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Yep, it's platoon-level rather than mass battle.

Which does rather mean that calling it "Legion" is rather stupid, but so be it.

800 points. My lists tend to be about 20-30 troopers, plus a support vehicle of some type, (Bikes/AT-ST).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:
My problem with the Fleet Troopers is that they don't match the Endor commando theme of the other figures. The Laser Cannon is from Hoth too (as are Veers, the Snowtroopers, and E-Web team). I know there is only 3 (maybe 4 or 5) movies to choose from, and there's even fewer large battle scenes, but it just feels too hodge podge for me. And what happens after the Endor and Hoth battles have been milked? Will the Empire be running Gamorian Guards, Snow Troopers, Tuskin Raiders, and Royal Guard led by the Emperor versus the Rebel's Ewoks, Bothans, Fleet Troopers, and Pit Droids led by Lando?

I really like Legion's gameplay, but there's something off about its use of Star Wars that I just can't put my finger on. It doesn't seem to come together as a cohesive whole to me, and it isn't just that the units are all willy nilly. Maybe it needs to have just a few named Rebel characters and a few grunts versus a much larger Imperial army or something. It feels weird for the Rebels to have the same number of people on the field.

This has been my issue with this entire concept from the start.

The Galactic Civil War wasn't. It was a partisan action from bands of rebels conducting sabotage, espionage and the (very) occasional pitched fleet or fighter battle. There was no war, in the traditional sense.

The Clone Wars would'a been a better topic. That actually had campaigns, armies, battle lines, and so on.

Hmm yes and no.

The "rebels" had distinctive uniforms, units were armed with their own make of guns, their had their own ship and fighter classes.

I guess it could be the rich/nobility (Star Wars has a weird system of government) creating their own regiments etc - they were very well equipped for "rebels" / partisans who usually rely on their enemy for equipment, uniforms or a third party to supply them. If it was the former - the rebels would have been using TIE's and Stormtrooper blasters /armour.

"Rebellions" are usually the extension of the foreign policy of an unfriendly nation and seldom if ever succeed without them.

 Peregrine wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
I don't understand why people think they're stuck playing Star Wars Legion - when there are loads of fantastic skirmish sci-fi rules sets out there ---- or you can create your own.

Because all of those obscure rules that nobody uses aren't worth anything unless you can convince people to play with them instead of just playing 40k/MTG/whatever. And rules are the easy part. If FFG drops Legion there are plenty of pdf copies of the rules. TBH you'd be a lot more likely to get people to keep playing Legion after support is dropped, as long as you can find a way to get enough OOP models. But if you're investing in a game in the desperate hope that someone will join you in playing a random game with a player base you can count on one hand, well, I guess it's your money to throw away.

I hate this mentality to wargaming. Unless you're doing large tournaments it's not really that hard to get other gamers into alternate systems. If all your gaming is done down at your local FLGS because they have open play tuesdays where everybody just shows up with their 800 point all-comers lists for random gaming and tournament practice, that's going to be hard to push an alternate rules set. But if you're playing with mostly the same people every time, especially if it's the same group of people that play multiple games, then it's fairly easy to pull out a ruleset and get everyone on board so long as you're willing to show them how to play and walk them through a game. Some of these alternate rules are free or cheap PDFS and while some of very basic and amateurish, some are pretty darned fantastic. The actual FFG rules are fine, but they aren't so good that I wouldn't rather find a better platoon skirmish system. I've already gotten plenty of people to play Star Wars using Pulp Alley for small character skirmish using WotC and IA figs since it wrks way better than the actual WotC D20 system or the Imperial Assault skirmish rules.

Especially important because there's a LOT of people losing interest in the actual game locally since the Imperials are believed to be so much better in the game

Rebs are pretty darn good. They are a little harder to learn but they rock.

What is all this talk of "not getting the game because it will not last". FFG did 40K and Fantasy products and people bought them with no problem.

We buy games every day and we do not know if they will last or not. People who buy Kings of War or Dreadball or Dropzone Commander etc, buy the games because they are interesting, not that they will not be here in 3 or 4 years so why start.

You buy because you want NOW not later. I am really not understanding people not getting Star Wars Legion because it will not be supported. X-wing should show that this will not go anytime soon.

I can understand, already invested in too many games, or can't afford a new system or just don't like the system or minis but to say "it will not be supported in two years from now" just boggles me. After all that is two years you could have been enjoying the game and if not more if it keeps getting supported.

Davor wrote:
What is all this talk of "not getting the game because it will not last". FFG did 40K and Fantasy products and people bought them with no problem.

