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2016/04/28 13:39:52
Subject: Ken Livingstone Antisemitic career meltdown
Ken Livingstone suspended from Labour after Hitler remarks
Former London mayor excluded from party after arguing Hitler supported Zionism, during defence of Naz Shah
Labour has suspended the former London mayor Ken Livingstone “for bringing the party into disrepute” amid accusations of antisemitism and making offensive comments about Hitler supporting Zionism.
More than 20 MPs, including Sadiq Khan, Labour’s current London mayoral candidate, had called on Livingstone to be expelled over the remarks he made while trying to defend the suspended Bradford MP Naz Shah.
The party’s chief whip has also called in the MP John Mann, chair of the all-party group on antisemitism, to discuss his confrontation of Livingstone at the BBC in which he called him a “disgusting Nazi apologist”.
A Labour spokesman said: “Ken Livingstone has been suspended by the Labour party, pending an investigation, for bringing the party into disrepute. The chief whip has summoned John Mann MP to discuss his conduct.”
Livingstone was suspended after he appeared on BBC London to claim that, while Shah’s remarks were “over the top”, she had said nothing that amounted to antisemitism.
The Bradford MP has apologised and been suspended from the party for promoting a Facebook post in 2014 suggesting Israelis should be deported and claiming “the Jews are rallying” to support a poll about the Israel-Palestine conflict.
During his interview, Livingstone said Hitler had supported Zionism “before he went mad and ended up killing 6 million Jews” and claimed there was a “well-orchestrated campaign by the Israel lobby to smear anybody who criticises Israel policy as antisemitic”.
The veteran politician said accusations of antisemitism were part of a campaign against the Labour leader.
“Frankly, there’s been an attempt to smear Jeremy Corbyn and his associates as antisemitic from the moment he became leader. The simple fact is we have the right to criticise what is one of the most brutal regimes going in the way it treats the Palestinians,” he said.
Livingstone was confronted at the BBC studios by Mann, who called him a “disgusting Nazi apologist” and then repeated his accusations to Livingstone live on the BBC’s Daily Politics, saying: “I think you’ve lost it, Mr Livingstone … What are you on at the moment? You certainly shouldn’t be on Labour’s national executive.”
It is the second time Livingstone has been suspended from Labour; the first being when he put himself forward as an independent candidate for the London mayoralty in 2000. It is also not the first time he has been in hot water over accusations of antisemitism, having been investigated for likening a Jewish reporter to a Nazi concentration camp guard in 2005.
Pressure mounted on Corbyn to suspend Livingstone after MPs made their anger known. It is understood the deputy leader, Tom Watson, made clear he was angry and offended by the comments and concerned about their potentially damaging effect on the electoral prospects of hundreds of candidates.
Khan said on Twitter that the comments were “appalling and inexcusable”, and there must be no place for them in the party. Labour MPs Jess Phillips, Yvette Cooper, Wes Streeting, Tristram Hunt, Stella Creasy, Liz Kendall, Conor McGinn and John Woodcock were also among those calling for Livingstone to be suspended.
Chris Bryant was the first shadow cabinet minister to criticise Livingstone, telling the House of Commons he was sick and tired of people trying to explain away antisemitism, adding: “Yes I’m talking to you Ken Livingstone.”
David Lammy, the Labour MP and former minister, had hinted he could not stay in the party if Livingstone remained, tweeting that he “simply cannot reconcile being in the same party as someone with these views”.
Allies of Corbyn had also turned on Livingstone. Jon Lansman, the Momentum founder who helped run Corbyn’s leadership campaign, said: “A period of silence from Ken Livingstone is overdue, especially on antisemitism racism and Zionism. It’s time he left politics altogether.”
Woodcock, a former chair of the Labour Friends of Israel, said Livingstone was chair of Labour’s international policy commission, and that his comments suggested he must be “actively seeking suspension and notoriety”.
The rows over Shah and Livingstone have been going on amid wider claims that the party has failed to get a grip on antisemitism among some of its members.
David Cameron said it was
clear Labour had a problem with antisemitism.
