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I have a D thirster. I love him. And I feel like it's melee D that's incredibly balanced as its initiative 1. That being said, there are times when that is less than helpful. So my question is simple.

If a model has 2 different melee weapons, he can choose which one he fights with. However if a model has 1 melee weapon, can he choose instead to use his bare fists?

I'm asking this because I've come up against the dreaded wulfen. The ability to charge my D-Thirster in and strike at initiative order is much more important to me than rolling D hits. Mainly because if I wait for the D hits, I'll likely be dead. So I want to know if I can not swing his axe and strike at his normal initiative at strength 6/7 and AP2?

Perhaps someone can help me? Especially with a rules quote?

"Smash?"

The rules on the D thirster sadly say he always fights at 1

The only rule you need is the Colossal rule on the thirster's datasheet. Just possesing the weapon causes you to always fight at I1

 jokerkd wrote:
The only rule you need is the Colossal rule on the thirster's datasheet. Just possesing the weapon causes you to always fight at I1

So 'colossal' is conferred to the model, and not simply the weapon the models attacking with.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
The only rule you need is the Colossal rule on the thirster's datasheet. Just possesing the weapon causes you to always fight at I1

So 'colossal' is conferred to the model, and not simply the weapon the models attacking with.

Its what the rules says. Some rules just debuff even if you aren't using the weapon (like Axe of Blind Fury)

Slowly but surely this BT becomes less and less appealing.

D-thirsters never really worked well out of hte box. They only were super good when you make them unkillable with CD support like Invis and Grimoire (plus access to greater rewards) that way it didn't matter if it was i1 nothing was killing it before it swung.

Colossal doesn't affect the model unless you use the actual weapon.

Every single major tournament FAQ rules it this way.

You choose which weapon to use.

 Aijec wrote:
Colossal doesn't affect the model unless you use the actual weapon.

Every single major tournament FAQ rules it this way.

You choose which weapon to use.

That's an interesting house rule but it's written explicitly so that a model with a weapon with the Colossal special rule fights and piles in at Initiative 1.

 Aijec wrote:
Colossal doesn't affect the model unless you use the actual weapon.

Every single major tournament FAQ rules it this way.

You choose which weapon to use.

This is interesting. Which tournaments dude? Need to try and get a hold of their FAQ's.

This is a funny turn of events, as the only other Colossal D-Weapon in game (Thunderstrike Gauntlet) has a different wording that says it's only when that weapon is being used.

The place where colossal is listed is the same place shred is listed on claws. Why can't I shred with my powerfist too?

Weapons abilities don't apply if you aren't using them.

Nova/Adepticon/ITC all play it like this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xlDuke wrote:

 Aijec wrote:
Colossal doesn't affect the model unless you use the actual weapon.

Every single major tournament FAQ rules it this way.

You choose which weapon to use.

That's an interesting house rule but it's written explicitly so that a model with a weapon with the Colossal special rule fights and piles in at Initiative 1.

Not a house rule.

 Aijec wrote:

Weapons abilities don't apply if you aren't using them.

so Eldrad can only regain warp charge points if he casts psychic powers while fighting in combat with his staff? And Yriel doesn't have to re-roll successful saving throws of 6 if he's not in combat or doesn't swing with his spear?

 Aijec wrote:
Colossal doesn't affect the model unless you use the actual weapon.

Whilst I quite agree (with the exceptions noted by Bojazz), doesn't the D-Thirster lack any other weapon to use instead? Correct me if I'm wrong?

{Edit} As Nos has pointed out (cheers Nos), there are ways to get other weapons. Question voided.

He only has 1 weapon. So even if Colossal only applied when he used that weapon, he doesn't have a choice but to use it. Smash might be the only exception but that's only 1 attack so it doesn't help much.

Apart from the artefacts or rewards which can result in a weapon or two....

This is coming from a competitive player so take from it what you will:

90% of the time I field him he has a greater etherblade from a GR.

I would say it's split 50 50 between what I use in combat, I always use the D weapon more just because its fun and it doesn't but if I wanted to be hyper efficient...

Those weapons explicitly state their use in different phases...

 Aijec wrote:
The place where colossal is listed is the same place shred is listed on claws. Why can't I shred with my powerfist too?

Weapons abilities don't apply if you aren't using them.

