Hemlock Wraithfighter is a powerful generalist - come on, two small blast D-Scythe weapons and a bunch of Telepathy powers on a flyer somehow isn't good? Really?
You can take Eldrad to get in range with the D-Cannon artillery platforms if you want due to his Warlord Trait conferring Scout on D3+1 units. Eldrad is less efficient than two Farseers but he's still good solely for that Scout bonus. They are highly resistant to shooting and most melee units that get in range of them are going to be sorry unless they are death-stars, in which case you would be relying on Wraithknights for Stomps anyway.
The thing with Eldar is that point-for-point they shoot better as a whole army than any other codex barring perhaps Tau, for raw efficiency they are nearly unparalleled in that department. Tau also can't match their speed and are outclassed in melee, while also entirely lacking psychic powers.

I respect that you are playing devil's advocate, and again, I don't actively participate in anti-Eldar whining, but denying that they are the overall strongest faction in the game - especially if you include Forge World support - or at the very least one of the top four armies currently just isn't something I can agree with.

I suppose yes they are more varsitile than killing just one thing, but they still are more situational than most. The only thing that makes up for it is battle focus as some armies just cant keep up to counter move. Honestly I find that the range of some of their guns is stilll a huge problem, which prevents lots of spam(except for units like WK warp and swooping which can move fast on foot and scat with 36 inch guns), which is why I don't plan on taking fire dragons and have to limit my D strenth Vauls Wrath and Wraith gaurd- if only there was an extra 6-12 inches man I'd be in heaven


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Haha I just don't like transports too much IG, they're such a hassle

marcman wrote:
Ha-ha i mea you get a funny feeling in lowpoint games using only 10 models- if you lose 1 Scatbikes its like losing 20% of your army-
Let's say warp spiders could only flicker jump once per turn, would they be only considered average then- around striking scorpians power? Ig they still wound on 2+ because lots of models have around a 4 initiative, but they're guns would still be a 12 inch range, so it would take around 2 turns to even fire a shot, and lots of dice rolls using battlefocus and the mve during assult to get to cover as you only get 1 flicker jump makes they're survivability a lot lower and makes them even more situational. I may have gotten used to looking at all the OP models in Eldar ha-ha, but I mean without flicker they would be blown to pieces and probably banshie usable

As someone else said, an army featuring well over thirty Warp Spiders won the most recent LVO, one of the largest grand tournaments ever, and that's even with the nerf to having only one Flickerjump per turn as per the ITC rules. They are stupidly powerful by themselves and in an Aspect Host.

In an untimed game nothing about eldar really bothers me. Wraith Knights don't bother me, Scat bikes don't bother me, and the massed psykers doesn't bother me.

What gets me is in a tournament setting where you have limited time to play, any army that has 25+ warp dice a turn and 15 guys with powers. Yes it is a legitimate build, but I have seen people who are not practiced at it literally take 20 minutes for one PHASE of the game. That isn't the eldar's fault. That problem isn't even specifically eldar. However, eldar is one of culprits. Returning to the old method of "hey roll a leadership check at the beginning of your movement phase, or shooting phase (depending upon the power), and you only get to cast as many times as your ML" would help speed that along.

With that being said, yes they have some VERY nasty builds. Yes they can be a tough army to beat. However, they require a VERY good player to be handled right. Over the years what I really am sorry to have seen change is that eldar use to be the glass hammer. Super powerful, but died easy if you weren't careful. The tendency to run lots of wraiths, scat bikes, and the increase in all aspect armour to 3+ has changed the way they play.

Yea ha-ha I heard it was 45, 3 aspect hosts! I didn't know it was with the nerf though! I've never actually tried them yet. Also it may be just me, but I've found that you need to spam farseers to be useful, otherwise they're worthless... Really though Eldar already have good BS, giving Invisibility to 1 min squad of guys is silly, ig divination could be useful, but then if you choose to use an eldrich bomb you get in that 24 inch range and shoot it, but then get blown to pieces the next turn, which is why I feel like either you need to go with 4 farseers and a seer council and do cheese death star or just take a warlock as the cheapest HQ and put him with some dark reapers for shrouded. Although would you USD bike farseers cause he can move again in assult to hide after casting a spell?

marcman wrote:
I suppose yes they are more varsitile than killing just one thing, but they still are more situational than most. The only thing that makes up for it is battle focus as some armies just cant keep up to counter move. Honestly I find that the range of some of their guns is stilll a huge problem, which prevents lots of spam(except for units like WK warp and swooping which can move fast on foot and scat with 36 inch guns), which is why I don't plan on taking fire dragons and have to limit my D strenth Vauls Wrath and Wraith gaurd- if only there was an extra 6-12 inches man I'd be in heaven


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Haha I just don't like transports too much IG, they're such a hassle

The LVO came down to Eldar vs Eldar and they have down well in many tournaments and that's after a few direct and indirect tweaks. You have consistently ignore my quotes, which I find disappointing. Once again I'm an Astartes player, we both have top tier books. I'm happy about that but I don't deny it. This game is a social contract and to pretend your not on top is just unnecessary