“Antisemitism is like racism: it is unacceptable in a modern political party and every political party has got to deal with it,” the prime minister said at a pro-EU referendum campaign event in Peterborough. “As I said to Jeremy Corbyn some weeks ago when I was shouted down in the House of Commons and called disgraceful, they’ve got a problem and they’ve got to deal with it.”
Reap the whirlwind, Ken.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/28 13:40:59
Umm well some subjects are best left to be avoided. Minefeilds and all can explode.
He already had past comments, some times leaving the hot topic alone stops burns.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2016/04/28 13:59:40
Subject: Ken Livingstone Antisemitic career meltdown
Livingstone's comments didn't seem to be stated as an opinion, or a criticism of Israel or anything, but was simply a historical fact that he had done something.
Additionally, I fully agree with his statement that there is a lot of confusion and conflation of criticism of Israel with anti-semitism.
Criticising Israel for something it does doesn't mean that I hate jewish people. Just like criticising something India does doesn't mean that I hate Hindu people. Or criticising England meaning I hate CofE people.
Goliath wrote: This entire furore is utterly perplexing to me.
Livingstone's comments didn't seem to be stated as an opinion, or a criticism of Israel or anything, but was simply a historical fact that he had done something.
Additionally, I fully agree with his statement that there is a lot of confusion and conflation of criticism of Israel with anti-semitism.
Criticising Israel for something it does doesn't mean that I hate jewish people. Just like criticising something India does doesn't mean that I hate Hindu people. Or criticising England meaning I hate CofE people.
No but Naz posting that all Israelis should be forcibly deported to the US is pure anti-antisemitism at its worst and Livingston defending it was just him trying to defend the indefensible. Livingston is a scummy, corrosive arse and he has form. Plus this quote just shows he hasn't got a fething clue:
Vanessa Feltz: “It was over the top. Over the top of what?”
Ken Livingstone: “To think of anti-Semitism and racism as exactly the same thing.”
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/28 14:18:14
2016/04/28 14:22:24
Subject: Ken Livingstone Antisemitic career meltdown
Criticising Israel for something it does doesn't mean that I hate jewish people.
Well, that kinda depends. Context is everything.
When the media says something like "Israeli Soldiers kill Palestinians" instead of "Palestinians stab Israelis to death on Streets of Jerusalem, and Soldiers open fire to protect themselves" there are some serious problems. Sadly, Anti-Israel like that can be considered Anti-Jewish.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/28 14:22:44
2016/04/28 14:50:52
Subject: Ken Livingstone Antisemitic career meltdown
Criticising Israel for something it does doesn't mean that I hate jewish people.
Well, that kinda depends. Context is everything.
When the media says something like "Israeli Soldiers kill Palestinians" instead of "Palestinians stab Israelis to death on Streets of Jerusalem, and Soldiers open fire to protect themselves" there are some serious problems. Sadly, Anti-Israel like that can be considered Anti-Jewish.
Well, if you're gonna be like that, it should say "Israeli soldiers stabbed by member of the population they are occupying, opened fire in response"
2016/04/28 15:01:07
Subject: Re:Ken Livingstone Antisemitic career meltdown
To be honest, 'anti-Zionism' often is the disguised cloak for anti-semitism these days. Not all anti-zionists are anti-semites, but it's not surprising that all the anti-semites are anti-zionists. It's the more politically acceptable way of expressing anti-semitic views for them. The number of times I've read 'All the Jews' should just get out of Israel' or 'Israelis are the new Nazis' or somesuch line briefly followed by 'I'm not anti-semitic, I'm just an anti-zionist/against Israel' is unreal.
I think the proof in the pudding tends to be the fact that for every ten 'Free Palestine/Boycott Israeli products/Cut ties with Israeli Universities/Protest against the Zionist occupier' movements, you see maybe one equivalent protest relating to the horrendous oppression carried out in Zimbabwe, or Saudia Arabia or somewhere just as bad. There are more such movements based against Israel than I've had nice dinners this year. And yet when you question why Israel deserves such special attention in a world full of perfect examples of war, oppression and hunger, you get some vague justifications about being 'anti warmongering Nazi zionists'.
