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Let the following be assumed:

1. Riptides are OP

2. Riptides are weeboo space commie wanna be gundams

Therefore, suitable revisions:

A. Make riptides not OP

B. Make riptides into actual gundams.

I propose the following stats for a Riptide in lieu of what they have now:

Name: Mobile Suit Gundam: Riptide
Points cost: 500 points
Unit Type: Flying Walker
Stats: WS: 3 BS: 3, S: 6, Armor: F: 12, S: 12: R: 12. I: 3. A: 4. HP: 3.
Heavy Support Choice

Wargear:

1. Light Saber: Range: - ; S: +4. Melee, Armourbane, Fleshbane, Melta, Specialist Weapon. AP: 1.
2. Repeating ion cannon: Range: 36 ". S: 6. AP: 3. Heavy 3; Large Blast
3. Weeboo gundam machine gun cannon: Range: 36". S: 6. AP: 4. Heavy: 8.*

Special rules: May jink without taking a penalty to BS in the subsequent shooting phase; may declare an assault while zooming.

Must move 18-36" in the movement phase if zooming.

If the Mobile Suit Gundam: Riptide, elects to land, it acquires the movement capabilities, for all rules intents and purposes, of a jump infantry unit. It retains the ability to jink without penalty while so doing.

If Mobile Suit Gundam: If the Riptide declares a charge while zooming, it gains 1D6 hammer of wrath attacks using the light saber.

Mobile Suit Gundam: Riptide may declare an assault against a unit different from the one against which it declared a shooting attack.

Mobile Suit Gundam: Riptide has the splitfire special rule.

The player controlling Mobile Suit Gundam: Riptide, may elect to force the opponent to reroll all results on the vehicle damage table against Mobile Suit Gundam: Riptide. The rerolled result must be accepted. Any result of crew shaken or crew stunned must be ignored.

In order to field Mobile Suit Gundam: Riptide, you must field 1000 points of units other than Mobile Suit Gundam. This rule applies to each Mobile Suit Gundam: Riptide being fielded. (E.g., only 2 Mobile Suit Gundam: Riptides may be fielded in a 3000 point game.)

*Can have skyfire or not. Must declare when firing the weapon.

I'd argue even at 450 points, that's pretty much way OTT offensively, while being quite a bit squishier than the current model. I can't tell if you're kidding about this or not, though - it has a vaguely Jonathan Swiftian feel about it.

I've mooted a couple of variants before, which folks have generally hated, and the debate about whether it's better off as a walker or as jet pack infantry rages. The arguments, as I understand it, boil down to "you can't kill a T6 W5 jet pack infantry model in one shot", and "AV12/13 walkers are the devil because you can't even hurt them in close combat".

I've also never quite been convinced by the "Riptide is supposed to be a Gundam" angle. To me, "Wrathknight is supposed to be an Evangelion" is the far more obvious anime parallel, if we're going for one. But, different strokes for different folks.

But, here we go again:

XV104 Riptide, JPI version - Heavy Support, 180 points

WS2 BS3 S5 T5 W4 I2 A3 Ld9 Sv 2+, Jet Pack Infantry (Character)

Wargear:
Heavy Burst Cannon (Nova-charged version loses Gets Hot)
Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster
Riptide Shield Generator
Nova Reactor
Multi-Tracker
Blacksun Filter

Special Rules:
Hazardous Proximity: An XV104 Riptide battlesuit may not be joined by Independent Characters who are not themselves equipped with Riptide Battlesuits, due to the hazardous radiation emitted by their nova reactors. Additionally, when a Riptide is removed as a casualty, models within 6" suffer a hit at S4 AP- with the Ignores Cover special rule.
Move Through Cover

May take up to two items from the Support Systems list (restrictions as current).

