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Yea it seems like dark Eldar took the more glass cannon and abuse cover approach, Eldar bikes are very durable in my opinion, if they were like reavers 5+ and I believe T3 but with 3+ jink it'd be totally different. I think their OPness doesbattract a lot more inexperienced players ha-ha but then they're so complicated that yea I imagine a 20 min qsycic phase could be possible XD plus you have to move after every phase which gets tedious, on the bright side they only have probably 40 models compared to others who use 100 or more so moving phase doesn't take 40 minXD

marcman wrote:
Yea ha-ha I heard it was 45, 3 aspect hosts! I didn't know it was with the nerf though! I've never actually tried them yet. Also it may be just me, but I've found that you need to spam farseers to be useful, otherwise they're worthless... Really though Eldar already have good BS, giving Invisibility to 1 min squad of guys is silly, ig divination could be useful, but then if you choose to use an eldrich bomb you get in that 24 inch range and shoot it, but then get blown to pieces the next turn, which is why I feel like either you need to go with 4 farseers and a seer council and do cheese death star or just take a warlock as the cheapest HQ and put him with some dark reapers for shrouded. Although would you USD bike farseers cause he can move again in assult to hide after casting a spell?

You only need more than one Farseer if you are playing against a highly psychic army. They provide you with three warp charges, use mostly Blessings (meaning no Deny the Witch bonuses for the opponent), and can re-roll the dice for any single cast or deny attempt per psychic phase. They are the most self sufficient psyker in the game for those reasons; regardless of whether you run Telepathy or Runes of Fate, they will be generally have a big presence on the game due mostly to the defensive bonuses and occasional highly damaging witchfire. Farseers on Jetbikes are a logical choice because it offers the Farseer mobility to keep up with the rest of the list without being stuck in a transport and thus being incapable of casting until he jumps out, as well as the aforementioned Jump-Shoot-Jump capabilities. I'm not sure what you mean by your Invisibility comment, you'd probably be giving that to a Wraithknight if you got the power. If it's a big enough game, casting Invisibility on a Revenant will probably see your opponent slap you in the face.

I haven't ignored ur qoutes ha-ha I do skim some of the really long paragraphs and do admit they are op, just not so op that it's the automatic win who is in dire need of nerfs army that its made out to be. Even if I play Eldar and try to bring a good list its not like I'm tryna suck all the fun into the warp or slmethingXD I honestly find some of the other players in my gaming group bring more cheese than me from armies like tau necron and SM and I guess it irritates me that they feel the need to run RAW or RAI as it benefits they're army yet nerf my army into oblivion, like i really wanna be like yea ill follow itc rules on my warp spiders if you dont use decurion ormarkerlights ignores cover heheXD I guess using Eldar puts you up to the no sympathy sorta path but stillXD
I do know they're op ha-ha I just feel like others are op too, maybe not as op, but still op

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh lol currently ive only played 500 and 750 with Eldar and so haven't taken a WK, and because your supposed to run min squads of troops with Eldar casting invisiblity on one unit seems irrelevant as there are 8 others to shoot at. IG when I do every get around to using a WK it makes more sense to get a farseers, currently I have been saving the 65 pts to use on say an extra squad of 3 Dark Reapers. I do hope to get some Vauls Wrath Support batteries, which can benefit from guide and invisiblity and such.

No army is an automatic win, but Eldar/Necrons/Tau/Space Marines/Chaos Daemons (if you go the cheese build) still have higher chances of winning a game based purely on using that faction due to possessing better overall rules if you look at a codex as the sum total of its constituent parts.

Take Tyranids for example, the Flying Hive Tyrant is probably the best non-Unique Flying Monstrous Creature in the game, but the vast majority (not all though as some people believe) of other Tyranid units are awful. Thus, competitive Tyranid builds tend to lack diversity and become easily predictable and thus can be countered with little difficulty, whereas the more variable nature of the top codices in terms of what competitive builds they can put out makes such an approach less applicable.

Of course, tournament lists for each faction tend to follow a set archetype - Windriders, Warp Spiders/Swooping Hawks and Wraithknights for Eldar; Gladius Strike Force or Centurion Devastator death-star for Space Marines, etc - but the unpredictability of an army such as the one consisting of 45 Warp Spiders popping up and winning a major tournament is what really sets the top factions aside from the others.

