DarkTraveler777 wrote:
See my point? What if a female player wants to play a specific game that is guilty of a "cheesecake or nothing" policy with its miniature line? Are they
SOL? Or should they just go play another game because... why?
Not "make your own game", but
choose a different game, or
proxy out the "offending" figures with ones you like. I've personally done both with different games. I don't expect small or large companies to pander to my every whim (unless it's
KS of course
)
For a bit of fun, I'll throw in some quotes from an argument on another forum about the Relic-made, licenced videogame from a couple years ago: Space Marine:
A whole bunch of different people posting here. One of them is female. There's some interesting posts there.
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I am quite enjoying it, my only complaints are:
1. Rails. I would like a bit more of an open war.
2. Character development - I would like a few more options other than getting the next weapon. An ME style character development system would completely rock with this game.
3. Sisters of Battle - It would be nice to have a female character sisters option, it may convince my wife to play, she gets really furious at games that do not allow you gender selection.
The combat though is fantastic and they got the feel of the game world spot on.
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Sisters of Battle would be a really nice touch.
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[geek]Sisters of Battle aren't surgically modified monsters like space marines, they're normal-ish humans in power armor. They aren't in the same league for toe to toe combat with armies of bad things, which is why they work with the Inquisition for hunting down heretics instead of going around purging worlds of alien armies like the marines do. Lore-wise it makes no sense for one of the Sisters to be a stand-in for a marine.[/geek]
That said, yeah, it would be nice of
GW to throw the ladies a bone and break up the sausage fest a bit by letting the Sisters have at least a tiny smidgen of spotlight.
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Yeah, was about to post essentially what xxxxxx said in that they're not directly analogous to Marines in the game, and particularly not in the lore - in-game, Orks are a much closer match 1-on-1 for a regular marine. Though a Captain would still kick ass, he could lose to these large swarms of Orks. Meanwhile in the lore a single
SM is enough to fight off Hordes of Orks - much as in this game.
The game's not by
GW, it's Relic. And it's called "Space Marine". Maybe in sequels they might open it up a little more and have a token
SoB level, but I think we're more likely to see a token Grey Knight or
IG level.
Character development - it's not an
RPG or
RPG-styled game. And a
SM captain is pretty much already at the peak of his skill tree. Not really sure it's the right/same genre for ME-style character development.
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It's ... hard to explain. I understand the "we want it to be THIS ONE DUDE." I do! I get the lore behind it and everything. But I cannot blame women at this point to finally be like "You know what? feth you. I am sick to goddamn death of Male as the Default and if I can't play my own gender, you can go feth yourself, game. I will spend my dollars on games that it either doesn't come up (the dreaded CASUAL GAMES like Bejeweled), or where I can pick what I am." I am not a big fan of it, and a game has to be really, really fun for me to give it a chance when it does that now. And sometimes not even then, depending on how lazy it strikes me.
If women weren't still so obviously so far out of consideration for most games as to be basically invisible, in spite of the fact there actually are a lot of us, I think stuff like Space Marine would bother women less. Because then it becomes less "once again they assume the white dude is the ONE THING
WE CAN ALL IDENTIFY WITH" and more "this is the character we are taking through this, alright then." I know there are games where the only choice is a lady. But most of the time, those ladies are still constructed with the straight man audience in mind. So it's still not exactly going to help get us all to the point where "Oh, OK, I guess it being this one dude makes sense" overrides the feeling of "HA HA DON'T EVEN PRETEND YOU EXIST, WOMEN GAMERS" more than it currently does. Heart
Also: I was indeed pleased to see the lady character. I wasn't expecting to see ANY, and she's a pretty good character to boot (so far, anyway, I only just met her).
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No it makes total sense. The Sisters of Battle could've been sent down to investigate the actions of a heretical/traitorous Inquisitor, for example.
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I get what you're saying, but basically the lore overrides your girl-rage. The game is called SPACE MARINE, and is about the most high-profile, best-selling part of
GW's IP. It's not about the Adepa Sorotitas, or the Imperial Guard, or the Inquisition. It's about Space Marines, and they are all male.