May exchange Heavy Burst Cannon for Cyclic Ion Raker - 15 points
Nova Profile for Cyclic Ion Raker: R24" S9 AP2 Ordnance 1, Large Blast, Gets Hot

May exchange Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster for a Twin-Linked Plasma Rifle - free
May exchange Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster for a Twin-Linked Smart Missile System - 10 points

Squad may include up to two additional XV104 Riptide Battlesuits - 180 points/model

Squad may include up to two shielded missile drones for each XV104 Riptide Battlesuit in the squad - 25 points/model

XV104 Riptide Battlesuit, Jet Pack Walker version - Heavy Support, 250pts

WS2 BS3 S5 AV 13/12/11, I2 A3 HP4, Jet Pack Walker

Wargear:
Heavy Burst Cannon (Nova-charged version loses Gets Hot)
Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster(Nova-charged version loses Gets Hot)
Riptide Shield Generator
Nova Reactor (Failed rolls inflict a penetrating hit at AP-, invulnerable saves allowed but no cover)
Blacksun Filter

Special Rules:
Nova Hazard: When an XV104 Riptide suffers an Explodes! result, the hits it inflicts have the Ignores Cover special rule.
Move Through Cover

May take up to two items from the Support Systems list (except Stimulant Injector)
May take an Automated Hull Reconstruction Array (grants It Will Not Die) - 35 points

May exchange Heavy Burst Cannon for Cyclic Ion Raker - 15 points
Nova Profile for Cyclic Ion Raker: R24" S9 AP2 Ordnance 1, Large Blast, Gets Hot

May exchange Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster for a Twin-Linked Plasma Rifle - free
May exchange Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster for a Twin-Linked Smart Missile System - 10 points

Squad may include up to two additional XV104 Riptide Battlesuits - 250 points/model

Squad may include up to two shielded missile drones for each XV104 Riptide Battlesuit in the squad - 25 points/model

jade_angel wrote:
I can't tell if you're kidding about this or not, though

450 points for av12 and 3 hull points?

Making it a walker vehicle while citing the quintessential exemplar of why it could be started as an MC?

Using 10 year old memes like 'anime fan' in a sentence like it's an actual word used by actual human beings?

And you think he might be kidding?


Traditio, your write up is way off, to the point where it's embarassing: it's not called a lightsaber, in Gundam it's a 'beam saber' - it's like completely different.

Honestly, I give people the benefit of the doubt. But yeah, this seems like either frustrated venting or trolling, or outright parody.

I no longer give Traditio the benefit of the doubt, he has lost that privilege.

jade_angel wrote:
I'd argue even at 450 points, that's pretty much way OTT offensively, while being quite a bit squishier than the current model

And it's a massive nerf from what it can do presently.

Pretty depressing, no?

My alternative proposal is "SQUAT THE TAU!"

*looks at Thing*



Oh this is so terrible. Nearly double its points cost and make it as durable as a flying Dreadnaught. "But it has S 6 AP 3 Large Blats!!" and no one cares, because we are all already in cover.

Well this was good for a laugh.

No, it's not. It has a crapload more offensive power than it has now, but it's squishier. The existing Riptide can't fly, can't zoom, can't jink, gets one HoW attack at S6 AP-, gets a maximum of four CC attacks on the charge at WS2 I2 (S6 AP2, however).

You gave it better WS, A and I, a way better CC weapon (AP1, Fleshbane, Armourbane), better guns mostly (the ion cannon is AP3... Whee?)

So either you're massively confused about what the Riptide can actually do, or you play opponents who cheat like hell, or you're trolling. Please explain to me exactly *how* your proposal is a massive nerf in any way except durability and cost?

Grimmor wrote:Oh this is so terrible. Nearly double its points cost and make it as durable as a flying Dreadnaught.

It would take 3 devoted devastator squads firing flakk missiles roughly 2 full rounds of shooting to kill it.


I mean, it's much less durable than what it is now. But it's completely broken/OP right now.

Let me guess, someone lost a few Space Marine squads to a Riptide recently?

In other words, it's as durable as a Stormraven.

And most SM/BA/GK players that I know gripe that the Stormraven is a million kinds of squishy for its cost. And frankly, it's otherwise pretty well balanced.