Please note here, that I'm not saying what Israel does in that part of the world is necessarily right and just. I abhor many of the actions taken by the Israeli state. As should any self-respecting person of sound moral judgement (I'm aware that's entirely subjective). But I temper that abhorrence with a sound knowledge of the issues and challenges that the region faces, and the awareness that quite frankly, the Palestinians are just as bad in many respects, and so is a good chunk of the rest of the world. Your average rabid 'Anti-Zionist' protestor seems to lack that.
I suspect it's because the majority of people who drum up/organise these movements tend to be pulling funding from the Middle-East (whose neighbours give a lot of money away each year to cause trouble for Israel) and possessed of something of an inculcated cultural hatred of Israel, or they're descendants of the anti-semitic political tradition (which is also reasonably inculcated). They both have an interest in keeping up the political pressure and keeping tensions against Israel high, and frankly, Israel gives no end of morally questionable actions to publicise and rage against.
The result is that naturally, your average leftie/liberal at University ends up being extremely well-exposed to Israel's individual perfidies and ill-actions specifically over and over to the point where they consider it the very embodiment of evil, with no real contextual knowledge. Those that then go on to join the Lib Dems/Labour party take that attitude with them. Those that become journalists write about it extensively. And so forth. These people then often raise their own children in similar political beliefs/priorities (as indeed, all parents do).
That's how I'd hypothesize the 'Anti-Israel/Zionist' movement is so large (as opposed to say, the anti-Sudanese Goverment movement). The result, naturally though, is a hardline stance towards Israel specifically, which is ultimately predicated upon anti-semitism as much as it is any actions by Israel. But good luck getting any 'Anti-Zionist' to admit that, of any stripe!
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/04/28 15:09:52
2016/04/28 15:11:57
Subject: Re:Ken Livingstone Antisemitic career meltdown
I'd argue there's quite a bit of racism in it as well; we expect Israel to behave because they're "like us", whereas when the Palestinians or Kongolese or South Africans or some other nationality that isn't perceived as "white" we just shrug our shoulders and brush it off as it being "just the Arabs/Africans/Whatever killing each other, what can you expect?". No such excuse for Israel, because we in the Western world helped create that mess in the first place (arguably we're involved in similar manners in the rest of the world too, but not as directly as in the creation of the State of Israel).
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
0013/04/28 15:14:13
Subject: Re:Ken Livingstone Antisemitic career meltdown
I'm not sure if he's trolling or just utterly tone deaf to the nonsense that dribbles out of his mouth. Or maybe, occams razor and all, he really just is a bigot.
Oh, and I'm presuming the 'Hitler supported Zionism' thing refers to the Madagascar plan. It was some wheeze where European Jewry would be (forcibly) relocated. Like a lot of Nazi grand plans it was an utter fantasy and theres very, very good reasons why they never even tried it.
Good riddance to him - the mans an embarrassment. I just hope hes not allowed to quietly rejoin labour after a token 6 month suspension or something.
Also - agreed with Ketaras post entirely. Well put sir.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/28 15:14:48
2016/04/28 15:18:42
Subject: Re:Ken Livingstone Antisemitic career meltdown
As someone who's apparently an anti-Semite (or so I've been told) I sadly have to agree; there's a metric tonne of crazy conspiracy nutters who hate Israel because they hate Jews. These nutters are used by Israel to dismiss any criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic, which makes the nutters more nutty, fuelling the fires, while moderates on both sides of the argument throw their hands up and give up.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
0008/10/28 15:19:28
Subject: Re:Ken Livingstone Antisemitic career meltdown
The Tories are on the ropes: they're floundering on issues left, right, and centre, with Cameron all over the shop because of the Panama papers and the deep divisions in the Tory party over Europe.
Any half-decent opposition party should be landing knock out blows on this government.
But as always, Labour shoot themselves in the foot and let Cameron and Osborne off the hook.
It annoys the feth out of me!
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2016/04/28 15:19:39
Subject: Re:Ken Livingstone Antisemitic career meltdown
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'd argue there's quite a bit of racism in it as well; we expect Israel to behave because they're "like us".
Ofc, that could also explain why some people try to excuse everything Israel does. They're "like us" so if we call it bad that means we too are bad. Yes, it's a democracy - but the people in the occupied territories don't get a vote on what Israel does there.
