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blaktoof wrote:
Kriswall-

I am fairly certain you are aware there is a difference on special rule for weapons. Some like rending or fleshbane affect the attack results when striking with the weapon. Some like "Vauls Work, Fleshbane, Murder, Colossal" affect the bearer.

The ones that affect the bearer never explicitly, or specifically call out they stop working at any time.

The rules for one weapon are in regards to special abilities when striking with a weapon, i.e. special rules a weapon has that are tied to striking with the weapon. Not rules that affect the bearer.

nothing in one weapon tells us a weapons special rules cease to exist, or do not work, when striking with another weapon. One weapon tells us we cannot benefit from the special rules used when striking with a weapon, when we are not using it.

Colossal, Vauls work, Cursed(on yriels spear), Murder, etc are not tied with striking with the weapon and these special rules still function when not using the weapon in the assault phase. A d-thirster is subject to colossal at all times. Much like Yriel is cursed at all times.

That's not how more than one weapon is worded though. It doesn't specify between striking abilities and other abilities. It just says abilities which encompasses all abilities.

Charistoph wrote:
But right before Initiative 10 chooses a different Weapon, this rule is not in force, so could Strike Blows according to the Initiative associated without Colossal.

Kriswall wrote:
While the rules don't explicitly tell us when to select weapons, we can infer that it must happen before Initiative step 10 begins.

...
3. Weapon Selection Occurs. Axe of Khorne is NOT selected.

So we have these half steps between steps that are not anywhere in the rulebook then? That's good to know.

Tonberry7 explained it really well. You claim this is RAW and then you add steps where there are none.

Tonberry7 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Ok but if the Colossal rule applies at the start of the Fight sub-phase this already modifies the D thirster initiative to I1, when you get to this step and he comes to strike blows you can then choose which weapon to attack with.

But right before Initiative 10 chooses a different Weapon, this rule is not in force, so could Strike Blows according to the Initiative associated without Colossal. Colossal affects when he Strikes Blows, so would be affected by any rule dismissing it when Striking Blows. Fearless Tests apply outside of Striking Blows, so is not affected by any rule that only applies when Striking Blows.

But now you are just contradicting yourself. Unless I am mistaken you are making the following assertions:
1. Colossal is in effect at all times apart from when attacking with another Weapon.
2. You choose which weapon to use when coming to strike blows.
3. Striking Blows occurs during the relevant initiative step of the Fight sub-phase.

So playing along with your interpretation, Colossal says go at I1 if you have a weapon with this rule. So when it gets to I1 you can choose to use a different weapon and Colossal no longer applies when attacking. But it really makes no difference now as all the other initiative steps have already passed and you're still going at I1 anyway.

Well, yeah, I am contradictory if you insert concepts I never stated. I have never stated one could swap Weapons between Initiative Steps. I have never stated "Striking Blows occurs during the relevant initiative step". I did state "before Initiative 10 chooses a different Weapon, this rule is not in force, so could Strike Blows according to the Initiative associated without Colossal." I was intimating that the Colossal rule was nullified BEFORE its relevant Initiative step.

Ask yourself when Striking Blows occurs. They can only happen during Initiative Steps. More Than One Weapon prevents the mixing and matching of Weapon abilities while Striking Blows. This judgement applies across the entire time a model could be Striking Blows which is Initiative Step 10 through Initiative Step 1, and we cannot mix and match Weapon abilities during this entire time (unless specifically stated, of course).

blaktoof wrote:Kriswall-

I am fairly certain you are aware there is a difference on special rule for weapons. Some like rending or fleshbane affect the attack results when striking with the weapon. Some like "Vauls Work, Fleshbane, Murder, Colossal" affect the bearer.

The ones that affect the bearer never explicitly, or specifically call out they stop working at any time.

The rules for one weapon are in regards to special abilities when striking with a weapon, i.e. special rules a weapon has that are tied to striking with the weapon. Not rules that affect the bearer.

nothing in one weapon tells us a weapons special rules cease to exist, or do not work, when striking with another weapon. One weapon tells us we cannot benefit from the special rules used when striking with a weapon, when we are not using it.

Colossal, Vauls work, Cursed(on yriels spear), Murder, etc are not tied with striking with the weapon and these special rules still function when not using the weapon in the assault phase. A d-thirster is subject to colossal at all times. Much like Yriel is cursed at all times.

And you demonstrate how you keep missing the point. There are two levels of language involved in this situation and you are ignoring the rulebook one while only focusing on the Weapon's.

If I use Unwieldy with a Lightning Claw when I also have Power Fist, would that be mixing and matching abilities? If I use Two-Handed with a Pistol when I also have a Relic Blade, would that be mixing and matching abilities? If I use Shred with a Power Fist because I have a Lightning Claw, would that be mixing and matching abilities?

Ignore the language of the rules and focus on the actual question I asked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Naw wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
But right before Initiative 10 chooses a different Weapon, this rule is not in force, so could Strike Blows according to the Initiative associated without Colossal.

So we have these half steps between steps that are not anywhere in the rulebook then? That's good to know.

Tonberry7 explained it really well. You claim this is RAW and then you add steps where there are none.

Ah, yes, let's ignore everything else and focus on one sentence, shall we? It is so much easier to take things out of context to destroy them.

More Than One Weapon is applied when Striking Blows, I already quoted and underlined it. When does Striking Blows occur?