It's like if people were bitching that a game about Joan of Arc didn't feature a male lead, in this particular case. There'd be more grounds for grizzling if the game had segments where you played as other characters, but it doesn't, so, you know, bad luck and stfu and so forth. (I don't mean it in a nasty way towards yourself). If in a sequel they have a section where you control another character, then sure, put the Sisters in for that segment. Or if there's a co-
op gameplay part, throw a Sister in there as one of the choices (though since
SMs are better than them at everything, I'm not sure how that would work - as it's not like Gears of War or Halo, etc, in that sense, fluff-wise. Seriously, piss and moan about another game for that sort of thing.
Oh, and anyone who thinks that their pet idea/peeve overrides the lore or should do so, you're missing the whole point of this game - which is that the lore is the strongest part of the game. We're not talking about cutting-edge gameplay here, after all.
I guess it comes down to:
1) Is the character or the story more important? - If character - then go with whoever the story is about as your main character.
* A Space Marine game should be about a Space Marine. Duke Nukem should be about Duke, etc. Splinter Cell should be about Sam Fisher. Tomb Raider is about Lara Croft. etc.
2) If the story is more important - then use a character most appropriate to the story. If appropriate, offer a choice of gender.
* Cole Phelps as a male makes more sense as a cop in the 1940s, as do the male characters in Mafia 2
* Commander Shepherd in ME/2 or the protaganist in Saints Row 2/3 are secondary to the story, which is generic enough to accomodate both/either.
* If it doesn't matter at all - offer both genders - even for multiple roles - the characters in Borderlands could alloffer either gender and be character-renamable. Halo Reach? It's not about Master Chef - so let people choose their own character.
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I already said I got it. It's right there in my quote, even. I was simply explaining why that's not going to fly with a lot of women that you may want to give your game a try. We're sick of "oh, but they're ALL MALE, we can't help it" for what feels like every other goddamn game. The gaming industry has a long way to go before "oh, our hands are tied
IT JUST HAPPENS
TO BE ALL MALE" gets the benefit of the doubt it sometimes deserves.
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I know you said that - it's why I said I wasn't trying to be offensive, but this particular bitching (from anyone) would carry more weight to me if it were being given towards a game that's a new IP, or a new story set in an existing world with a gender-doesnt matter character rather than something as specific as this with close to 25 years behind it.
I'm not even disagreeing with your larger point - I actually agree with you with the caveats in my post above! Deus Ex
HR which is busily being spooged over left and right in another thread is much more deserving of this kind of complaint than Space Marine. In fact your whole rant posted above would be much more appropriate in that thread and even make a lot of sense. Where here it doesn't so much. Why can't Adam Jensen be Adama?
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Sexism in games is fine as long as it comes with historical baggage.
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You know what, I am as hardcore a fan of
GW and its lore as you can find. I played 1st edition WFB and had Space wolves, Dark angel and Necron armies. I had a fuggen army of squats too! I used to play their fleet battle games as well. I have played for over two decades and all I can say is:
bs.
GW has retconned the feth out of every race a hundred times over at the drop of a hat for their own inscrutable marketing purposes and never batted an eye. The fact that people even make arguments about "lore consistency" in the
GW space is ridiculous. They have changed their own lore countless times (remember when Orks were actually supposedly the slave race of snotlings who rebelled? I do.) There is no reason why they couldn't have a Sisters of Battle in "experimental battle armor" or some other such Maguffin to allow a female protagonist and still be consistent (snigger) with
GW's "lore".
The only reason they did not include a female character choice is laziness and sexism. I know, other companies are just as (or more) lazy and sexist, but that does not give them a free pass.
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There's also no reason it couldn't have been a friendly Tau in "experimental battle armor", or an Eldar or even Dark Eldar in "experimental battle armor" swaying the battle for their own ends, or a Jokero in homemade "experimental battle armor", or an Inquisitorial Stormtrooper or Inquisitor in "experimental battle armor" or an Ogryn BONE'ead with "experimental cybernetics" or...