So you want me to pay 450 points for Stormraven durability? No. Doubly so with the ridiculous CC profile you give it (for a model that's not meant to be an effective CC fighter), plus both the burst cannon and the ion cannon? Oh, and the ability to charge from zooming? What in the ninth circle of the electric hell are you huffing?

jade_angel wrote:
No, it's not. It has a crapload more offensive power than it has now, but it's squishier. The existing Riptide can't fly, can't zoom, can't jink, gets one HoW attack at S6 AP-, gets a maximum of four CC attacks on the charge at WS2 I2 (S6 AP2, however).

You gave it better WS, A and I, a way better CC weapon (AP1, Fleshbane, Armourbane), better guns mostly (the ion cannon is AP3... Whee?)

So either you're massively confused about what the Riptide can actually do, or you play opponents who cheat like hell, or you're trolling. Please explain to me exactly *how* your proposal is a massive nerf in any way except durability and cost?

1. I reduced its range from 72 to 48 (this should probably be reduced).

2. It has a minimum zoom distance (which should probably be increased).

3. The number of shots it can fire has been significantly reduced.

4. It can actually be killed by devastators now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jade_angel wrote:
In other words, it's as durable as a Stormraven.

And most SM/BA/GK players that I know gripe that the Stormraven is a million kinds of squishy for its cost. And frankly, it's otherwise pretty well balanced.

So you want me to pay 450 points for Stormraven durability? No.

No. If you'll look at the edited version, I want you to pay 500 points for something slightly more durable than a Stormraven (autojink)...

...

If you elect to run one at all.

I actually want you to see the entry in the codex, seriously think about it, and then just get something else instead.

Doubly so with the ridiculous CC profile you give it (for a model that's not meant to be an effective CC fighter), plus both the burst cannon and the ion cannon? Oh, and the ability to charge from zooming? What in the ninth circle of the electric hell are you huffing?

I made it act like a gundam. Have you seen Gundam Wing?

On point #4: Assuming that you arm your Devastators with lascannons instead of missile launchers, three squads with four lascannons each (at BS4, ignoring the signum, Ultras tactics, etc) kill a Riptide as it currently exists in three shooting phases too. Less if it doesn't have FNP and doesn't overcharge its shields.

Reducing the ion cannon from 72" to 48", fair enough, though even at 48", it can still reach most anywhere. Your version, though, fires three S6 AP3 large blasts. The existing one fires one S8 AP2 large blast that gets hot, or three S7 AP2 single shots that don't. Yours is a hell of a lot deadlier to MEQs. It's probably less deadly to tanks and TEQs, but how many folks run a pile of Terminators anymore?

Minimum zoom distance, fine. Easy fix: don't zoom! You can still jink, by your own proposed rules.

#3: What? Just... What? You removed the nova-charged profile for the heavy burst cannon, but seriously, did you consider R36 S6 AP4, Heavy 12, Rending, Gets Hot to be ludicrously OP? Your version gets its HBC equivalent and ion cannon at the same time! The real thing gets either the HBC or the IA, not both, and gets either a TL fusion blaster, TL plasma rifle or TL SMS. That's feckin' it. So, yours fires four less shots with its HBC, relative to the real one, and doesn't have Rending (but doesn't have Gets Hot either), but gets the other main weapon too, which is *much* better against MEQs than the real one.

In what universe is this fewer shots? The Riptide does not get the "I shoot twice" crap that the Stormsurge gets. (And that is OP bs IMHO... I refuse to buy the gorram thing.)

You're confused or your opponent cheats.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, fair enough on "making it act like a Gundam". I suppose it does at that. Trouble is, that's, err, nothing like anything else Tau, which is why I was confused.

If you want a version that folks will regard as entirely useless and refuse to take, look at one of the nerfed versions I posted a long while back (versions that take an AP1 D hit if they fail a nova reactor roll, etc).

I mean, fair enough if you think we should only see infantry with a very few exceptions, but for chaos' sake, say that.

 curran12 wrote:
Let me guess, someone lost a few Space Marine squads to a Riptide recently?