Nova/Adepticon/ITC all play it like this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xlDuke wrote:

 Aijec wrote:
Colossal doesn't affect the model unless you use the actual weapon.

Every single major tournament FAQ rules it this way.

You choose which weapon to use.

That's an interesting house rule but it's written explicitly so that a model with a weapon with the Colossal special rule fights and piles in at Initiative 1.

Not a house rule.

Im not trying to be antagonistic here so please let me know if I've missed anything. I've had a look through the rule book and I haven't found anything that says a weapon's abilities only apply if you're using it. Page 48 states "note that certain situations, abilities and weapons can modify a model's initiative".

Usually, as in the case of Shred, the rule itself will say something along the lines of "a model with this rule or attacking with a weapon with this rule does X" where X would be whatever ability is granted by the special rule. Colossal simply says "a model with this weapon Piles In and fights at Initiative step 1". A model is surely considered to be "with" the Great Axe of Khorne regardless of deciding to attack with it or not.

 Aijec wrote:
The place where colossal is listed is the same place shred is listed on claws. Why can't I shred with my powerfist too?

Weapons abilities don't apply if you aren't using them.

Nova/Adepticon/ITC all play it like this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xlDuke wrote:

 Aijec wrote:
Colossal doesn't affect the model unless you use the actual weapon.

Every single major tournament FAQ rules it this way.

You choose which weapon to use.

That's an interesting house rule but it's written explicitly so that a model with a weapon with the Colossal special rule fights and piles in at Initiative 1.

Not a house rule.

Oh so I can ignore the -1 BS from Axe of Blind Fury then right? Because I'm not using a melee weapon in the shooting phase so I'm clearly uneffected by its drawback that only matters outside of combat

(and BTW tourney FAQs are still house rules)

Absolutely, the model could choose to use an ether blade if he really wants to, but due to possessing the great axe he would still pile in and swing at initiative 1.

Otherwise all other bloodthirsters would be completely irrelevant.

This isn't the only weapon that has an effect whether it's used in combat or not.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Absolutely, the model could choose to use an ether blade if he really wants to, but due to possessing the great axe he would still pile in and swing at initiative 1.

Otherwise all other bloodthirsters would be completely irrelevant.

This isn't the only weapon that has an effect whether it's used in combat or not.

To be honest, this was kind of my thinking. Surely if it could choose to not use its axe and strike at normal initiative then there would literally only be one bloodthirster ever selected. Unless you specifically wanted some kind of ranged attack?! So I kind of assumed this was the answer I would get. I just wanted public opinion.

I do however find it interesting that major tournaments allow the D thirster to not use his axe and strike at normal initiative. It seems to go utterly against RAW. But I had seen it done so wanted to ask. I'd thought they had got it wrong, but there was a glimmer of hope. Wishful thinking I suppose. When he was first released I was throwing him at anything. I've very quickly learned you have to carefully pick your fights as he tends to die very easily. I have most success smashing enemy tanks to shreds. Oh well.

According to the logic above, (which I agree with), there is no "blanket" yes or no when it comes to applying the special rules of a weapon. You must read all rules (shocking I know) that a model has before determining when they happen.
Nowhere in the BRB does it say you only read/apply a weapons rules when they are used. Otherwise the Shard of Anaris (Eldar) would only grant Fearless in CC, which is ridiculous.

Yes, rules that apply to the weapon (like shred, or rending) will only happen when the weapon is used. However, if a rule applies to the Model, they will happen regardless of the weapons use. Numerous examples are given above (Eldrad, Yriel, Axe of Blind Fury, etc)
As the Colossal rule specifies the "model with", the rule applies no matter what weapon the BT decides to use.

Another fun example of this very same debate is whether a Solitaire gets a Kiss of Death attack if he uses the Caress (which you will always chose over the Kiss). The Kiss says a "model equipped" makes one of their attacks at strX, apX, blah, blah. So by the same logic that makes a D-Thirster always strike at Init:1, a Solitaire that chooses to attack with the Caress will also make 1 atk as the Kiss.

--

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Absolutely, the model could choose to use an ether blade if he really wants to, but due to possessing the great axe he would still pile in and swing at initiative 1.

Otherwise all other bloodthirsters would be completely irrelevant.

This isn't the only weapon that has an effect whether it's used in combat or not.