I don't take anything out of context. There isn't a step like in the shooting phase that tells us to choose weapons. You insist that it is there "before" Initiative 10. I say that in the absence of said step the model gets to strike blows on his initiative.

Has it at all occurred to you that maybe those weapons modifying initiative don't actually follow the rules?

Naw wrote:
I don't take anything out of context. There isn't a step like in the shooting phase that tells us to choose weapons. You insist that it is there "before" Initiative 10. I say that in the absence of said step the model gets to strike blows on his initiative.

Has it at all occurred to you that maybe those weapons modifying initiative don't actually follow the rules?

I'm not even sure what you mean when you say some weapons "don't actually follow the rules". Are they cheater weapons? Seriously. I have no idea what you're implying. We have a framework for attacking with weapons. Weapon selection must happen at some point. If it happens before or when Initiative step 10 starts, all weapons in the game are usable. If we instead take a snapshot of a model BEFORE weapons are selected and force him to wait until that Initiative step before selecting a weapon, some weapons become unusable. Highly unlikely that the second interpretation is correct. Ultimately an FAQ would be needed as proof, but applying the reasonable person standard tells us the first interpretation is more likely.

Out of curiosity, how do you think a Canoptek Wraith attacks with Whip Coils? Rule support. Give me a step by step. My understanding of your argument is as follows.

1. Fight Starts
2. Initiative steps 10-3 happen uneventfully.
3. Initiative step 2 happens. The Canoptek Wraith chooses to strike with his Whip Coils. The game somehow unwinds back to Initiative step 5 because the Whip Coils "don't follow the rules".
4. ...
5. Profit!

In your scenario, what happens if the Wraith is killed at Initiative step 4, before 2 happens and he selects his weapon.

It's almost like you'd HAVE TO know ahead of time which weapon your models are knowing so that you know what Initiative step to have them make their to hit rolls at.

Naw wrote:
I don't take anything out of context. There isn't a step like in the shooting phase that tells us to choose weapons. You insist that it is there "before" Initiative 10. I say that in the absence of said step the model gets to strike blows on his initiative.

Has it at all occurred to you that maybe those weapons modifying initiative don't actually follow the rules?

Had to tuck the kids into bed.

So this is how I read the rules and how we play:

Space marine captain with a power sword and a power fist meets a lone ork nob with da power klaw (to simplify, no more combatants).
No one acts at Init 10 - 6 (whoa, does the capt have Init 5 ? can't remember ).
Comes Initiative 5 and the captain can now choose to swing his sword or wait for Initiative 1 to use the fist. The Ork does not get to choose at all.

Why do you think that doesn't work? I am not adding any "before Initiative 10" steps to the game and still follow the rules as they are. This way both the axe and +init modifying items/weapons work.

My (small) gaming group hasn't thought it would work in any other way.

Kriswall wrote:Out of curiosity, how do you think a Canoptek Wraith attacks with Whip Coils? Rule support. Give me a step by step. My understanding of your argument is as follows.

I know I have the Whip Coils? I know they give me higher Initiative. The Initiative step 5 comes and I announce that I'll attack with the Whip Coils and the game is not broken. I know, it's a weird idea but there you are...

Naw wrote:

Naw wrote:
I don't take anything out of context. There isn't a step like in the shooting phase that tells us to choose weapons. You insist that it is there "before" Initiative 10. I say that in the absence of said step the model gets to strike blows on his initiative.

Has it at all occurred to you that maybe those weapons modifying initiative don't actually follow the rules?

Had to tuck the kids into bed.

So this is how I read the rules and how we play:

Space marine captain with a power sword and a power fist meets a lone ork nob with da power klaw (to simplify, no more combatants).
No one acts at Init 10 - 6 (whoa, does the capt have Init 5 ? can't remember ).
Comes Initiative 5 and the captain can now choose to swing his sword or wait for Initiative 1 to use the fist. The Ork does not get to choose at all.

Why do you think that doesn't work? I am not adding any "before Initiative 10" steps to the game and still follow the rules as they are. This way both the axe and +init modifying items/weapons work.

My (small) gaming group hasn't thought it would work in any other way.

Kriswall wrote:Out of curiosity, how do you think a Canoptek Wraith attacks with Whip Coils? Rule support. Give me a step by step. My understanding of your argument is as follows.

I know I have the Whip Coils? I know they give me higher Initiative. The Initiative step 5 comes and I announce that I'll attack with the Whip Coils and the game is not broken. I know, it's a weird idea but there you are...

So, for Whip Coils to work, the Scarab must select its weapon BEFORE its normal Initiative? Awesome. I'm glad you agree. How far before? When does A model get to pick its weapon?

So, if I just KNOW that my D-Thirster has a different weapon that would normally block Colossal and allow him to attack at Initiative 9, would this be the same scenario? Initiative 9 comes around and I announce that I'll be attacking with the non Axe of Khorne weapon? Same exact scenario, from what I can tell. I'm ok agreeing with your interpretation as it appears to give the same exact result as mine. D-Thirsters can attack at Initiative 9 with a non-AoK weapon.

Well, I've asked in my store. And I was told since the Imp Knight also has a colossal weapon rule that ISNT ambiguous, we'll treat it the same way as that.

SO, I think we've all spent ample time on this one, by this point.


Moving on.