We buy games every day and we do not know if they will last or not. People who buy Kings of War or Dreadball or Dropzone Commander etc, buy the games because they are interesting, not that they will not be here in 3 or 4 years so why start.

You buy because you want NOW not later. I am really not understanding people not getting Star Wars Legion because it will not be supported. X-wing should show that this will not go anytime soon.

I can understand, already invested in too many games, or can't afford a new system or just don't like the system or minis but to say "it will not be supported in two years from now" just boggles me. After all that is two years you could have been enjoying the game and if not more if it keeps getting supported.

The problem, at least for me, is that FFG has lost a lot of games in the past few years. Some, of their own choice, like BattleLore 2E, Runebound 3E, Star Wars LCG, and so on. And some, not of their choice, like everything GW and Netrunner. As a player of Runewars, I kind of live in constant fear that FFG will drop it (it's been like 8 months since the last release - they've announced a few new heroes, but year two is still looking bleak). Basically, FFG has killed multiple games and game systems that I greatly enjoy - literally some of my favorite games ever - and I just can't get over that worry.

I like Legion's gameplay. It feels a little off as a Star Wars game, but I think that after a year of releases, maybe, FFG could sort that out a bit better. The now dead LCG also didn't feel like Star Wars, but Legion isn't fundamentally flawed like the LCG was. They can fix it. They seem to be going for parity between rebels and imperials, and like Runewars, it'll probably only be after the basic armies are complete that they will start to branch out into more unique feeling armies. They game could also use another army or two (or at least subfactions/theme lists like snowtroopers and sandtroopers).

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't want NOW Legion (with all of 3 troop choices). I want 2 YEARS FROM NOW Legion (and I want that version of Legion to feel more Star Wars-y). I know, I know. I should just wait two years, but I'm okay being an early adopter (in fact, I love it). I love watching a game grow over time. I just don't think FFG is doing enough to communicate what 2 YEARS FROM NOW Legion will look like (or whether it will be supported still)

I don't think FFG's approach to miniature games works very well. They approach it too much like a board game. Their other lifestyle games (like the LCGs) have a sort of standardized release schedule with predictable releases that makes the secrecy tolerable. You know what the Arkham Horror LCG will look like 2 years from now. You'll have a couple more cycles of a deluxe box plus 6 mythos packs. You'll get X number of adventures with Y number of player cards spread predictably across the standard character types. There's not going to be anything really game changing happening. But Legion is getting an operative with Boba Fett. What the hell does that mean for future releases? That came out of nowhere.

Here's another example. Runewars and X-Wing 2.0 no longer use small cards for upgrades - will this change come to Legion too? With Runewars, it was an unannounced change. They don't even list what types of card sleeves the new expansions use on their shop, like they do for every other product they sell. I'm sure they had a good reason for this jarring change, but they not only haven't communicated why they made this change, they didn't even communicate that this change was being made at all. It kind of looks like they were hiding it. If FFG were to lose the Star Wars license, we wouldn't know until about 3 months before everything disappeared forever - just like the last two times FFG lost a license.

This is getting long, but Legion is a good game that I like a lot. It isn't there yet, and I guess my main worry is that it won't ever get there. The potential I'd like to see from it is entirely dependent on how FFG grows the game, and whether they continue to support it - two things which FFG has traditionally been terrible at, and actively seems to be getting worse at.

Edit - This was FFG's Destiny update today. I want to see things like this for FFG's (non-X-wing) miniature games.

Davor wrote:
What is all this talk of "not getting the game because it will not last". FFG did 40K and Fantasy products and people bought them with no problem.

It's just baseless speculation and fearmongering because FFG lost a completely unrelated license for a completely unrelated game licensed from a completely unrelated company. There has been ZERO evidence that ANY of FFG's Star Wars licenses are in jeopardy of going away and every indication that they're going pretty strong. FFG's other games and licenses are FFG's other games and licenses, their Star Wars stuff isn't going anywhere anytime in the forseeable fututre.

Now, a few of us were discussing the merit of using alternate rulesets because of issues with the official rules, but that's a very different discussion from the doomsayers

I dunno. As a Star Wars Armada player Im getting pretty worried, myself. Super glad I am in a situation where I need to collect both sides, so at least I have a playable game regardless of what FFG does.

 Kalamadea wrote:
It's just baseless speculation and fearmongering because FFG lost a completely unrelated license for a completely unrelated game licensed from a completely unrelated company.