I can't speak to your Meta or what your bringing. The big four run roughly equal to each other, with Eldar being able to push it if you want the strongest. Can a Astartes, Necron or Tau be stronger if your taking the weakest options in an eldar list, yes.

The issue is Eldar codex over all has some of the strongest internal and external balance, you have one bad unit, shinning spears and that is mostly because you have scatter bikes as troops.

marcman wrote:
I haven't ignored ur qoutes ha-ha I do skim some of the really long paragraphs and do admit they are op, just not so op that it's the automatic win who is in dire need of nerfs army that its made out to be. Even if I play Eldar and try to bring a good list its not like I'm tryna suck all the fun into the warp or slmethingXD I honestly find some of the other players in my gaming group bring more cheese than me from armies like tau necron and SM and I guess it irritates me that they feel the need to run RAW or RAI as it benefits they're army. I guess usig Eldar puts you up to the no sympathy sorta path but stillXD


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh lol currently ive only played 500 and 750 with Eldar and so haven't taken a WK, and because your supposed to run min squads of troops with Eldar casting invisiblity on one unit seems irrelevant as there are 8 others to shoot at. IG when I do every get around to using a WK it makes more sense to get a farseers, currently I have been saving the 65 pts to use on say an extra squad of 3 Dark Reapers. I do hope to get some Vauls Wrath Support batteries, which can benefit from guide and invisiblity and such.

Small points games aren't really indicative of standard games as almost every faction in the game is built to shine at the 1500+ point level where all their options unlock and can properly mesh with each other.

Except Skitarii haha, I feel like they crush from 500-1000 and then need allies

Are you just going to deflect the counterpoints for the entire thread? Because your counterpoint is that it takes the strongest lists from the next three strongest armies to stand on even ground.

I feel like there's some self-contradiction going on here:

"An army of 45 warp spiders is speaks to the codex being OP."
And
"Small points games don't count because units need to properly mesh with each other."

Because you need at least 45 warp spiders in order to mesh with each other, apparently...? Yeah, no. Honestly, this is why it sucks to play Eldar - no matter what you do or how hard you try, people will accuse you of cheese or OPness when the reality is that it's nowhere near as bad as people say. They're good, not godly. It's a convenient excuse, though - if you get accused of playing unfairly, it means they're the innocent victims here.

As an aside, what the first point actually speaks to is one unit's balance and the meta being played against more than a faction. Pulling one of the admittedly stronger units out and highlight it doesn't reflect the entire codex.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
They're good, not godly.

Tournament results would tend to disagree. They're doing disproportionately well, by a somewhat ridiculous statistical margin, at tournaments, even with many of their more powerful abilities nerfed (e.g. D-weapons, Invisibility, 2+ rerolls, Scatterlaser availability for Jetbikes, etc).

Scatbikes are over the top. GW has broken a tabu by creating a TROOP unit in which EACH member can get a special weapon.
The same holds for Wraithguard giving them D weapons. As said, two other very good units are Warp Spiders and the WK.
In view of this, I have still shelved my beloved Eldar after winning two consecutive RTTs in the 6th edition.
I'm playing with the thought to sell them. But then I guess I'm dying inside.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
I feel like there's some self-contradiction going on here:

"An army of 45 warp spiders is speaks to the codex being OP."
And
"Small points games don't count because units need to properly mesh with each other."

Because you need at least 45 warp spiders in order to mesh with each other, apparently...? Yeah, no. Honestly, this is why it sucks to play Eldar - no matter what you do or how hard you try, people will accuse you of cheese or OPness when the reality is that it's nowhere near as bad as people say. They're good, not godly. It's a convenient excuse, though - if you get accused of playing unfairly, it means they're the innocent victims here.

As an aside, what the first point actually speaks to is one unit's balance and the meta being played against more than a faction. Pulling one of the admittedly stronger units out and highlight it doesn't reflect the entire codex.

