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I want to know what you think are the broken parts of the 40k core rulebook, why you think they are broken, and how you would fix them. I put an example below.

Vehicles get glanced to death too easily. Possibly increasing the hull points of vehicles by 50% (round up). This would allow vehicles to last longer and possibly make anti vehicle weapons more useful again.

If you think a rule needs to be added, put that in there as well and why you think it needs to be added.

This is not a thread for trying to fix a codex that may or may not be overpowered, nor is it a thread to spew hatred over certain units that may or may not be balanced. Please leave those kind of posts at home please.

Assault is restricted too much. Being a passenger gets you killed if you step out through the doors. Overwatch is fine, but a couple more special exceptions how flamers get more shots would be nice. Hatch-mounted guns getting overwatch would be good, maybe.

 Skinnereal wrote:
Assault is restricted too much. Being a passenger gets you killed if you step out through the doors. Overwatch is fine, but a couple more special exceptions how flamers get more shots would be nice. Hatch-mounted guns getting overwatch would be good, maybe.

I had an idea for that one actually.

Remove Assault Vehicle rule from the game. All transports may move 6", unload their passengers, and the the passengers may choose to shoot or assault 1d6". Transports could still move 12" like normal but not be able to unload any dudes.

 Xerics wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
Assault is restricted too much. Being a passenger gets you killed if you step out through the doors. Overwatch is fine, but a couple more special exceptions how flamers get more shots would be nice. Hatch-mounted guns getting overwatch would be good, maybe.

I had an idea for that one actually.

Remove Assault Vehicle rule from the game. All transports may move 6", unload their passengers, and the the passengers may choose to shoot or assault 1d6". Transports could still move 12" like normal but not be able to unload any dudes.

I think an easier way is to just make any charges made from a non-assault vehicle to count as disordered. That way Land Raiders and Battlewagons have some measure of reason for their premium price tag by giving the full benefits of assault to their units while less dedicated transports allow you to make that charge but prevent you from steamrolling the unit.

Another broken part is not being able to assault out of reserve like outflanking or other things like infiltrating for units like genestealers that need that charge to actually do something. I would say do the same thing ala transports and make them count as disordered charges if they do so on the turn they arrive.

Regarding hull points, I'm a fan of saying that glancing hits do not remove hull points but instead force you to roll on the damage table with a -3 modifier on the table. This way you actually have to penetrate to do any meaningful damage rather than scatter laser your way through vehicles. Vehicles in general should have a 3+ save IMO, with Skimmers having a 4+ armour save. This is again, to mitigate the low AP but high S spam method of plinking down vehicles, while allowing lascannons and other single shot weapons greater utility.

I'm also not a fan of the dip-your-toe-in cover system for MC, make it so they need 25% coverage like vehicles. Walkers should have the ability to move up to 12" and only be able to snapfire their weapons or go 6" and fire everything at full BS. Give them MTC cover base and Smash and they're on even footing for most MC. MC themselves should have a similar damage table to Walkers, for every wound you have to roll and see what happens.

I think it would be quicker to talk about the balanced parts of 40k.

 Frozocrone wrote:
I think it would be quicker to talk about the balanced parts of 40k.

There is a lack of contribution to the thread here.

 Frozocrone wrote:
I think it would be quicker to talk about the balanced parts of 40k.

It really would be:
[Silence]

Anyway, back on topic:

The Hull Points mechanic needs to go. Just get rid of it. Make a '6' on the damage table result in a KO'd vehicle and add in a -3 penalty on the roll for Glancing hits.

Eldar need a massive nerf and points increase.

Tau need the same

Marines need to stop getting all the toys

Invisibility needs to reduce you to WS and BS 1 when attacking the invisible unit, or preferably be removed all together

Denying psychic powers needs to be easier

Psykers need to revert back to 3rd/4th/5th mechanics. No more 'roll many dice' castings.

Vehicles need to be able to overwatch and do so at BS 2/3.

'Pinning' actually needs to affect more than 10% of all units

Losing 50% of a squad needs to inflict a -2 penalty on its LD, 75% a -4. And you should need a LD check each 25% lost.

Combat needs speeding up

Challenges need to be removed OR make it so that extra wounds do not spill over. Right now my regular opponent uses Challenges as a way of ensuring he gets many kills whilst at the same time ensuring that his character is essentially immune to reprisal. (he runs super close combat characters with their melee abilities turned up to '11' through gear. I regularly lose half a section+Sarge to one single character)

Put a lot more limitations on Deep Striking and make it exceptionally dangerous (IE: You scatter into terrain/a unit [friend or foe] and every model that contacts it is dead and the rest have to roll for mishap)

Have outflanking require a LD check from the unit to come in, with a -1 penalty (works very well in BA)

Make grav a blast weapon and reword the rules so that it can only ever cause immobilised results on vehicles and extra immobilised results from grav never cause HP loss/extra damage.