Well, not completely baseless. We know FFG announced they had the SW license in Aug 2011, and they renewed it in Mar 2015, which means they have a 5 year contract (which will be up in 2020). Asmodee announced that it would acquire FFG just a few months earlier in Nov 2014, so it probably didn't factor much into FFG's deal with LucasFilm/Disney. However, FFG's split from GW was announce in Sept 2016, and they announced they lost Netrunner just two weeks ago (Jun 2018).

Basically, since the Asmodee merger, they've lost two high profile licenses and 2020 will be the first time that the Star Wars license will potentially be renewed under megacorp Asmodee. If there's competition for the license, like CMON wants a shot at the big time or WizKids (has a line of pre-primed miniatures that is doing well, also owned by NECA, which makes collectible movie figurines - notably lacking Star Wars) goes after it or Disney buys Hasbro or somebody buys Asmodee (currently up for sale), it could put SW's future at FFG in jeapordy. And that's assuming that Disney's abysmal handling of the franchise doesn't completely run it into the ground, causing sales of related merchandise to plummet. Two more years is two more Disney Star Wars movies (yuck).

There has been ZERO evidence that ANY of FFG's Star Wars licenses are in jeopardy of going away and every indication that they're going pretty strong. FFG's other games and licenses are FFG's other games and licenses, their Star Wars stuff isn't going anywhere anytime in the forseeable fututre.

We've already lost one SW game (the LCG). Imperial Assault and Armada are basically on life support. X-Wing is about to see a new edition (edition changes always lose players, and X-Wing may have already reached a saturation point where everyone who might play it already has). Destiny is doing well though.

I'm not saying doom WILL happen. Every game has risks. I just don't think the Star Wars license is as healthy as everyone seems to assume. My main complaint is that FFG is secretive and uncommunicative, and given how so, so many other of their games have gone, it makes me really uneasy about Legion's future. I have no fears about smaller companies, like Steamforged or Corvus Belli, and I felt really good even about Shadespire and Necromunda, despite GW's spotty history with specialist games - it's specifically a FFG issue. It's what they've done and what they do that makes me worry.

For Net Runner though, FFG did pick up L5R and I think that, at one point at least, was notable competition for MtG. Then again, my only interaction with L5R was through the RPG.

Skaorn wrote:
For Net Runner though, FFG did pick up L5R and I think that, at one point at least, was notable competition for MtG. Then again, my only interaction with L5R was through the RPG.

Plus L5R is not a license. FFG bought the IP wholesale.

good god, lets talk about Legion and not about other IP and other things that have nothing to do with the coming releases and current units.

Sqorgar wrote:

Spoiler:

Davor wrote:
What is all this talk of "not getting the game because it will not last". FFG did 40K and Fantasy products and people bought them with no problem.

We buy games every day and we do not know if they will last or not. People who buy Kings of War or Dreadball or Dropzone Commander etc, buy the games because they are interesting, not that they will not be here in 3 or 4 years so why start.

You buy because you want NOW not later. I am really not understanding people not getting Star Wars Legion because it will not be supported. X-wing should show that this will not go anytime soon.

I can understand, already invested in too many games, or can't afford a new system or just don't like the system or minis but to say "it will not be supported in two years from now" just boggles me. After all that is two years you could have been enjoying the game and if not more if it keeps getting supported.

The problem, at least for me, is that FFG has lost a lot of games in the past few years. Some, of their own choice, like BattleLore 2E, Runebound 3E, Star Wars LCG, and so on. And some, not of their choice, like everything GW and Netrunner. As a player of Runewars, I kind of live in constant fear that FFG will drop it (it's been like 8 months since the last release - they've announced a few new heroes, but year two is still looking bleak). Basically, FFG has killed multiple games and game systems that I greatly enjoy - literally some of my favorite games ever - and I just can't get over that worry.

I like Legion's gameplay. It feels a little off as a Star Wars game, but I think that after a year of releases, maybe, FFG could sort that out a bit better. The now dead LCG also didn't feel like Star Wars, but Legion isn't fundamentally flawed like the LCG was. They can fix it. They seem to be going for parity between rebels and imperials, and like Runewars, it'll probably only be after the basic armies are complete that they will start to branch out into more unique feeling armies. They game could also use another army or two (or at least subfactions/theme lists like snowtroopers and sandtroopers).

