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As it states above

On the leaked rules, it states it can replace "any space marine" as a free upgrade.....

would this include assault space marines, with jump packs, space marine bikers, Space marine captains/chapter masters etc.....

(I'm thinking of a conversion or two)

You need to find a model named "Space Marine". Look at the army list entry. As an example, you can't replace a Tactical Squad's Sergeant because he's not a "Space Marine". He's a "Space Marine Sergeant".

In other words, most of your basic dudes can be replaced. Most of your non basic dudes can't be replaced.

I'm also unsure why you would want to replace your chapter master for a one wound marine with power armour on,

Same with replacing a biker, you then replace him with an infantry model and slow the entire unit,

I wonder... does that mean you could equip him with a Jump Pack by placing him with an Assault Squad?

I mean if you replace one Space Marine with the Imperial Space Marine you have a unit composition of 3 Space Marines, 1 Imperial Space Marine and 1 Space Marine Sergeant, and the Assault Squad options say, "The entire squad may take jump packs".

You know, I think you're right about that.
Interesting. Probably not intended (or maybe it is?), but still interesting.

So, basically, he can be deployed in Tactical Squads, Assault Squads, and Devastator squads, seeing how all other units are veterans or have equipment included in their stats?

Is he unique or could you drop pod a Tac Squad with Sarge and 9 Imperial Marines (repeat for additional Tac Squads) in front of the enemy?

Hanskrampf wrote:Is he unique or could you drop pod a Tac Squad with Sarge and 9 Imperial Marines (repeat for additional Tac Squads) in front of the enemy?

The model's unit type is 'Infantry (Unique)'.

Matt.Kingsley wrote:You know, I think you're right about that.
Interesting. Probably not intended (or maybe it is?), but still interesting.

Almost certainly not intended, but amusing.

Throw him in with a Skyhammer Devastator or Assault Squad.

Have just put mine together tonight, with the exception of the backpack. Might throw a magnet on the back so I can swap around for a laugh!

Maybe this is being cynical but personally, things like this are not something that I would be willing to let someone proxy. Let the people who paid the $30 dollars for the model enjoy it; As is its intent.

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Maybe this is being cynical but personally, things like this are not something that I would be willing to let someone proxy. Let the people who paid the $30 dollars for the model enjoy it; As is its intent.

That's a "pay to win" argument, as in "those that pay for it can use it". If anyone can use it with simple conversion, it's no longer pay to win, just a personal choice.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Maybe this is being cynical but personally, things like this are not something that I would be willing to let someone proxy. Let the people who paid the $30 dollars for the model enjoy it; As is its intent.

That's a "pay to win" argument, as in "those that pay for it can use it". If anyone can use it with simple conversion, it's no longer pay to win, just a personal choice.

SJ

To some degree that is what any game is no? MTG for example, not everyone can afford the <insert expensive card> of the current standard, so the players that compete will be buying those and others won't.

I am 100% okay with normal proxies, but this is not a normal proxy model, in my opinion anyway.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Maybe this is being cynical but personally, things like this are not something that I would be willing to let someone proxy. Let the people who paid the $30 dollars for the model enjoy it; As is its intent.

That's a "pay to win" argument, as in "those that pay for it can use it". If anyone can use it with simple conversion, it's no longer pay to win, just a personal choice.

SJ

To some degree that is what any game is no? MTG for example, not everyone can afford the <insert expensive card> of the current standard, so the players that compete will be buying those and others won't.

I am 100% okay with normal proxies, but this is not a normal proxy model, in my opinion anyway.

I disagree that any game is pay to win - some games may be suffering of so much power creep that they [i]almost[/i ] become pay to win. However, I am unsure if 40k is in that state already (it's close, imo, but not yet there). This fella, however is clearly a Pay to Win situation if you want to follow it RAW.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Maybe this is being cynical but personally, things like this are not something that I would be willing to let someone proxy. Let the people who paid the $30 dollars for the model enjoy it; As is its intent.

That's a "pay to win" argument, as in "those that pay for it can use it". If anyone can use it with simple conversion, it's no longer pay to win, just a personal choice.

SJ

To some degree that is what any game is no? MTG for example, not everyone can afford the <insert expensive card> of the current standard, so the players that compete will be buying those and others won't.

