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Not simply Min/Max or spammy lists but lists that actively go against the fluff, like Necrons allied with Orks or Eldar lists built around summoning daemons. Or pretty much any force that includes a Come the Apocalypse allies.

I'm asking because I am building a Genestealer Cult/Tyranid Vanguard army and I need to find 300pts to bring the army up to 1850, so I'm looking at adding 2 Vindicare Assassins. It's totally unfluffy but there is no other formation I could take and a Tyranid allied detachment forces me to buy a *shudder* Warrior Prime.

Would you roll your eyes at someone just throwing together random forces for either power levels or points? It's more understandable if there is a lot of conversion effort to give the army identiry, for example if the Eldar were all Chaos'd up, but I'm more talking about an Eldar list simply being made utilise Daemon summoning with no work done to explain why it has a place in their army.

Any list can be fluffy with the right narative

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Not simply Min/Max or spammy lists but lists that actively go against the fluff, like Necrons allied with Orks or Eldar lists built around summoning daemons. Or pretty much any force that includes a Come the Apocalypse allies.

I'm asking because I am building a Genestealer Cult/Tyranid Vanguard army and I need to find 300pts to bring the army up to 1850, so I'm looking at adding 2 Vindicare Assassins. It's totally unfluffy but there is no other formation I could take and a Tyranid allied detachment forces me to buy a *shudder* Warrior Prime.

Would you roll your eyes at someone just throwing together random forces for either power levels or points? It's more understandable if there is a lot of conversion effort to give the army identiry, for example if the Eldar were all Chaos'd up, but I'm more talking about an Eldar list simply being made utilise Daemon summoning with no work done to explain why it has a place in their army.

I would definitely roll my eyes at that.

Depends on the intent/content of the list - I remember watching a batrep that had a Space Wolves/Eldar/Dark Eldar alliance and was obviously built to cheese. That was just horrible. That said, if it's just a fun list with a variety, that is a different story.

If you model the assassin to also look like he's got some genestealer mutations going on, I wouldn't have a problem.

I like fluffy armies, but I have an open mind. In the end, its your money and your hobby, so do what you like.

In a friendly game yes
In a tournament most of the time still yes if you make them look like they fit it's less offensive to me and if you do enough work on the conversion I might even like it.

But then I am a chaos player who has over 10k points of only one god.
But am making a Tau assassin if I can ever get a cheep finecast shadowsun on eBay for the core

I'd raise my eyebrow at an unfluffy list, but if I'm looking for a game, then it doesn't really matter to me.

Me, I sometimes add my Vindicare assassin to my ork lists to give them some Ranged strength, or the ability to pick off key guys. However, whenever I play him, I'm sure to tell my opponent that he's using the Orks as a cover, and that he'll kill my warboss at the end of the game if I win.

Really cool conversions and stuff gets a pass from me. like converted really cool looking assassins.

I see nothing wrong with a genestealer hybrid sniper

If work has gone into it then fair enough, or if there's a back story etc.


However, if people are mashing everything together for a power build in friendly game then yes, I would roll my eyes.

I don't care. I build my army so that I enjoy it, you build yours so that you enjoy it. It's your plastic men.

Not even a little.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
Depends on the intent/content of the list - I remember watching a batrep that had a Space Wolves/Eldar/Dark Eldar alliance and was obviously built to cheese. That was just horrible. That said, if it's just a fun list with a variety, that is a different story.

I saw that some video and stopped watching the moment the guy finished his list. Now I really dont care about unfluffy lists because few things are going to be unfluffy with enough narrative, but when its just blatantly power gaming in a none tourney set up I would be annoyed by it. Like really? However I guarantee you if his army was made up of Orks, CSM and Tyranids as allies nobody would have hated on him for it.

Actually.

I have a suggestion for the OP:

If you must insist on this unholy heresy, at the very least...

Paint the assassins to look tyrranidy.

You could claim that they were infected by genestealer mind control parasites or something.

Very encouraged and pleased by the "do whatever you want" responses. I feel the same way.

 Guardsmen Bob wrote:
I'd raise my eyebrow at an unfluffy list, but if I'm looking for a game, then it doesn't really matter to me.

Me, I sometimes add my Vindicare assassin to my ork lists to give them some Ranged strength, or the ability to pick off key guys. However, whenever I play him, I'm sure to tell my opponent that he's using the Orks as a cover, and that he'll kill my warboss at the end of the game if I win.

"Don't worry, space marines of the Celestial Lions. You may see or hear snipers out there, but they're after the Warboss! Make sure all your apothecaries are there to help with the wounded!"


I think almost anything human can fit into a genestealer cult. Say the Vindicare got lost/stranded on a Space Hulk and slowly fell to the influence of the stealers or something.

Assassins are probably the easiest ally to fit in to every army from a fluff perspective. Just model them appropriately and you're done. It's not like the Imperium has a patent on assassination.

In a universe where, according to fluff, Blood Angels ally with Necrons, what is unfluffy if you make up the right narrative?

Yes....yes I do.