If a 180 point riptide can kill more than a fully manned/upgraded tactical squad before being taken out itself, it's OP/undercosted.

That's not bias.

That's just basic math.

I'd disagree.

A fully-tooled tac squad is around 350 points, but pretty much nobody spends that much on shinies. (My version has a vet sergeant with grav pistol/powerfist/meltabombs, a lasplas Razorback with SB, HKM, extra armor, dozer blade, grav-cannon and grav-gun, and nobody takes all that on one squad.)

A more reasonable tac squad is 235 points assuming full grav and a Rhino.

By contrast, the Riptide is an Elite choice, not Troops, it never gets Objective Secured, and probably cannot actually kill the whole tac squad in one shooting phase without a lot of luck.

It's too cheap, that much I'll agree, but not so much so that the price needs to be more than doubled.

Jade, you're trying to get blood from a stone with this guy. This is pretty par for the course with Traditio.

jade_angel wrote:
On point #4: Assuming that you arm your Devastators with lascannons instead of missile launchers, three squads with four lascannons each (at BS4, ignoring the signum, Ultras tactics, etc) kill a Riptide as it currently exists in three shooting phases too. Less if it doesn't have FNP and doesn't overcharge its shields.

A devastator squad with 4 lascannons costs 150 points. 3 of those is 450 points.

Just to be sure, though, let's do the math. It would take:

2/3 X 5/6 X 2/3 X 1/6 (20/324 = 10/162 = 5/81)...

...or roughly 16 lascannon shots to kill a riptide.

That's actually only 2 lascannon squads firing for two rounds (300 points)

Note, of course, that none of this matters...because lascannons only have 48 inch range.

Reducing the ion cannon from 72" to 48", fair enough, though even at 48", it can still reach most anywhere. Your version, though, fires three S6 AP3 large blasts. The existing one fires one S8 AP2 large blast that gets hot, or three S7 AP2 single shots that don't. Yours is a hell of a lot deadlier to MEQs. It's probably less deadly to tanks and TEQs, but how many folks run a pile of Terminators anymore?

Minimum zoom distance, fine. Easy fix: don't zoom! You can still jink, by your own proposed rules.

#3: What? Just... What? You removed the nova-charged profile for the heavy burst cannon, but seriously, did you consider R36 S6 AP4, Heavy 12, Rending, Gets Hot to be ludicrously OP? Your version gets its HBC equivalent and ion cannon at the same time! The real thing gets either the HBC or the IA, not both, and gets either a TL fusion blaster, TL plasma rifle or TL SMS. That's feckin' it. So, yours fires four less shots with its HBC, relative to the real one, and doesn't have Rending (but doesn't have Gets Hot either), but gets the other main weapon too, which is *much* better against MEQs than the real one.

In what universe is this fewer shots? The Riptide does not get the "I shoot twice" crap that the Stormsurge gets. (And that is OP bs IMHO... I refuse to buy the gorram thing.)

You're confused or your opponent cheats.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, fair enough on "making it act like a Gundam". I suppose it does at that. Trouble is, that's, err, nothing like anything else Tau, which is why I was confused.

If you want a version that folks will regard as entirely useless and refuse to take, look at one of the nerfed versions I posted a long while back (versions that take an AP1 D hit if they fail a nova reactor roll, etc).

I mean, fair enough if you think we should only see infantry with a very few exceptions, but for chaos' sake, say that.

I legitimately do not understand this. On the one hand, you keep gawking at how much firepower it has and are insisting that it's far too much for a 500 point unit. On the other hand, you insist that it's useless because 3 flakk missile launcher devastator squads can take it out in 2 turns.

I legitimately don't get it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jade_angel wrote:
I'd disagree.

A fully-tooled tac squad is around 350 points, but pretty much nobody spends that much on shinies. (My version has a vet sergeant with grav pistol/powerfist/meltabombs, a lasplas Razorback with SB, HKM, extra armor, dozer blade, grav-cannon and grav-gun, and nobody takes all that on one squad.)

A more reasonable tac squad is 235 points assuming full grav and a Rhino.