I am 100% okay with normal proxies, but this is not a normal proxy model, in my opinion anyway.

Wahammer 40k isn't like a CCG. It's more like an LCG. For those of you who don't know the difference, Collectible Card Games generally have fixed price, randomized packs where you have no idea what you're buying. If you're unlucky, or need something that is no longer in print, you'll potentially spend an inflated price on the secondary market. Living Card Games also have fixed price, but non-randomized packs. You know exactly what you're buying. All expansions remain in print for the life of the game. There is no secondary market.

Allowing proxies of limited edition models and allowing printouts of limited edition rules eliminates this discrepancy and gives everyone access to these models that are otherwise limited availability. Saying that players need to have the actual rules and the actual model breaks the player base into two parts... the haves and the have nots and ultimately undermines the game in a lot of people's minds.

 Kriswall wrote:

Wahammer 40k isn't like a CCG. It's more like an LCG. For those of you who don't know the difference, Collectible Card Games generally have fixed price, randomized packs where you have no idea what you're buying. If you're unlucky, or need something that is no longer in print, you'll potentially spend an inflated price on the secondary market. Living Card Games also have fixed price, but non-randomized packs. You know exactly what you're buying. All expansions remain in print for the life of the game. There is no secondary market.

Allowing proxies of limited edition models and allowing printouts of limited edition rules eliminates this discrepancy and gives everyone access to these models that are otherwise limited availability. Saying that players need to have the actual rules and the actual model breaks the player base into two parts... the haves and the have nots and ultimately undermines the game in a lot of people's minds.

Comparison to an LCG is a very well put comparison. Some people can afford buying the Skatach Wraithknight and some people can't. Some people save for a year and finally buy one just to see someone else kitbash a bunch of random bits together and call it the same thing. I guess that is where I am coming from. That in and of itself is two player groups, i realize this. I love the hobby side of this game, and applaud well put together models and conversions.

I suppose what i am trying to say is there is a place for conversions and a place without them, and its totally up to the group and players to decide which place they want to be in. I am not saying one is right and one is wrong.

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Some people save for a year and finally buy one just to see someone else kitbash a bunch of random bits together and call it the same thing.

And they will still have the spiffy, expensive model, and their opponent will have a kitbashed version. Not seeing the problem here.

You see exactly the same thing with card games... some people will shell out $200 for that one special card... and others will just shove a piece of paper with the card name written on it in sharpie into a card sleeve and call it close enough.




For the original question, this is something that's been an issue with GW rules since at least second edition. There's an argument that 'Space Marine' should mean 'anything that has the exact name ('Space Marine') on its profile line. There's another argument that 'Space Marine' would mean, well, any Space Marine. As in, any marine in a Space Marine army.

GW rules clarifications have tended to flipflop somewhat on related issues from time to time, although they have tended to go more towards the profile name being the key. Unit entries, for example would usually specify 'Space Marine' and 'Sergeant' separately for upgrades, or use 'any model' if it's supposed to include them both.

So the fact that they've gone with 'Space Marine' rather than 'any infantry model in a Space Marine army' suggests that they probably just mean anything specifically called 'Space Marine'.

insaniak wrote:And they will still have the spiffy, expensive model, and their opponent will have a kitbashed version. Not seeing the problem here.

I have absolutely no idea how this would work.

A combi-disintegrator isn't really something you can get from a box of tactical marines.

Traditio wrote:

insaniak wrote:And they will still have the spiffy, expensive model, and their opponent will have a kitbashed version. Not seeing the problem here.

I have absolutely no idea how this would work.

A combi-disintegrator isn't really something you can get from a box of tactical marines.

That's why you kitbash it

CrownAxe wrote:That's why you kitbash it

From what? I don't understand.

Traditio wrote:

insaniak wrote:And they will still have the spiffy, expensive model, and their opponent will have a kitbashed version. Not seeing the problem here.

I have absolutely no idea how this would work.

A combi-disintegrator isn't really something you can get from a box of tactical marines.

It's a steampunk combi melta with a combat knife stuck to it. Take out the steam punk partand what have you got?

Indeed. A reasonable facsimile would be a 5-minute conversion job with an autogun and a bolter.

Traditio wrote:

insaniak wrote:And they will still have the spiffy, expensive model, and their opponent will have a kitbashed version. Not seeing the problem here.