Have jetbikes reduced to taking only one heavy weapon in every five bikes

If a unit cannot hurt its opponent in close combat then allow it to disengage voluntarily (Well, my guys will happily spend several turns being smooshed by your dread ehilst they are unable to fight back because they lack even Krak grenades)

Remove maelstrom and bring back the old 4th edition missions.

There sure is a lot of stuff here but only about half have fixes and a lot also came from the codexes (like the Eldar, Tau and Space Marine stuff). Try and stick to the core rules only please.

Terrain rules are a mess imo.
GMC toe in cover=save.
Vehicle in same cover=no save.
Model 99% out of LoS but can see a single eyeball=save.
Area cover VS buildings VS player made=unbalanced/unclear.
Moving through over solid walls/terrain features=confused and unbalanced.
Terrain type classifications=unclear.
Battlefield terrain (craters, forests, gun emplacements) with their own rules=confusing and cheesy in places.
TLoS VS abstract ideals=not working at all.

I could go on but.

The allies matrix is one of the most broken parts due to IoM shenanigans

Here is an overview of the actual core rules that are not optimal for the current game play of 40k. IMO.

The alternating game turn mechanic ,(IGO/UGO) does not allow enough player interaction.

Alternating phases, keeps the phases players know and understand but interleaved them to improve player interaction.

The stat line does not cover enough of the units abilities, or allow units to interact with enough detail.
Despite this limited and restrictive level of interaction, the core rules use 5 different resolution methods for combat!(Excluding direct representation.)

7-BS to hit at range.
WS vs WS to hit in assault.
S vs T stat to wound.
2D6 under LD for morale.
AP lower than armour save value to ignore armour save value completely.

Resulting in very complicated rules that deliver very restricted game play.

Before GW add on several layers of complication with additional rules for vehicles, and over EIGHTY special rules that are poorly worded and implemented....

IF we can agree that the current game play of 40k should promote an equal focus on mobility firepower and assault.So all units are useful.

Then using a stat line that generates detailed and tactical interaction , using direct representation and ONE other resolution method.(Opposed values on a universal resolution chart for all combat resolution.)

Would allow much more diversity in units without the need for special rules.And reduce complication and rules bloat, while adding much needed tactical depth.

However. I am of the opinion that the 'big toys' from 6th and 7th ed would be better in an expansion like Apoc used to be .

Because random pick up games for new players,that are balanced enough to be fun.
Are much easier to arrive at without all the excesses 6th and 7th ed forced into the game.

I am a fan of the background and the game play the background seems to imply.

I however, an not impressed with GWs determination to use a WHFB based rule set , after 40k has evolved well beyond its 'WHFB in Space' origins.

-Assault is too hindered by multiple things:
Overwatch needs a downside like being unable to fire next round, random charge range needs to be less random like having minimum of your initiative. (I could see orks tripping over one another in random humorous fashion, but not eldar or marines.) Furious charge could stand to be unnerfed, and too many things outright deny assault when they could just reduce charge range or cause a disordered charge. Weapon skill chart needs to be reworked so the most skilled fighters in the galaxy can hit tau fire warriors more than 2/3 of the time and not get hit back a lot. Melee weapons are hilariously overcosted given their inability to do anything until several turns into the game, and only if they survive to that point.

-Inversely, shooting is too easy:
Cover needs to affect BS so high-str-bad-AP spam shots are actually affected. If assault is going to be denied from showing up on the table, shooting shouldn't be able to wipe a unit upon showing up either. Ignores cover needs a nerf. You should be able to shoot into combat on a passed leadership, the penalty for which is that your unit in the combat disperses and flees the battle immediately after, but not before providing cover for the enemy.

-Shooty monstrous creatures benefit from the MC rules suite on the melee side too much:
Lower strength and/or remove smash from things like riptides that are -supposed- to be weak in melee. Riptides should not be beating fully healthy death company dreadnoughts or melee special characters that cost as much as the tide does in melee combat.

-Monstrous creatures are way out of line compared to similarly costed vehicles:
This has a multi-choice fix, a couple of them being to hit the MC's with a random damage table, or buff vehicles by nerfing or removing their table. (And fixing hull points)

-No one should be able to get a non-ignorable save (invuln) of better than 3+, and no one should be able to get a re-roll on saves period:
As stated.

