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Am I wrong on this? I've always assumed that the Thunderwolves are the result of Space Wolves who went WAY too far into the Wulfen phase. As in, you get normal guy -> Space Wolf -> Wulfen -> Thunderwolf. Is this wrong? I just reread Propero Burns and they really make it sound like the wolves on Fenris are Space Wolf supplicants who couldn't handle the Canis Helix part of the "upgrade".

Thunderwolves were there when Russ landed. So either Space Wolves can time travel or you're wrong.

No, thunderwolves are native to Fenris. Space wolf recruits who turn full wulfen are either put down or never return from their trials, staying in the wilderness as wild animals. Well, that was until the release of the wulfen.

pm713 wrote:
Thunderwolves were there when Russ landed. So either Space Wolves can time travel or you're wrong.

"there are no wolves on fenris"

He isn't wrong, there is still an ambiguity about the truth of their origins, as per typical gw paradoxical writing. Remember codexes are supposed to represent imperial propaganda, and current knowledge on xenos (which is how changes like the necrons enjoyed get justified), and are not necessarily 'truthful', i.e. changeable at a whim, or allowing such contradictions to co-exist.

Plus everyone can time travel with warp shenanigans.

The no wolves thing could be as simple as there aren't any natural wolves on Fenris as they were all brought from Terra.

There's no definitive answer to the question.

 JamesY wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Thunderwolves were there when Russ landed. So either Space Wolves can time travel or you're wrong.

"there are no wolves on fenris"

He isn't wrong, there is still an ambiguity about the truth of their origins, as per typical gw paradoxical writing. Remember codexes are supposed to represent imperial propaganda, and current knowledge on xenos (which is how changes like the necrons enjoyed get justified), and are not necessarily 'truthful', i.e. changeable at a whim, or allowing such contradictions to co-exist.

Plus everyone can time travel with warp shenanigans.

Well, there are no wolves on fenris, there are monsters on fenris

As for the wulfen, they are not the failed space wolves supplicants, they are the remains of the 13th company who went into the eye of terror way back in the day. (IIRC)

 gwarsh41 wrote:

 JamesY wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Thunderwolves were there when Russ landed. So either Space Wolves can time travel or you're wrong.

"there are no wolves on fenris"

He isn't wrong, there is still an ambiguity about the truth of their origins, as per typical gw paradoxical writing. Remember codexes are supposed to represent imperial propaganda, and current knowledge on xenos (which is how changes like the necrons enjoyed get justified), and are not necessarily 'truthful', i.e. changeable at a whim, or allowing such contradictions to co-exist.

Plus everyone can time travel with warp shenanigans.

Well, there are no wolves on fenris, there are monsters on fenris

As for the wulfen, they are not the failed space wolves supplicants, they are the remains of the 13th company who went into the eye of terror way back in the day. (IIRC)

They're the same basic thing. Wulfen from the 13th Company are just Space Wolves who fell to the Curse of the Wulfen in the HH era. I'd point out that any Space Wolf can become Wulfen not just supplicants.

The old wolfs were a lot smaller and to be rumored from wolf spliced with human DNA

Wulfen are Space Wolves who have succumbed to the Canis Helix, after it has been implanted into their bodies. This means that Thunderwolves, Fenrisian Wolves, etc. etc, due to being there prior to Russ, are not Space Wolves. The Wulfen themselves actually mutated in order to resist Chaos, according to old fluff (the 13th Great Company supplement from the Black Crusade Campaign that GW screwed over the CSM in), that has since been retconned by GW turning back the clock.

Sources: 5th edition Codex: Space Wolves, 7th edition Codex: Space Wolves, Space Wolves Omnibus

Do you have a quote for catching Wulfen? I don't remember anything like that.

pm713 wrote:
Do you have a quote for catching Wulfen? I don't remember anything like that.

I just reread the section of the book covering the Wulfen, and it turns out that that wasn't covered. Now i'm going to spend the next week wondering where I read that

 JamesY wrote:

"there are no wolves on fenris"

Don't act like there's profound wisdom there. Magnus was just pointing out someone's ignorance.

There are no wolves on Fenris because it's an alien world hundreds of light years from the only planet wolves are from.

There are animals on Fenris, but they aren't wolves.

I always believed that the Fenrisian wolves and Thunderwolves are Space Wolves and human crew who got shunted so far back in time by the warp they arrived longer before Fenris was settled by Mankind, and slowly devolved into the respective sizes of wolves. So when men eventually colonize it, those Astartes and humans are there as wolves, and that the Canis Helix is needed for the Geneseed because its some timey-limey shenanigans where the timeline cannot handle it if they don't.



Either that, or its the 13th

When you have to resort to time travel to make your pet theory work, it's probably a good time to realise you're grasping at straws.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
When you have to resort to time travel to make your pet theory work, it's probably a good time to realise you're grasping at straws.

unless of course, time travel is an accepted part of the mythos. then it just becomes another path the story can take. Time travel on a limited basis is established in the setting. ships get lost in the warp and sometimes can arrive before they left. Also, look at the Fallen, they are scattered by chaos through TIME and space. Time travel in this setting isnt any different than any of the other handwavium that is passed off as plot.