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't want NOW Legion (with all of 3 troop choices). I want 2 YEARS FROM NOW Legion (and I want that version of Legion to feel more Star Wars-y). I know, I know. I should just wait two years, but I'm okay being an early adopter (in fact, I love it). I love watching a game grow over time. I just don't think FFG is doing enough to communicate what 2 YEARS FROM NOW Legion will look like (or whether it will be supported still)

I don't think FFG's approach to miniature games works very well. They approach it too much like a board game. Their other lifestyle games (like the LCGs) have a sort of standardized release schedule with predictable releases that makes the secrecy tolerable. You know what the Arkham Horror LCG will look like 2 years from now. You'll have a couple more cycles of a deluxe box plus 6 mythos packs. You'll get X number of adventures with Y number of player cards spread predictably across the standard character types. There's not going to be anything really game changing happening. But Legion is getting an operative with Boba Fett. What the hell does that mean for future releases? That came out of nowhere.

Here's another example. Runewars and X-Wing 2.0 no longer use small cards for upgrades - will this change come to Legion too? With Runewars, it was an unannounced change. They don't even list what types of card sleeves the new expansions use on their shop, like they do for every other product they sell. I'm sure they had a good reason for this jarring change, but they not only haven't communicated why they made this change, they didn't even communicate that this change was being made at all. It kind of looks like they were hiding it. If FFG were to lose the Star Wars license, we wouldn't know until about 3 months before everything disappeared forever - just like the last two times FFG lost a license.

This is getting long, but Legion is a good game that I like a lot. It isn't there yet, and I guess my main worry is that it won't ever get there. The potential I'd like to see from it is entirely dependent on how FFG grows the game, and whether they continue to support it - two things which FFG has traditionally been terrible at, and actively seems to be getting worse at.

Edit - This was FFG's Destiny update today. I want to see things like this for FFG's (non-X-wing) miniature games.

Thank you very much for that. I can understand where you are coming from now. I guess for me I am too use to the 2-5 years of cycle change from GW that I really don't look that far ahead anymore.

After giving it some thought, take away real life issues for me, and depression, another reason why I don't play much anymore is becuase of this change. Some peolpe in my group are good, others are not. The others are the reason why I don't play because they are WYSIWYG and will not change. So if the game changes it's hard to play with some people. So better not even bother. I have forgotten about why I did this because of my depression keeping me from playing right now. After reading your post you have reminded me why I never went all in years ago with GW. I tried to go in now, but depression is keeping me away.

While I understand now where you are coming from, I have this little story. There is a game called Fallout 3. I thought I would save money and wait for a sale. I waited over 9 months before paying full price for the game because it never went on sale. So I wasted 9 months of playing an awesome game in my opinion trying to save money. While this is not about saving money, I guess my story is, not knowing what will happen means we are missing the "now" part of playing a great game.

I don't know why I said that, it seemed to fit. I guess seeing how my fear and depression keeps me from buying things or playing, and enjoying something I want to do, I just hate to see someone miss out on something they want.

TL;DR

I fully understand where you are coming from now.

FWIW, I used to be leery of buying into new games because I generally didn't get to painting and playing things I bought for a good year. I've recently buckled down and focused on reducing my backlog so that something new and exciting can get immediate attention. Legion is actually one of the first games where I've really benefited from this; having it fully painted shortly after release and getting new releases done as they come out. It's probably the most "in the now" I've experienced in a game (with the exception of FFG's extremely early product announcements) and overall its been far more enjoyable because of it and helped motivate me to get other games to a place where I don't have a real painting backlog to worry about.

Does anyone know if they will make a E-web (or radar cannon) for regular Stormies and Rebs or are they going to be "Hoth Style" only?

 Easy E wrote:
Does anyone know if they will make a E-web (or radar cannon) for regular Stormies and Rebs or are they going to be "Hoth Style" only?

There's pretty much zero chance they're going to make alternate sculpts any time soon.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
An 800 point Rebel army does not.

Probably because there's no such thing as a Rebel "army". They were never an armed force fighting the Empire in open combat. That's just not how the GCW went.

It's what makes this game so disjointed.

I mean, OK, but that's just wrong. They were certainly a less organised, less well supplied armed force and frequently used guerilla and insurgency tactics, and many of the units that made up their "army" were former resistance cells with a "flexible" relationship with Alliance High Command, but they were an armed force and they did engage the Empire in open battle on multiple occasions. I mean they do it twice(Scarif & Hoth) even if you insist on sticking to the movies, which isn't how things work any more anyway. The protagonists of the (canon)Battlefront novel are the 61st Mobile Infantry Company, so you'd assume there are at least 60 others and rationally far, far more because otherwise it wouldn't have been a Galactic Civil War at all. I mean, the New Republic formed in the immediate aftermath of Endor didn't just pull a complete, functional, organised army out of their backside to immediately begin fighting multiple planetary-scale liberation efforts.