-Formations provide too much at no cost, including the ability to bypass mediocre tax units in some cases:
Make them cost something or ditch them altogether.

-Multiple movements take too long:
Add run to movement phase at the very least. Make assault jet moves fixed 6" to at least reduce rolling and measuring time.

-random pregame stuff is dumb, takes too long, and the unpredictability sometimes ruins entire games:
Balance warlord traits and psychic powers, and allow them to be picked during list creation.

-Psychic blessings (aka the best powers) are too hard to stop for non-psyker armies, adamant will doesn't do enough, and the psychic phase in general is too randomy random and time-wasting:
Return psychic powers to older versions where they were simply used in the relevant phase. To deny, a unit with a psyker, Ada will, or one farther away with a hood needs to be close by to the target or the caster. Multiple units may pool their denial attempts, (omg BT relevant?) but only one denial per unit per turn. As above, powers need to be reworked so that auto-take fortune/invis tier powers don't exist.

-game has rules that literally break:
Errata and post online.

-game is out of balance in general on the codex level:
Errata and post online. Casual players can ignore it and stick to books if they want. Organized play uses the latest errata, just like every other game ever.

-superheavies in normal games:
1/3 the cost of your army or less in superheavies. If you want all Knights, play some apocalypse.

That's pretty much it.

 Xerics wrote:
There sure is a lot of stuff here but only about half have fixes and a lot also came from the codexes (like the Eldar, Tau and Space Marine stuff). Try and stick to the core rules only please.

Stick to the core rules? You asked for broken and you got it. There is almost nothing that is not broken right now, down the individual codexes. Compare Bullgryns and Thunderwolf Cavalry. Both have the same base number of wounds and toughness. However the Thunderwolf brigade have better armour, better weapons, more attacks and a shed load of special rules which all come together to form one of the deadliest CC units out there.
The difference in pricing's? Nothing. Both models cost the exact same.
I cannot stick to the core rules because I am starting to wonder where exactly they are. The rule book itself is a mass of special abilities and special rules that confer another load of special rules and things that counter this but dont counter that and....
Hell. What happened to 40K?

The core rules get broken by undercosted and overcosted units. We can't just discuss core rules.

Martel732 wrote:
We can't just discuss core rules.

Yes we can. That's why they're called core rules. Changes to core rules have knock-on effects on every unit in the game, whereas the under or over powered units being tweaked does not have nearly the same knock-on effect.

Niv-mizzet covered my thoughts pretty well.

In addition, I'd add there's too much random in general that only serves to slow down the game and remove player decision making. Things like running, random wound allocation, warlord traits, psychic powers, and all the weird tables (the pskyer perils table is ridiculous for the amount of rolling).

The entire psyker mechanics are poorly worded and clunky. Not sure what problems the older system had in 5th/6th and why they went to the slow process we have now.

Then entire save mechanic is poorly done between armour saves and cover saves. All or nothing armour saves coupled with an either/or cover save doesn't make a lot of sense and is rather difficult to balance effectively compared to reasonable modifiers. Fixing this would do wonders to armies like marines who depend on good armour saves and would encourage effective use of cover.

But as Frozocrone mentioned, it would be easier to talk about the good/balanced/not broken parts of the rules.

Yeah forgot about the randomness.
Thats actually my biggest bugbear now I think of it.

Martel732 wrote:The core rules get broken by undercosted and overcosted units. We can't just discuss core rules.

Martel has pretty much hit the nail on the head here. It is not just the vore rules but the Codexes themselves that are stupidly broken.

Blacksails wrote:
But as Frozocrone mentioned, it would be easier to talk about the good/balanced/not broken parts of the rules.

Then the discussion would pretty much be over by now :(

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:The core rules get broken by undercosted and overcosted units. We can't just discuss core rules.

Martel has pretty much hit the nail on the head here. It is not just the vore rules but the Codexes themselves that are stupidly broken.

Not arguing the codices aren't a mess too, but it is quite possible to discuss all the issues of the core rules entirely independent of the codices and attempt to fix the glaring issues.

Blacksails wrote:
But as Frozocrone mentioned, it would be easier to talk about the good/balanced/not broken parts of the rules.

Then the discussion would pretty much be over by now :(

 Xerics wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
Assault is restricted too much. Being a passenger gets you killed if you step out through the doors. Overwatch is fine, but a couple more special exceptions how flamers get more shots would be nice. Hatch-mounted guns getting overwatch would be good, maybe.