2016/04/28 15:23:55
Subject: Re:Ken Livingstone Antisemitic career meltdown
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'd argue there's quite a bit of racism in it as well; we expect Israel to behave because they're "like us", whereas when the Palestinians or Kongolese or South Africans or some other nationality that isn't perceived as "white" we just shrug our shoulders and brush it off as it being "just the Arabs/Africans/Whatever killing each other, what can you expect?". No such excuse for Israel, because we in the Western world helped create that mess in the first place (arguably we're involved in similar manners in the rest of the world too, but not as directly as in the creation of the State of Israel).
I'd agree with that. I think however, that as a Jewish state, there's further lack of contextual knowledge possessed by those who jump to judge, namely of that of the Jewish people. Jews have been persecuted, butchered, and oppressed in so many ways over such a long period of time (from the 1190 Massacre of Jews in York down to the post-War pogroms in Poland) that Jews have a very self-focused attitude to things. They've basically culturally embodied Millwall's 'Nobody Likes Us, We Don't Care' slogan.
I mean, seriously, boycotting Universities and writing nasty articles? That's the nicest thing anyone's done to the Jews in two thousand years!
So whilst protestors might have higher standards for Israel, so to speak, they forget that the Jews exist as a separate cultural entity in and of themselves, and take actions according to that culture. The actions in Israel's case, being an emphasis on the preservation of the Jewish State, and Jews specifically above all else. Now the way to try and change that cultural outlook is through careful integration, diplomacy, and showing them that not everybody in the world is out to get them. By organising all these protests and puff pieces demonstrating the complete opposite though, all you do is confirm and harden that Jewish cultural outlook of 'The only ones we can rely on is ourselves', and keep the wheel spinning, and Israel ignoring them.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/04/28 15:26:33
2016/04/28 15:28:02
Subject: Re:Ken Livingstone Antisemitic career meltdown
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: The Tories are on the ropes: they're floundering on issues left, right, and centre, with Cameron all over the shop because of the Panama papers and the deep divisions in the Tory party over Europe.
Any half-decent opposition party should be landing knock out blows on this government.
But as always, Labour shoot themselves in the foot and let Cameron and Osborne off the hook.
It annoys the feth out of me!
I'm no friend of Labour, but I'm forced to agree. Governments need to be kept in check, criticised, questioned and watched. Her Majesties opposition party is a bloody shambles lurching back to the dark times of the hard left and that useless joke they voted in as a leader hasn't got a bloody clue what he's doing. Labour are expecting a pummeling during the upcoming local elections (if the polls are to be believed) which shows, in some way, what the country thinks of him.
2016/04/28 15:34:09
Subject: Re:Ken Livingstone Antisemitic career meltdown
I just find it a little odd that of all the troubled places in the world, an ongoing dispute between two small levantine states gets SO much attention.
Some background for the non UK posters - the Labour party have had a steady drip drip drip of similar incidents recently. Councillors, advisors, an MP, and now the ex Mayor of London -- all posting gak on facebook, shooting their mouth in interviews, etc. It's troubling (to put it mildly) that a mainstream political party seems to have attracted so many cranks and nutters.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/28 15:35:03
2016/04/28 15:34:37
Subject: Re:Ken Livingstone Antisemitic career meltdown
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: The Tories are on the ropes: they're floundering on issues left, right, and centre, with Cameron all over the shop because of the Panama papers and the deep divisions in the Tory party over Europe.
Any half-decent opposition party should be landing knock out blows on this government.
But as always, Labour shoot themselves in the foot and let Cameron and Osborne off the hook.
It annoys the feth out of me!
I'm no friend of Labour, but I'm forced to agree. Governments need to be kept in check, criticised, questioned and watched. Her Majesties opposition party is a bloody shambles lurching back to the dark times of the hard left and that useless joke they voted in as a leader hasn't got a bloody clue what he's doing. Labour are expecting a pummeling during the upcoming local elections (if the polls are to be believed) which shows, in some way, what the country thinks of him.
The SNP are on course for another landslide in Scotland next week, and Corbyn can't be blamed for that, but if he doesn't win big in Wales, or sweep the council elections, he'll be under pressure.
David Cameron has to be the worst PM I've ever lived under, but he's been bloody lucky with his opponents: Brown, Clegg, Milibland, and now Corbyn!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pistols at Dawn wrote: I just find it a little odd that of all the troubled places in the world, an ongoing dispute between two small levantine states gets SO much attention.