Basically, you're being silly in order to push the "it could have been sisters agenda" when it doesn't fit the story/game they are telling. Which is about Space Marine(s). Not sure if you're white-knighting xxxxx since I don't recall seeing you white-knight the whole gender choice thing in threads about any other games, ever. I don't think she needs it, though. Also, you seem to be pushing almost an idea that Relic "would have wanted to make a girl but
GW won't let them" with all the talk about
GW in this game and not Relic. I'm sure
GW would have said "no", but the assumption that Relic would have otherwise have placed a female Adepta Sororita in the game as an alternative main protaganist is drawing a pretty long bow.
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Might be a stupid minor derail, but why exactly are there no female space marines anyway? I mean, when you have been bio-cyber modified so heavily that your original gender might as well not even matter, why bother counting the women out? Is it just a lore thing that the training etc is too harsh for women to handle, or was it just a mandate from on high that the marines will always be a "Boys Club".
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But yeah, for all of the gnashing and wailing of teeth that's going on in this thread, the game sets you in the shoes of an Ultramarine, with other Ultramarines. You want to bitch about the lack of sisters, you can't even change your protaganist to a Blood Angel or a White Scar - and their skins are already in the game! (
MP) I'd wager a lot more
40k fans give a lot more of a gak that they can't play as their own chapter of choice than not being able to play as a Sister - and yet they can't. Them designers done made a choice about the character you play. I say we blame
GW for that, too! Right?
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I've asked this in one of the comic book threads before, but when do things get to change?
When your history/lore was designed during a time when the assumed default was white male, when do you get to do something else? The Lore is the Lore is the Lore just seems to reinforce it's own flaws and stereotypes or whatever.
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Depends what your changes are, I'd guess. I never read
DC, but you don't change Superman to have green skin or to now eat green kryptonite. From my experience reading marvel I can tell you that you don't change the Hulk to Grey. You don't kill Captain America or Spiderman's costume to black. (Note how all of those things that happened have un-happened).
Then again, comics are telling (and re-telling) the same few stories on a monthly basis. Doesn't mean that there can't be new superheroes introduced who are African or Women or have Blue Skin or Iron Skin. Storm, Nightcrawler and Colossus were new once. There was a time when the Battle Sisters were just a few lines of fluff scattered here and ther ebefore they got fleshed out fully. No reason there can't be famous
IG regiments that are all-women (I think they have already been mentioned - just no figures!) or mixed units.
Space Marines are what they are. Suddenly deciding that they are no longer what they are is cheap when there's plenty of other space in the lore to add rather than change for the sake of change. There's plenty of space for new stuff. Dark Eldar were just rumoured in the background of the lore at one stage, and more of an echo of the "Eldar Pirates" that the Eldar were in
RT-era.
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Except it wouldn't be change for changes sake, but change on the realization that maybe our target of white male might have been to narrow to begin with?
It goes back to 'that's the way it was, that's the way it will be!' thing again.
Having a few Chapters of lady Space Marines (or even just mixing some into existing chapters) isn't some devastating change to the IP or theme or whatever.
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Warhammer
40k is male nerd power phantasies gone gaming world. It comes from an era where girls had the cooties.
When they tried to give the players a choice with the Sisters of Battle, the players largely rejected that choice.
Relics hands are somewhat tied in this. Were there female Space Marines, it wouldn't be Warhammer anymore. And they would lose more hardcore W40k nerds than they would win women gamers.
Its one of the worst examples to fight for gender equality, right after demanding more women in gay porn.
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Sisters were introduced as a full army shortly after Necromunda came out, and the Escher (all-girl) gang did very well in sales. I think they were expecting the same to happen with Sisters, but they were unfortunately
1) despite power armour, etc, not as good as Space Marines, or one of the extra flavours of them.
2) very ornate and intricate - much harder to paint well than
SMs with large flat undetailed armour.
3) Thematically too similar to marines - and without the differentiation of something like Imperial Guard.
A friend of mine was trying to get his wife into
40k and thought the Sisters might work for her. She rejected them because their armour had boobs on it "Madonna bra" and they all had the same "bob" haircut that she didn't like.
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I thought it was obvious when we all started to play a game with genetic super soldiers that are just glistening with holy oils and their rippling muscles.