Note the terminology I used in my post. "...aren't really indicative..." "...almost every faction..." You can theoretically break any points limit by spamming certain unit choices and lots of hijinks ensue where many factions are at a disadvantage because their top builds only shine in game sizes that allow them room to breathe. This is the case with death-star builds, super-detachment armies (Decurion, Gladius Strike Force, Hunter Contingent, etc) and so on. My posts aren't contradictory whatsoever once you account for the other point I made, that being the more competitive codices have multiple top tier builds available to them rather than just one. This is why Tyranids (Flyrant spam with Mucolids and Mawlocs) or even Chaos Daemons (Fateweaver, Belakor, Pink Horror Troops, stuff to taste) tend not to be as competitive as Space Marines (Gladius Strike Force, Skyhammer, Centurion Devastator death-star) or Eldar (Aspect Host spam of either Warp Spiders or Swooping Hawks, Wraithknight spam, Windrider spam, Corpsethief Claw null deployment lists, Seer Councils, etc). Notice the amount of top-tier competitive builds that the top factions have compared to other armies. Warp Spider spam is an EXAMPLE of one of the competitive Eldar lists. The list it beat in the Grand Final was built more around Swooping Hawks. An army that recently won...Nova I believe?...was oriented around Wraithknight spam. You can see a wide range of Eldar units in those lists too. It is very much indicative of the overall power level of the codex as a whole that they can have such diversity in their tournament lists and still be wildly successful.

I'm sorry, but saying they are "good, not godly" when they are staunchly in the top four codices in the game for tournament participation and wins is patently wrong. Again, don't misconstrue what I am saying as Eldar whining, I am merely pointing out the facts of the matter and that is that Eldar have been dealt a better hand than almost every other codex in the game. Again, your final point ignores the earlier statements I made backed by tournament results as evidence; you can make a proven tournament-winning Eldar list with more than just Warp Spiders, they just happen to be the most recent example of what Eldar are capable of due to the updated Doom of Mymaera. As an aside, do you refute what I stated earlier with regards to your "specialists" comments?

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

As an aside, what the first point actually speaks to is one unit's balance and the meta being played against more than a faction. Pulling one of the admittedly stronger units out and highlight it doesn't reflect the entire codex.

The effectiveness of a codex is usually determined by the strength of a single unit, as long as that unit is spammable. CSM in the 6th were overpowered, the Heldrake was that good. Eldar in the 6th edition were overpowered; the wave serpent was that good. The issue with Eldar in the 7th isn't that people are unfairly representing the codex by only commenting on a single option, but rather that they have lots of options are straight up better than anything else in any other codex. It's not just the Warp Spiders that are good, it's not just the Scatbikes, or the Wraithknights, etc it's getting all of them. Any other book outside the top 4 with any one of those options would become a top tier book on that merit alone.

Saying "well this codex isn't OP if we ignore the 5 or 6 best unit choices" is no argument at all, especially considering there are several books out there that simply don't have even one choice that could be argued is OP. Even with that having been said, the Eldar book isn't even weak without it's top 5 or 6 unit, it still sits comfortably at the top of Tier 2, below the 7.5 codexes. I mean, what other book can you remove all of the best units from and still say it's better than half the armies in the game?

 Filch wrote:
Are you going to pull a dman137 and argue that eldar are in no shape or form overpowered and imbalanced?

Aww man, what ever happened to Dman?

I can't wait to see GW read this thread and nerf to oblivion the Howling Banshees

Anyway, the OP is in

- D weapons
- Wraithknight
- Too many heavy weapons on bikes (and bikes troops in general one could argue)
- possibly psionics
- Spiders too "slippery"

The rest just works more as intended. Many codexes, like my beloved CSM, just do not have functional units so in comparison Eldar are OP. An unit should not be considered OP because you select it without regretting it, but because is really and clearly unbalanced (see what I listed above)

Kaiyanwang wrote:
I can't wait to see GW read this thread and nerf to oblivion the Howling Banshees

More like they somehow interpret that because Dark Eldar make such good allies to Eldar than they need to nerf Raiders to "balance" Eldar. Then they somehow make guardian's with a weapon platform count as artillery so they become T7.

Can we just pin "yes eldar are op, next discussion please" to the top of the board. Every month, sometimes multiple times someone comes here after their friends complain about their eldar army, try to say that they aren't, then promptly get shot down with facts and hard evidence to the contrary. It could save alot of time. Title it "before you complain about eldar hate, read this".

Based on all possible metrics using actual data of their game performances, Eldar can not be considered overpowered.

There are several other armies performing within the same ranges of success.

Unless you're also going to declare Space Marines, Dark Angels, Tau, Necrons, Chaos Daemons, and Chaos Renegades as overpowered, you cannot apply that to Eldar. If 7 armies are equally powerful, calling them all overpowered would be disingenuous.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Scatbikes are over the top. GW has broken a tabu by creating a TROOP unit in which EACH member can get a special weapon.
The same holds for Wraithguard giving them D weapons. As said, two other very good units are Warp Spiders and the WK.
In view of this, I have still shelved my beloved Eldar after winning two consecutive RTTs in the 6th edition.
I'm playing with the thought to see them. But then I guess I'm dying inside.