I had an idea for that one actually.

Remove Assault Vehicle rule from the game. All transports may move 6", unload their passengers, and the the passengers may choose to shoot or assault 1d6". Transports could still move 12" like normal but not be able to unload any dudes.

"assaulting is weak, especially if you're in a vehicle. So how's about we implement a rules change which simultaneously gives shooty oriented armies which couldn't assault out of their transports the option and absolutely curbstomps the already weak assault-reliant armies who can assault out of vehicles!"

Genius.

I'll break it down by section.

1) Certain stats need to be worth more

WS: change the ws/ws roll in cc to gain a shift every point of differential. differential of 0, same as current (4s and 4s). Differential of 1, same as current (higher hits on 3s, lower on 4s). Differential of 2, now higher hits on 3s, lower on 5s. Differential of 3, now higher hits on 2s, lower on 5s. Differential of 4, you go to 2s and 6s, and cap out there.

I: Rework charge difference. Instead of being random, your charge difference is ALWAYS 4"+I. I would also make all run moves be +I instead of +D6. (in all cases of mixed stats, you would use the lowest I in the unit).

LD: needs a more complete overhaul than can be briefly described. You either need to make morale a central mechanic of the game that applies to VERY NEARLY everyone, or remove it entirely. I would be far happier with the former.

2) AP and Ignores Cover

Rework AP. AP5 and 6 is gone. AP4, 3, 2, 1 as they currently are become -1, -2, -3, and -4 to your armor save. -2, -3, and -4 weapons are classified as "anti tank weaponry", more on that later.

Rework ignores cover into cover debuffs. It needs to be easier to debuff cover, but not as easy to remove it entirely.

3) Vehicles and MCs

Rework vehicle damage table. "explodes" result changed to "+D3 wounds". Now any wound caused to a tank or an MC with an anti-tank weapon (defined above) causes a roll on the VDT, with the same bonuses as current AP system.

MCs now roll on VDT if wounded by anti tank weapons.

Tanks need a basic save. Any vehicle with the "tank" type gains a 5+ armor plating save, any vehicle with the "Heavy" type adds +1 to their plating save. Anti tank weaponry ignores plating saves.

4) Assault

Remove random charge distance as described above

Models can assault out of any transport that remained stationary

Models can make disorganized charges out of deep strike or outflank if they forgo shooting.

Running the risk of being pedantic, it depends on what elements you feel are broken of the game like competitive gameplay vs sandbox style play.

"Broken" for me is simply game balance.
The assumption that points value reflects the relative worth of the models or formation in general.
Augmenting abilities also can be applied across a multitude of models or other formations also skewing balance.

We seem to be committed to formations so I say we double-down on them more.
Not a means of "freebie" stuff but a self contained list (no powers leaking out to affect other formations!) where two formations of a similar points value and type (Assault group, Heavy support, Armor... something around that line) would guarantee a fairly close fight army to army, formation to formation.

Plus the answer to Monstrous Creatures and Armor: take a page from Bolt Action and just extend the "to wound" to higher values.
The stronger weapons have a higher strength so are more capable of damage.

I think Bolt Action rules applied to 40k would be awesome, including their method of unit activation rather than I-go you-go.

Lets keep overwatch as it is, but kill off this random charge range! And not kill off the closest model in the unit. That should balance out (at least compared to what we have) the shooting vs assault. I play a mostly assault based Daemon army (although I fly a lot). And I'm not too terribly worried about overwatch. But random charges is sucky, and removing closest model is what made me sell all my Marines. Daemons lets me work around as I run units with no champions or big single-model jerks. Killing the closest model means I lose a horror or I lose a Bloodthirster; which would be the same thing if I took from the back of the unit. I found a way to work around what I hate of 6th and 7th edition. But I'd still like the assault change, but I do feel overwatch should be kept; and I have NO models that overwatch.

 Skinnereal wrote:
Assault is restricted too much. Being a passenger gets you killed if you step out through the doors. Overwatch is fine, but a couple more special exceptions how flamers get more shots would be nice. Hatch-mounted guns getting overwatch would be good, maybe.

Assault army just won adepticon...

last 3 times an assault army won too.....

both players are very consistently placing with exclusively assaulty armies....