Sure, someone can win with the ultimate cheeze list, but to win with a fluffly list -- that takes style!

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Not simply Min/Max or spammy lists but lists that actively go against the fluff, like Necrons allied with Orks or Eldar lists built around summoning daemons. Or pretty much any force that includes a Come the Apocalypse allies.

Usually yes. If it's just a random "for giggles" game, then whatever, but really, this game exists because of its background (certainly not for the game mechanics and rules), and mucking with that really detracts from the gaming experience.

Absolutely yes. The rules and gameplay of 40k aren't all that much fun actually. The only thing that makes 40k as fun as it is (aside from the minis) is the fluff. Fluff is important.

It's their game/time/models and they can do as they please with it.

However I definitely do look down on people who bring cheese monger lists outside of a tournament setting. Nothing wrong with a little competition, but if it's totally immersion breaking then im out. I can't really look down at an all Eldar, Tau or necron army for example because technically those units could all be present in a single army. But I would look down at Taudar or a mix and match of different space marine formations just to get a Space Wolf Death Star with some biker libby's. You're not even trying at that point.

Ive only just got back into 40k, and the idea of allies did surprise me a bit.

But I think there is a pretty clear distinction for me, between:

People who bring a list that is not traditionally fluffy, but they did so because of their own narrative or created army identity

and

People who just included another unit from another army because it is currently the over powered unit in the game.

The first I have no problem with, and actually makes the game really interesting in my view.. sure have some genesteeler assasins in your army that you have a good background behind. that sounds awesome.

The second just screems of a child who always wants the best toys, and complete lack of loyalty. I hate seeing a list of X with a random riptide wing thrown in just because its a great unit at the moment.. or a list of X with random titans in, just because well.. they are good.

The 40K background allows for an awful lot of flexibility where army backgrounds are concerned.

SO no, I don't 'look down' on anyone for choosing to play toy soldiers using a narrative I don't personally agree fits my preconceived notions of the background.


Just about any army that you can think of can be fit into the background with a bare minimum of effort. And even if they couldn't be, you can as easily call it a 'what if...?' scenario and forget about the background.


An Eldar psyker consorting with Slaanesh Daemons in the middle of an Ork Horde allied with Genestealers is ultimately only less fluffy than, say, Ultramarines fighting other Ultramarines if you choose to make it so.

Some of the unfluffy stuff can be made fluffy fairly easily. For example, if Space Marine Librarians are summoning Daemons, just say that these Marines are from the mirror 40k universe and they all have beards under their helmets.

If they come up with a story for it it's cool. If they're going random units unbound, I may not want to play with them much (as I'd imagine they'd be trying to make power lists).

 Purifier wrote:
I don't care. I build my army so that I enjoy it, you build yours so that you enjoy it. It's your plastic men.

But, but... you're using your plastic men all wrong. If you don't play the right way with your plastic men I don't want to play you.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
It's their game/time/models and they can do as they please with it.

However I definitely do look down on people who bring cheese monger lists outside of a tournament setting. Nothing wrong with a little competition, but if it's totally immersion breaking then im out. I can't really look down at an all Eldar, Tau or necron army for example because technically those units could all be present in a single army. But I would look down at Taudar or a mix and match of different space marine formations just to get a Space Wolf Death Star with some biker libby's. You're not even trying at that point.

Pretty much this. In your case OP, I would try a little conversion work on a single vindicare and find a better use for the last 150 pts. A little bit of modelling and a creative imagination go a long way. Cheddar usually just sits where it is getting odd looks

In the examples given, yes I absolutely look down on those lists. Abusing the allies system is bad enough with Flesh Tearer Drop Pods being used as AdMech's Uber, but taking something like Vindicares in a Nid list where even the rules don't have your back, I absolutely don't want to hear about the army. Just get the game over with and we can both move on.

Exception, also as was mentioned, is with conversions. Put the effort into it and I don't care about the rules anymore. Make an Imperial Knight with enough Nid bits on it, and I've seen one online where it looking like a Deathleaper or Warrior was piloting the thing, and that's kosher as a pickle. In a friendly game, I'd even disregard the Come the Apocalypse rule when it's my opponent's model, just cause I like the effort put into it.

Most super unfluffy armies seem silly/cheesy to me, but my personal exception would be the assassins.
One of them sent out to kill one dude, who just to happens to be under attack by some other army at the same time. In your case, a Vindicare was waiting to kill his target and some Tyranids came along and attacked his target's forces, so he can pick off the dude then try to escape the Nids himself

Yeah, I play Tyranids and have to say that really bothers me. While the backstory explains it fair enough, the initial impetus wasn't the story. It was to put a stronger unit on the board, which you admitted was the original motivation.

Generally speaking I don't care for blatant disregard of fluff for the purposes of game advantage. I do like the ITC's rule that no Come the Apocalypse Allies are allowed. Unless you're playing an Apocalypse game just avoid it to maintain the thematic narrative. If you take the time to convert I'm more willing to bend, though. A four-armed Assassin would be interesting to see on the table... though you may want to convert him with only three so his BS doesn't drop to 0.