Yea, as a n Eldar player mostly I only run one special weapon on bikes (tournament play is an exception to this), I get that they wanted people to buy kits to get the bits to make more scatter bikes... but still not something other troops can do and Eldar should not have been given the option to begin with. some stuff was cheese with GW wanting to sell models I suppose such as wraithguard and WK and adding D over the str 10 ap1 made them way to cheap for what they do. spiders though while good I think are actually not OP for the points.

one thing I would point out in regards to the OP would actually have to do with ease of play, I get that Eldar are a powerful codex but I still think they are on the upper end of skill required to use, they are not as forgiving as other codexes to mistakes and you have a lot more to keep track of. I love playing my orks and other armies as well but I never have as mush to keep track of in them as making sure my glass cannons are safe, my tough units are enticing, and I am in good positions to deny range where needed but still grab objectives if the risk/reward is present. A new player is unlikely t pick up elder and be as successful immediately as if they had just taken vanilla marines

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Based on all possible metrics using actual data of their game performances, Eldar can not be considered overpowered.

There are several other armies performing within the same ranges of success.

Unless you're also going to declare Space Marines, Dark Angels, Tau, Necrons, Chaos Daemons, and Chaos Renegades as overpowered, you cannot apply that to Eldar. If 7 armies are equally powerful, calling them all overpowered would be disingenuous.

I do think multiple tournament results can conclusively say Eldar are clearly superior. Gladius SM can win by maelstrom points of just dying slowly enough to last the 6 turns. Necrons are difficult to remove from the board but haven't won in quite some time, and tau while as scary as they sound, haven't won any major tournament in a long time. even after a "7.5" update.

So based on all possible actual data, using the highest performers and competitive builds (you can always sluff build and ruin the comparison) they are clearly the best. Dice are dice, and can ruin the best build with bad luck. unless your ranges of success are + or - 50% win/loss.

Most has been said already: Eldar are what others build of it, it has the most cheese and WAAC and TFG are going to ruin it for all.

How ever in a good group many fun and fair lists can be built.

Jetbikes should have never had access to all heavy weapons 1 for every 3 was sufficient and balanced.

Ghosthelm is hardly OP, however Runes of the Farseer are, they should have never been allowed to do the reroll in both players turn.

Many aspects got boosts with out paying a tax

However, gargantuan/super heavy, D weapons, formations are all problems of the game in general; IMHO, not just Eldar. They should have never been allowed in normal 40K. Apoc was an excellent game and all those things had a place there.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Based on all possible metrics using actual data of their game performances, Eldar can not be considered overpowered.

There are several other armies performing within the same ranges of success.

Unless you're also going to declare Space Marines, Dark Angels, Tau, Necrons, Chaos Daemons, and Chaos Renegades as overpowered, you cannot apply that to Eldar. If 7 armies are equally powerful, calling them all overpowered would be disingenuous.

Except in essentially every major tournament, elder are disproportionally ranked in the top ranks compared to other armies. Just look at LVO for example

Eldar are strong because they dont need formations to shine, they can take a CAD and do as well as any free points formation out there because, for the most part, the army has no bad units.

And the good ones are really good, be it because of the strength of their rules or the fact they're undercosted compared to a similar unit of another army that fills the same role.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

one thing I would point out in regards to the OP would actually have to do with ease of play, I get that Eldar are a powerful codex but I still think they are on the upper end of skill required to use, they are not as forgiving as other codexes to mistakes and you have a lot more to keep track of. I love playing my orks and other armies as well but I never have as mush to keep track of in them as making sure my glass cannons are safe, my tough units are enticing, and I am in good positions to deny range where needed but still grab objectives if the risk/reward is present. A new player is unlikely t pick up elder and be as successful immediately as if they had just taken vanilla marines

I disagree with this. I find Eldar almost play themselves in many instances. Because so many of their units are either A) clearly defined in their role and excel in that role, or B) absurdly good against everything, its not hard to run an Eldar army at all. How is the ability to grab objectives anywhere on the board with better-than-MEQ durability in any given turn difficult to manage? How is absurdly easy (and inexpensive) access to ranged D difficult to manage? Even their Decurian-style formations are easy to utilize, with a phenomenally efficient Core detachment (oh nooo, I have to spend a whopping 50 points on a Vyper that is only sort of useful, there goes my army!) and a number of very flexible and efficient Auxiliary detachments (seriously, a single WK or D-flyer, two very desirable units, as its own aux detachment! who else has that kind of Decurian efficiency?)