By contrast, the Riptide is an Elite choice, not Troops, it never gets Objective Secured, and probably cannot actually kill the whole tac squad in one shooting phase without a lot of luck.

It's too cheap, that much I'll agree, but not so much so that the price needs to be more than doubled.

If it consistently can kill the whole tac squad in any number of shooting phases before getting beaten, it's undercosted. 235 points > 180 points.

Again, that's not bias. That's basic math.

My point was that the combination of firepower and durability is really strange at 500 points. (Much in the way I think the combination of firepower and durability of the Revenant Titan is mighty weird at 900 points, though at least that has 9HP and is a SHW).

But, fair enough, I concede, I've been entirely wrong about this whole thing.

jade_angel wrote:
My point was that the combination of firepower and durability is really strange at 500 points. (Much in the way I think the combination of firepower and durability of the Revenant Titan is mighty weird at 900 points, though at least that has 9HP and is a SHW).

But, fair enough, I concede, I've been entirely wrong about this whole thing.

Really?

Is this sincere or sarcastic?

Traditio wrote:


My alternative proposal is "SQUAT THE TAU!"

L2P.

That is all.

Traditio wrote:

If a 180 point riptide can kill more than a fully manned/upgraded tactical squad before being taken out itself, it's OP/undercosted.

That's not bias.

That's just basic math.

No, it's marines played poorly on your part.

You've got plenty bias. Marines die plenty. Especially to big monstrous things with big monstrous nuking guns.

That's sincere. Your point, as I see it, is that the Riptide (and probably also Ghostkeel and Stormsurge, though you didn't actually say that) should not be taken because they're OP, and your alternative succeeds largely in that goal. It's got enough offensive firepower to be tempting, but its cost and squishiness means I'd probably never take it.

I quibble with calling it a nerf because it's so large a shift that it's more like a straight-across delete-and-redo, but if the goal was to create a "look, consider and reject" unit, mission accomplished.

Now, I'm probably not going to grab my kriegsmesser and chop up my Riptide and Ghostkeel models, but I'll certainly avoid taking more than one in casual games.

Traditio wrote:

No. If you'll look at the edited version,

38 edits and counting...

Traditio wrote:

I actually want you to see the entry in the codex, seriously think about it, and then just get something else instead.

When in practise what actually happens is I see this entry in this forum, think about it, and never ever consider actually running such rules.

Traditio wrote:
I made it act like a gundam. Have you seen Gundam Wing?

Have you? The gundams in Wing were notoriously durable in a franchise that already exhibits ludicrous levels of plot armour.

jade_angel wrote:
That's sincere. Your point, as I see it, is that the Riptide (and probably also Ghostkeel and Stormsurge, though you didn't actually say that) should not be taken because they're OP, and your alternative succeeds largely in that goal. It's got enough offensive firepower to be tempting, but its cost and squishiness means I'd probably never take it.

And this is something that you should seriously consider. Why would you take the riptide but not take Mobile Suit Gundam: Riptide?

For all intents and purposes, I think that my proposal is basically balanced. It would die to concentrated fire from roughly its points equivalency in devastator marines.

The flipside to this, of course, is that you can probably make back your 500 points before he dies. In fact, if you take out the devoted anti air squads, he could probably make more than 500 points in terms of killing capacity.

But you'd still pass it over, whereas you don't pass over the Riptide according to its current rules.

Seriously ponder that.

Shame on you for even bringing 1 to a casual game.

Oh, that was uncharitable, sir. I did accuse you of trolling, but you successfully rebutted those accusations.

I will say, I haven't run a Riptide with the ion accelerator in a damn long time. When I do use it, it's mainly as a fire magnet, but increasingly I'm reconsidering even that.

Edit: Ok, that was uncharitable on my part as well.