I have absolutely no idea how this would work.

A combi-disintegrator isn't really something you can get from a box of tactical marines.

Its super easy to kit bash a combi-disintegrator, using GW 40k parts with some guitar string for the conduit.

SJ

Traditio wrote:

CrownAxe wrote:That's why you kitbash it

From what? I don't understand.

I think they mean what you might more strictly define as converting.

for tournament play, you have to bite the bullet and have the model + rules. Friendly games anything goes IMO. My rule of thumb is and always has been; if GW makes a model for said unit you plan on using, use it, or have a REALLY good/cool conversion. But playing this guy without the official rules(i.e. originals), would be like showing up to a tourny with only a downloaded(illegal) version of a codex. You just don't do it.

 insaniak wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Some people save for a year and finally buy one just to see someone else kitbash a bunch of random bits together and call it the same thing.

And they will still have the spiffy, expensive model, and their opponent will have a kitbashed version. Not seeing the problem here.

You see exactly the same thing with card games... some people will shell out $200 for that one special card... and others will just shove a piece of paper with the card name written on it in sharpie into a card sleeve and call it close enough.




For the original question, this is something that's been an issue with GW rules since at least second edition. There's an argument that 'Space Marine' should mean 'anything that has the exact name ('Space Marine') on its profile line. There's another argument that 'Space Marine' would mean, well, any Space Marine. As in, any marine in a Space Marine army.

GW rules clarifications have tended to flipflop somewhat on related issues from time to time, although they have tended to go more towards the profile name being the key. Unit entries, for example would usually specify 'Space Marine' and 'Sergeant' separately for upgrades, or use 'any model' if it's supposed to include them both.

So the fact that they've gone with 'Space Marine' rather than 'any infantry model in a Space Marine army' suggests that they probably just mean anything specifically called 'Space Marine'.

Agreed there is often lack of consistency on this, even within a single codex!

In chaos space marines it is accepted that 'may upgrade a '[model name]' only applies to that specific model name and not the squad leader (where as 'model' applies to everyone in the squad, including the leader). However, applying that interpretation elsewhere in the codex results in silliness like the possessed champion not benefit from the possessed's bonus table. Frustratingly inconsistent.

LinkXx wrote:
for tournament play, you have to bite the bullet and have the model + rules. Friendly games anything goes IMO. My rule of thumb is and always has been; if GW makes a model for said unit you plan on using, use it, or have a REALLY good/cool conversion. But playing this guy without the official rules(i.e. originals), would be like showing up to a tourny with only a downloaded(illegal) version of a codex. You just don't do it.

This was a much better way of saying what I was trying to say!

It's not actually true, though.

Most tournaments are fine with conversions, stand-ins or scratch-builds so long as they are representative of what they are supposed to be.

Yeah I'm not paying 30 bucks for one marine. If tournies allow him, I'll just convert a tac marine and print the rules. Really hoping they just don't allow him though.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Yeah I'm not paying 30 bucks for one marine. If tournies allow him, I'll just convert a tac marine and print the rules. Really hoping they just don't allow him though.

Why not? it is one model with one wound and a 3+ armor save...

Because he's got a rapid fire instant death gun and pistol, which you get for free. What marine tournament list wouldn't take it?

Not that my opinion matters, but I think this breaks the game down into two different categories of play (as others before have discussed).

You either go with the pay-to-win, or in this case, pay for premium content like many "free games" do, and require the ACTUAL $30 model in order to get the special marine.

Or...

Allow people to kit-bash and bring counts-as and be flooded with them, which would suck for any non-marine players.

I'm not a fan of the pay-to-win marketing strategy, even more so in tournament play. As a person who has a very finite about of cash to spend on the hobby/competitive game, it is already bad enough when the meta shifts or a new codex drops and you basically have to buy new models to be competitive.

If there was a vote, I personally would say that it shouldn't be allowed at tournaments period. Stops the trend of premium content being led by competitive play and is more fare to all races.

Again, not that my opinion really matters in the grand scheme.

Another option beyond the 3 you list (official only, kitbash or not at all) is the TO expanding which models can be swapped out for the imperial space marine (to include things such as ork boyz, chaos space marines. etc) or even looking at other old 'first for the faction' models and creating rules for them, so every faction gets to have a similar free upgrade.