 GKTiberius wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
When you have to resort to time travel to make your pet theory work, it's probably a good time to realise you're grasping at straws.

unless of course, time travel is an accepted part of the mythos. then it just becomes another path the story can take. Time travel on a limited basis is established in the setting. ships get lost in the warp and sometimes can arrive before they left. Also, look at the Fallen, they are scattered by chaos through TIME and space. Time travel in this setting isnt any different than any of the other handwavium that is passed off as plot.

It's also completely uncontrolled so you're basically saying it works because because.

pm713 wrote:

 GKTiberius wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
When you have to resort to time travel to make your pet theory work, it's probably a good time to realise you're grasping at straws.

unless of course, time travel is an accepted part of the mythos. then it just becomes another path the story can take. Time travel on a limited basis is established in the setting. ships get lost in the warp and sometimes can arrive before they left. Also, look at the Fallen, they are scattered by chaos through TIME and space. Time travel in this setting isnt any different than any of the other handwavium that is passed off as plot.

It's also completely uncontrolled so you're basically saying it works because because.

Most inciting incidents in the story are not usually controlled by the protagonist. I fail to see how this invalidates it as a path for the story to take.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
When you have to resort to time travel to make your pet theory work, it's probably a good time to realise you're grasping at straws.

as an aside my theory on Cypher is he is actually Luthor from the future (Lion wakes up for the final battle and instead of giving forgiveness sends Luthor on a repentive crusade through space and time to try stack the odds in the loyalist's favour).

DarknessEternal wrote:

 JamesY wrote:

"there are no wolves on fenris"

Don't act like there's profound wisdom there. Magnus was just pointing out someone's ignorance.

There are no wolves on Fenris because it's an alien world hundreds of light years from the only planet wolves are from.

There are animals on Fenris, but they aren't wolves.

Occam's Razor springs to mind for this particular discussion.

I read that some Space Wolves broke through the cadian gate, chasing after thousand sons.
It was in one of the ahriman books.
They have been twisted by the warp to have long fangs and claws etc.

I think we should distinguish this from the space wolves who succumb to the mutation that turns them into wolves.


Basically the 13th? Would never have turned into wolves if they staywd longer in the eye, they would have become more monstrous only.

Right, OK, some points:

When a Fenrisian is recruited, after some physical conditioning and education, the first "implant" they receive is the Canis Helix, a unique addition to the normal seventeen implants, which is actually less of an implant and more of an engineered retrovirus.
Whatever it actually is, or how it assists the later implants, its immediate effect is to "devolve" the aspirant into something like a Wulfen but built on baseline human physiology rather than that of a Space Marine.
These afflicted aspirants are then taken out to the wilds of Asaheim and released to make their way back to the Fang on foot. Those that make it back are deemed to have shown sufficient strength of will to become a Space Wolf and will receive the rest of the implants. Those that don't are struck from the rosters and forgotten.

This much we know from multiple sources, including an entire novel about the process.

We also know that, under extreme conditions, some Space Wolves can 'relapse' and once again attain the wolf-like humanoid state known as Wulfen; in almost all cases this change is permanent and short lived as the circumstances required to trigger it are typically rather fatal even to the transformed Wulfen. However, some very few can survive and master the form, returning to full sapience and becoming a space marine again.

Again, this is info we have from multiple sources.
None of those sources outright state that Wulfen, or afflicted aspirants, can devolve further into more wolf-like beings, though one or two sort of imply it might be possible.

We also have the refrain "there are no wolves on Fenris" as coined by Magnus and "backed up" by the psychic observation of one Mr. Ahriman who sees the "truth" of the wolves that are somehow not dying of heat exhaustion in a desert despite being "native" to their planet's Arctic-equivalent.


From these I'm really not sure we can draw any solid conclusion; we don't know what Magnus and Ahriman saw exactly only that the wolves are not really wolves. While the "they're devolved former aspirants" bit is certainly one possible conclusion, there are at least two others: that they are actually some other creature, possibly native to Fenris, modified by the original settlers there; or that they are minor warp entities bound by the shamanistic rites of the Rune Priests without them truly realising what they have done. I'm sure other hypotheses fit the limited data too, so it seems premature to try to draw a solid conclusion without further information.

I always thought they were recognized by the Thousand Sons as the Space Wolf versions of their own warp-spirits, and Russ and Magnus' "wink-wink" agreement seems to show that Russ respects that Magnus would be the only other primarch to recognise such a thing, and it's a testament to Russ' arrogance that he does not see the hypocracy of the situation as "obviously" his Rune Priests aren't in the same danger from the warp.

I took the "no wolves on Fenris" to mean that those beings are not wolves anywhere they might be.