Perhaps a fair set of restrictions for Tau is this:

Riptide: banned. Stormsurge: Banned. Ghostkeel: 1 model per 3000 points.
Crisis suits: 1 squad/1000 points. Stealth suits: 1 squad/1000 points. Coldstar Commander: Banned.
Hunter Contingent and all associated formations: Banned.
Broadsides: 1 squad/2000 points.
Hammerheads: 1 model per 2000 points. Longstrike: Banned.
Skyrays: 1 model per 500 points.
Pathfinders: 1 squad per 1000 points.
Tidewall (any): Banned
Fire Warrior Breacher Team: Banned

jade_angel wrote:
Oh, that was uncharitable, sir. I did accuse you of trolling, but you successfully rebutted those accusations.

Look, seriously, what the hell do you want me to do, ship you every model I have for destruction as Your Grace sees fit?

I will say, I haven't run a Riptide with the ion accelerator in a damn long time. When I do use it, it's mainly as a fire magnet, but increasingly I'm reconsidering even that.

In all fairness, it's not directed just against you. This really is directed against all Tau and Eldar players.

Why wouldn't you use Mobile Suit Gundam: Riptide?

Why, on the other hand, are riptides an auto-take?

These are open questions.

Mobile Suit Gundam: Riptide is basically balanced.

What's the honest answer to it?

Traditio wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
Oh, that was uncharitable, sir. I did accuse you of trolling, but you successfully rebutted those accusations.

Look, seriously, what the hell do you want me to do, ship you every model I have for destruction as Your Grace sees fit?

I will say, I haven't run a Riptide with the ion accelerator in a damn long time. When I do use it, it's mainly as a fire magnet, but increasingly I'm reconsidering even that.

In all fairness, it's not directed just against you. This really is directed against all Tau and Eldar players.

Why wouldn't you use Mobile Suit Gundam: Riptide?

Why, on the other hand, are riptides an auto-take?

These are open questions.

Mobile Suit Gundam: Riptide is basically balanced.

What's the honest answer to it?

No, it's not balanced, exactly, it's simultaneously too strong and too weak. It will probably make its points back, but when it doesn't, it'll die turn 1, having done nothing at all. (One tachyon arrow shot might delete it instantly - 66% chance of a pen, 33% chance to explode, so not trivial, and a D hit will almost surely kill it). Other times, it'll luck out and do unreasonable damage. It's a little too swingy, in my opinion. Maybe you differ there, but swinginess is the reason I'm not a big fan of Dreadnoughts and Penitent Engines - when they do stuff, they're murderous, but in most games, they're a waste of points, and there's not much in-between.
On the other hand, I practically never regret bringing Sternguard, or Fire Warriors, or Dark Reapers, or Kabalite Warriors, or Scourges. They tend to be quite solid, they almost always do something to justify their cost, even when they don't kill an equal number of points. I wouldn't use the MSG: RT because of its swinginess - in most games I'd feel like a total douche canoe for having a single model do that much damage, and in the others I'd fume when it got popped by an Orbital Bombardment before it can even move. I really don't like that level of all-or-nothing, eggshell-with-a-sledgehammer kind of effect on such an expensive model.

Now I know, I play Dark Eldar and Harlequins: I can't object to glass cannons that much, right? Well, the bit with them is that you don't have 500 points tied up in a single one-shottable model! If they had one, I probably wouldn't use that, either. They also don't have a single 500-point model that can crunch an arbitrarily-large MEQ squad in one turn, near-guaranteed, and then zoom away to do it again. A DE army will be full of small, not too expensive units that can't stand up to any kind of serious focused fire but have a good chance of negating any single shot. The law of averages is their nightmare, and they have to alpha strike, or hang out in reserve for a big "beta strike". I can deal with that, because I'm not likely to lose so much of my army in one shot - nor cost you so much of yours in a single shooting phase from a single model.

Why are Riptides an auto-take? Not because of their killing potential. The same number of points worth of Crisis Suits will almost always do more damage except in the case of Interceptor with ion pieplates, which is absolutely OP in a major way. They're an auto-take because they have enough firepower that you can't totally ignore them, but they tie up a lot of firepower. That allows other squishy units to still get work done. Now, they are too durable for their cost or too cheap for their durability. That's what my two alternate versions upthread are intended to address (that, and to replace the thrice-cursed Ion Accelerator with the Ghostkeel's much more reasonable Cyclic Ion Raker, which is strong, but not unreasonably so).