To be honest, this was kind of my thinking. Surely if it could choose to not use its axe and strike at normal initiative then there would literally only be one bloodthirster ever selected. Unless you specifically wanted some kind of ranged attack?! So I kind of assumed this was the answer I would get. I just wanted public opinion.

I do however find it interesting that major tournaments allow the D thirster to not use his axe and strike at normal initiative. It seems to go utterly against RAW. But I had seen it done so wanted to ask. I'd thought they had got it wrong, but there was a glimmer of hope. Wishful thinking I suppose. When he was first released I was throwing him at anything. I've very quickly learned you have to carefully pick your fights as he tends to die very easily. I have most success smashing enemy tanks to shreds. Oh well.

2 greater rewards (1-3 are what you need) and the grimoire will help

 Galef wrote:
According to the logic above, (which I agree with), there is no "blanket" yes or no when it comes to applying the special rules of a weapon. You must read all rules (shocking I know) that a model has before determining when they happen.
Nowhere in the BRB does it say you only read/apply a weapons rules when they are used. Otherwise the Shard of Anaris (Eldar) would only grant Fearless in CC, which is ridiculous.

Yes, rules that apply to the weapon (like shred, or rending) will only happen when the weapon is used. However, if a rule applies to the Model, they will happen regardless of the weapons use. Numerous examples are given above (Eldrad, Yriel, Axe of Blind Fury, etc)
As the Colossal rule specifies the "model with", the rule applies no matter what weapon the BT decides to use.

Another fun example of this very same debate is whether a Solitaire gets a Kiss of Death attack if he uses the Caress (which you will always chose over the Kiss). The Kiss says a "model equipped" makes one of their attacks at strX, apX, blah, blah. So by the same logic that makes a D-Thirster always strike at Init:1, a Solitaire that chooses to attack with the Caress will also make 1 atk as the Kiss.

--

More Than One Weapon seems to suggest otherwise regarding a blanket "yes or no". However, in order to initiate it, one must have more than one weapon to use, and in order to ignore the one, you must use the other.

Weapons are Wargear, and sometimes they just act like Wargear and sometimes they act like Weapons. Specialist doesn't affect most Pistols, for example, however, Assault Grenades can allow the model to ignore the Charging into Terrain penalty, even if one was thrown and you (obviously) will not be using it in Melee. It is important to note the difference as to when it applies.

 jokerkd wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Absolutely, the model could choose to use an ether blade if he really wants to, but due to possessing the great axe he would still pile in and swing at initiative 1.

Otherwise all other bloodthirsters would be completely irrelevant.

This isn't the only weapon that has an effect whether it's used in combat or not.

To be honest, this was kind of my thinking. Surely if it could choose to not use its axe and strike at normal initiative then there would literally only be one bloodthirster ever selected. Unless you specifically wanted some kind of ranged attack?! So I kind of assumed this was the answer I would get. I just wanted public opinion.

I do however find it interesting that major tournaments allow the D thirster to not use his axe and strike at normal initiative. It seems to go utterly against RAW. But I had seen it done so wanted to ask. I'd thought they had got it wrong, but there was a glimmer of hope. Wishful thinking I suppose. When he was first released I was throwing him at anything. I've very quickly learned you have to carefully pick your fights as he tends to die very easily. I have most success smashing enemy tanks to shreds. Oh well.

2 greater rewards (1-3 are what you need) and the grimoire will help

The problem is, I run him out of the KDK book. So I don't have access to rewards or that particular relic. And although wanting to be competitive I also want to stay mono khorne so invis is impossible. Keeping him alive is tough.

We've moved off topic, so we should continue this via PM

 jokerkd wrote:
We've moved off topic, so we should continue this via PM

Agreed. I think I'm set on how I'll play it now. It's pretty much how I've always played it. It's something I've seen someone do, but before attempting to try and pull the same trick I like to see what the gaming community thinks.

protip, if you want to charge something crazy big that has the ground based firepower to wipe him out before you can charge with him, fly him, and wait to fail a grounding check, dont jink and then you can charge on your turn,

Trazer985 wrote:
protip, if you want to charge something crazy big that has the ground based firepower to wipe him out before you can charge with him, fly him, and wait to fail a grounding check, dont jink and then you can charge on your turn,

You might want to recheck the grounding test rules. I believe it specifically says they can't assault the following turn.