Some background for the non UK posters - the Labour party have had a steady drip drip drip of similar incidents recently. Councillors, advisors, an MP, and now the ex Mayor of London -- all posting gak on facebook, shooting their mouth in interviews, etc. It's troubling (to put it mildly) that a mainstream political party seems to have attracted so many cranks and nutters.
Historically, this has always been a problem for the left, but in recent years, with everybody occupying the centre ground, and politics being so PR managed, I honestly thought the issue had been long forgotten.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/28 15:36:29
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2016/04/28 15:46:44
Subject: Re:Ken Livingstone Antisemitic career meltdown
Criticising Israel for something it does doesn't mean that I hate jewish people.
Well, that kinda depends. Context is everything.
When the media says something like "Israeli Soldiers kill Palestinians" instead of "Palestinians stab Israelis to death on Streets of Jerusalem, and Soldiers open fire to protect themselves" there are some serious problems. Sadly, Anti-Israel like that can be considered Anti-Jewish.
Well, if you're gonna be like that, it should say "Israeli soldiers stabbed by member of the population they are occupying, opened fire in response"
I am stating fact, sir. You are stating opinion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/28 15:47:46
2016/04/28 15:52:47
Subject: Re:Ken Livingstone Antisemitic career meltdown
Criticising Israel for something it does doesn't mean that I hate jewish people.
Well, that kinda depends. Context is everything.
When the media says something like "Israeli Soldiers kill Palestinians" instead of "Palestinians stab Israelis to death on Streets of Jerusalem, and Soldiers open fire to protect themselves" there are some serious problems. Sadly, Anti-Israel like that can be considered Anti-Jewish.
Well, if you're gonna be like that, it should say "Israeli soldiers stabbed by member of the population they are occupying, opened fire in response"
I am stating fact, sir. You are stating opinion.
Israel being a Jewish state does not mean that "Israel" and "Jews" are synonymous any more than the Vatican is synonymous with Christians. Your "facts" are flawed.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2016/04/28 15:56:31
Subject: Ken Livingstone Antisemitic career meltdown
Historically, this has always been a problem for the left, but in recent years, with everybody occupying the centre ground, and politics being so PR managed, I honestly thought the issue had been long forgotten.
If anything, I'd say its gotten worse in recent years. This is a party with, after all, a long and proud history of opposing bigotry.
Anyway, Livingstones a fool. A smug fool. I really hope this ends his involvement in politics.
2016/04/28 16:03:13
Subject: Ken Livingstone Antisemitic career meltdown
Ustrello wrote: Well considering Israel has the highest population of jews and the Vatican represents the largest sect of christians you are about half wrong walrus
For the love of...
Does the Pope speak for every Christian in the world?
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2016/04/28 16:04:49
Subject: Ken Livingstone Antisemitic career meltdown
Ustrello wrote: Well considering Israel has the highest population of jews and the Vatican represents the largest sect of christians you are about half wrong walrus
For the love of...
Does the Pope speak for every Christian in the world?
He does for Catholics doesn't he?
0011/04/01 16:07:52
Subject: Re:Ken Livingstone Antisemitic career meltdown
Ustrello wrote: Well considering Israel has the highest population of jews and the Vatican represents the largest sect of christians you are about half wrong walrus
Nobody is arguing the numbers, but that doesnt make the statement any less true. The US has very neary as many Jews as Israel does, that doesnt mean however that hating the US means you hate Jews either though. Likewise, the Vatican itself constitutes a very tiny population, and represents nowhere near the entirety of christianity.
Taking issue with governments and their policies is not the same as actively hating their people. Look at how many people in the world hate the US government (and with some good reasons in many cases) but adore US culture and have no problem with US tourists or visiting the US themselves.
Ustrello wrote: Well considering Israel has the highest population of jews and the Vatican represents the largest sect of christians you are about half wrong walrus
For the love of...
Does the Pope speak for every Christian in the world?
He does for Catholics doesn't he?
the Pope is the head of the Catholic church, but that is not the same as representing all followers of that creed, especially beyond matters of faith.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/28 16:11:40
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