See, that's why I like playing an assault-based army! Most people expect to shoot me off the board...then I roll a 2++/rerollable save for my Screamers, and just roll through everything they hit. Yes, I know it's dirty to run that. Yes, I know a possible 2++ with a reroll is something the game shouldn't have. Hell, the final turn of my last game they TECHNICALLY had a 1++ (cursed earth, roll of 10 on daemon chart, grimoire). I lost a single Screamer in the entire game. I know they're foul.

I think I had a point somewhere. Assault is still good. And it seems to be a semi-well kept secret.

As a game; there is too much to keep track of. Each unit has 3 or 4 different lists of special rules that go with rules for the unit (e.g unit type, weapons, army wide rules) all spread over several parts of multiple books. I don't think I've seen many TURNS where something was not forgotten.

40k needs to be simplified, as in 40k 8th should be to 40k 7th what KoW is to WFB 8th.

If players keep forgetting a rule it shouldn't be there.

Psychic powers, formations and allies. Those rules are the source of a lot of the abuse in 40k. Not all of it, granted, but the rest would require a lot of rebalancing.

Random warlord traits. I should get to fething pick my warlord traits.

Same with psychic powers.

In terms of core rules, not faction specific mechanics, here is what I would like to see.

Army building...

Almost everything is broken. I'd go back to the old FOC, just ine detachment that everone is built around. If there must be additonal variety, some variants unique to each army but that largely stick to the core of thr FOC (like the GK one) are ok too.

Dump allies, dump formations, dump multiple detachments. Dump it all.


Vehicles.
Go back to the 5E vehicles rules with the 7E snapshot rules and 7E effects on passengers. Allow assaults from stationary closed top transports. HP's just need to be dumped. Allow Overwatch from weapons in arc of fire.

Wound Allocation
Go back to 4E with this, its way too gimmicky as it is now for very little non-abuse oriented tactical benefit.

Maelstrom...
Dump it. Dump it all.

SH/GC units
Mandate they are only allowed in games of 2500pts or more, or for specifically tailored scenarios.

Jink. Its simply has way too few downsides for too many units and is useable in situations that really are silly.

FMC's cannot Jink unless actively flying, cannot Jink if they were running around in foot or as a Jump unit.
Cannot Jink in response to Overwatch, and if a unit Jinks the in its subsequent turn it subtracts 2" from its charge distancr and counts as a disordered charge.
Jink effects passengers who may only fire snapshots and assaults from open topped Jinking transports are at -2" distance and count as disordered.

Reserves:
Units may assault from reserves if not outflanking or deep striking. Deep striking Mishap becomes more dangerous and returns to 3E consequences.

Snapshots
Blasts may fire as snapshots but do not benefit from BS reduction. Template weapons may be used in Snapshots but reroll all successful wounds.

Ordnance
Dump the rules that forces all other weapons to snapshot, its a silly holdover from 3E that no longer serves a purpose.

Saves, therea wayyyy too much survivability with some things.
2+ saves of any kind may not be rerolled, Invul and cover saves may not be rerolled if better than 4+.

Feel No Pain
May not ever be better than 4+.

D-Weapons
Restricted only to SH/GC units.

Dangerous Terrain has become basically ignorable and needs teeth again, do not allow armor or cover saves against it.

Psychic Powers need some addressing. Mostly this is specific powers like Invisibility, summoning and Endurance and the like.

Cover acts very strange, MC's should have to be 25% obscured like tanks.

Fearless needs some downside in assaults, try going back to 4E's no retreat wounds based on outnumbering (not 5E's method, that was silly).

I want to say rework Grav, but I think the big thing really is RoF, it just need to be toned down on specific units.

Haywire has become far more widespread than it used to be and could use some toning down, have it only effect vehicles on a 3+ rather than 2+, couoled with a 5E damage chart and no HPs this makes them effective but not autokill weapons.

Return terrain classifications to 5E rules.

Go back to 3E/4E rules for Victory Points of the actual points value of units killed, se we stop valuing a Land Raider and a Drop Pod equally in terms of victory tabulation.


Theres more Im sure but its all I can think of for now

 kronk wrote:
Random warlord traits. I should get to fething pick my warlord traits.

Same with psychic powers.

Agreed. Warlord traits and psychic powers should basically be upgrades that have a determinate points cost that you have to pay to purchase them for a given model.

Naturally, named characters should have warlord traits (e.g., Pedro gets iron resolve) and psychic powers which they automatically get (if Darth Vader were in the game, he should get force choke automatically).

Also. Enough is enough! No more rerollable saves.

You need rerollable saves to survive scatterlasers. Maybe GW noticed this, but only "fixed" it for marines. Idiots. I've had the Eldar force 70 armor saves in a single turn before!