Traditio wrote:
Why wouldn't you use Mobile Suit Gundam: Riptide?

Because its offensive and defensive capacity fall woefully short of its cripplingly high points cost, which it's author has confirmed was their intention when writing the rules.

Traditio wrote:
Why, on the other hand, are riptides an auto-take?

Because its offensive and defensive capacity are pretty good for its moderately high points cost. Despite this, it is not an auto-take.

Traditio wrote:
Mobile Suit Gundam: Riptide is basically balanced.

What's the honest answer to it?

'False'.

Traditio wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
Oh, that was uncharitable, sir. I did accuse you of trolling, but you successfully rebutted those accusations.

Look, seriously, what the hell do you want me to do, ship you every model I have for destruction as Your Grace sees fit?

I will say, I haven't run a Riptide with the ion accelerator in a damn long time. When I do use it, it's mainly as a fire magnet, but increasingly I'm reconsidering even that.

In all fairness, it's not directed just against you. This really is directed against all Tau and Eldar players.

Why wouldn't you use Mobile Suit Gundam: Riptide?

Why, on the other hand, are riptides an auto-take?

These are open questions.

Mobile Suit Gundam: Riptide is basically balanced.

What's the honest answer to it?

I feel it doesn't fit Tau philosophy as I see it. The current Riptide could have a points increase, but functionally, I don't have an issue.

Captain Joystick wrote:Because its offensive and defensive capacity fall woefully short of its cripplingly high points cost, which it's author has confirmed was their intention when writing the rules.

1. I actually didn't say that was my intention. I said my intention was to make Tau players look at it, be strongly tempted by it, but ultimately pass it over. Here, you should question why it's tempting, but ultimately you'd still pass it over. More on this below.

2. It's defensive capacity is roughly appropriate to its points costs. It would take roughly 500 points worth of devastators 2 turns of concentrated fire power to take it out reliably.

3. Does its offensive capacity fall short? Could you take out 500 points worth of models with Mobile Suit Gundam: Riptide? I wish to emphasize the fact that it's melee attack would make landraiders cry.

At any rate, what's the real reason? You wouldn't take it because it's balanced. You are only willing to field a model whose offensive and defense capacities EXCEED its points cost. Basically, if it's not OP and broken, it's not worth taking.

That's the Tau and Eldar mentality.

I once heard it claimed that a 400 points wraithknight wouldn't regularly see gameplay.

That speaks volumes.

Because its offensive and defensive capacity are pretty good for its moderately high points cost. Despite this, it is not an auto-take.

Let's be clear on this. According to the points costs, a riptide is slightly less powerful than Pedro Kantor.

I'm calling bull on that one.

The riptide is not "moderately good" for its points cost. If it regularly takes more than 180 points of devoted firepower to take it out, it's defensive capacity exceeds its points cost. If it regularly takes out more than 180 points of models before it dies, its offensive capacity exceeds its points cost.

You don't take the riptide because it's OK. You take it because it's unbalanced and unfair.

And don't give me that nonsense about just liking the model. The tau players in this thread have basically admitted that the model has nothing to do with it. If it were the same cool looking model with an actually FAIR ruleset, it wouldn't see play.

Your problem with Mobile Suit Gundam: Riptide isn't that it's too easily destroyed. Your problem with it is that it consistently can be destroyed at all. Your problem with Mobile Suit Gundam: Riptide isn't that it doesn't have enough firepower to make up for its costs. Your problem is that it doesn't have enough firepower to make it OP and broken.

Unlike your 180 point pay-to-win model.

The new 30th anniversary SM can kill a Riptide in one round of shooting. (It can actually kill two, but for the sake of argument let's say it's just one).

He costs 14 points. By your logic a Riptide should cost 7 points.

As a Tau player I wholeheartedly agree.

Slightly more serious edit: Gundams are supposed to be tough, as in 'immune to battle tanks' tough. AV15 minimum.