The only thing tough to manage with Eldar is the amount of special rules to keep up with. This might discourage some new players, but since points A and B still exist, they can forget half of the special rules and still pull out a victory in a casual game. I speak from experience both having used Eldar in 6th for the first time (1-0 record, woo hoo), and having regularly played against a 40K rookie starting with 6th edition and an Eldar army. To this day, he still forgets a third of his special rules, and usually comes out on top.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

one thing I would point out in regards to the OP would actually have to do with ease of play, I get that Eldar are a powerful codex but I still think they are on the upper end of skill required to use, they are not as forgiving as other codexes to mistakes and you have a lot more to keep track of. I love playing my orks and other armies as well but I never have as mush to keep track of in them as making sure my glass cannons are safe, my tough units are enticing, and I am in good positions to deny range where needed but still grab objectives if the risk/reward is present. A new player is unlikely t pick up elder and be as successful immediately as if they had just taken vanilla marines

I disagree with this. I find Eldar almost play themselves in many instances. Because so many of their units are either A) clearly defined in their role and excel in that role, or B) absurdly good against everything, its not hard to run an Eldar army at all. How is the ability to grab objectives anywhere on the board with better-than-MEQ durability in any given turn difficult to manage? How is absurdly easy (and inexpensive) access to ranged D difficult to manage? Even their Decurian-style formations are easy to utilize, with a phenomenally efficient Core detachment (oh nooo, I have to spend a whopping 50 points on a Vyper that is only sort of useful, there goes my army!) and a number of very flexible and efficient Auxiliary detachments (seriously, a single WK or D-flyer, two very desirable units, as its own aux detachment! who else has that kind of Decurian efficiency?)

The only thing tough to manage with Eldar is the amount of special rules to keep up with. This might discourage some new players, but since points A and B still exist, they can forget half of the special rules and still pull out a victory in a casual game. I speak from experience both having used Eldar in 6th for the first time (1-0 record, woo hoo), and having regularly played against a 40K rookie starting with 6th edition and an Eldar army. To this day, he still forgets a third of his special rules, and usually comes out on top.

Completely agree with this.

Can the "Eldar take a lot of skill to manage their specialized scalpel like units" myth die in a fire already

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Even their Decurian-style formations are easy to utilize, with a phenomenally efficient Core detachment (oh nooo, I have to spend a whopping 50 points on a Vyper that is only sort of useful, there goes my army!) and a number of very flexible and efficient Auxiliary detachments (seriously, a single WK or D-flyer, two very desirable units, as its own aux detachment! who else has that kind of Decurian efficiency?)

Well, I disagree with you sir.

The Warhost is atrocious. Eldar are the only 7.5 edition dex that does not want to use their Decurion. All of the Cores are lackluster, and the Auxiliaries either A. Don't benefit from the detachment, so why bother? B. Are too expensive for your average list (Wraith Host). Or C. Are just as easily (and probably more effectively) used with a CAD.

Eldar are certainly OP compared to pretty much every army, but they do have one of the worst detachments currently (Orks probably take that, with the new supplement).

Eldar are probably the only army were a CAD makes more sense for the most part.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Eldar are probably the only army were a CAD makes more sense for the most part.

Depends. Due to ITC nerf of CFP, essentially all top Tau tournament lists are CAD as well

notredameguy10 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Eldar are probably the only army were a CAD makes more sense for the most part.

Depends. Due to ITC nerf of CFP, essentially all top Tau tournament lists are CAD as well

That's based on a nerf from an unofficial FAQ meant for Tournaments. So, in a traditional sense, their detachment is still good. Even in the most casual setting, Eldar's Warhost is extremely lackluster.

Eldar have easy to use, point and click, cheaply costed units that are very killy, and very fast, which is why they get their OP status.

Necrons get OP from being insanely durable.

Tau get it from "lol, bullets and lasers before you get to move"

Space marines bought the dealership, so free tanks, and grav laughs at everything.

They are all crazy powerful, but I still dislike fighting eldar the most.