 Easy E wrote:
Does anyone know if they will make a E-web (or radar cannon) for regular Stormies and Rebs or are they going to be "Hoth Style" only?

I doubt they will for a while, if at all. The Rebel crew fit fine in any force with the right paintjob, maybe a head swap, and you can swap out the guy not using the weapon itself for any other fig. The E-web will get regular Stormtrooper crew from one of the Shapeways 3rd party folk long before FFG bother doing it most likely.

You could also probably kitbash with a Stormtrooper kit. The 5 regular trooper and conveniently kneeling HH missile launcher troopers aren't particularly great picks in a list anyway. Take those two out of the unit and put them on the E-Web instead.

Alternate paint schemes will do the job otherwise. I posted mine a page back and find the snowtroopers still look good despite my wasteland basing.

Doesn't sound like they will be making them in "normal troopers." But U can convert and green stuff a standard trooper without any problems. I don't think it will be that hard. However, I see your point. Perhaps they can do a small scale release down the line for the figures.

Ive seen a couple instances of painting Snowtroopers as Galactic Marines (I think?). Which lessens their odd feeling of being on non-snow terrain.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Ive seen a couple instances of painting Snowtroopers as Galactic Marines (I think?). Which lessens their odd feeling of being on non-snow terrain.

That's not really a thing any more, "snowtroopers" I mean. They've not been explicitly renamed yet or anything, but in nuCanon they seem to be getting pushed towards a more generic "hostile environment assault trooper", they show up places like post-Tarkinated Jedha. Also, after looking into it having initially planned to do that myself, I'm not sure the Imperial Galactic Marines would still be using Clone Wars-era markings and colours, more likely they'd be in the same basic white gear as other units like Blizzard Force(the unit seen in ESB).

Is this from the comics or novels? I'd always assumed the Stormtroopers in ESB were just the same troopers we see later on Bespin, but in different gear. Likewise with the ones on Tatooine at the beginning of ANH.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Is this from the comics or novels? I'd always assumed the Stormtroopers in ESB were just the same troopers we see later on Bespin, but in different gear. Likewise with the ones on Tatooine at the beginning of ANH.

The appearance on Jedha is from a nuCanon comic series, the identity of the ESB troopers specifically being a specialist unit named Blizzard Force not usually part of Vader's Death Squadron contingent was originally from the ESB novelisation and has been featured in multiple nuCanon reference books now so is pretty solidly canon.

The ANH troopers would have been a contingent from aboard the Devastator which pursued the Tantive IV from Scarif, possibly with some troopers from the Mos Eisley garrison(though I suspect a Hutt-controlled backwater like Tatooine would have had Imperial Army rather than Stormtrooper garrison forces), while the troopers on Bespin might have been the same ones from Tatooine there's no way to know since Death Squadron had six Star Destroyers each of which can carry thousands of Stormtroopers, plus the Executor.

Let me see if I can find my headcanon post from facebook trying to reconcile all this nonsense:

The way I look at it is this(and obviously this is mostly "headCanon", all we know for sure is units that look like what we knew as "snowtroopers" now show up in places that aren't even slightly snowy) - "hostile environment troopers" are an expeditionary unit, their job is to assault and invade, anytime, anywhere, no matter the conditions and circumstances, so they have "universal" reinforced gear with climate control, enhanced breather filters and an option to run sealed for limited periods, advanced layers in the coverings and coats etc - essentially NBC battle-gear that can handle just about anything with a couple of quick tweaks to the settings. Within that overall category, there are specialist units like Blizzard Force(the ESB Hoth battle troopers) who are renowned for their expertise in fighting in specific hostile biomes and will be deployed to those whenever possible.

Sandtroopers, Magmatroopers, Swamptroopers etc etc, those are all just regular Stormtroopers with gear modified for one specific extreme biome and maybe some additional training or prior experience. They'd usually be deployed as garrison forces and so wouldn't need expensive multi-biome armour, just some mods to their mass-produced cheapie service gear. I imagine there are probably limited stocks of the most commonly required modifications aboard ships like Star Destroyers so as to enable temporary deployments of their regular troopers either in support of an HEV unit or where such a unit was unavailable for whatever reason(like Vader's rapid pursuit of Leia to Tatooine).

Announced Imperial Royal Guard and Emperor Palpatine.

A surprise, to be sure, but a welcome one. I particularly like the sculpts on the Royal Guard, in terms of Legion sculpts they're pretty good.

I own a game store and have similar concerns about the longevity of this game. At the Gama Trade Show I voiced those concerns to Andre Kieran, the guy who is now in charge of the line. Andre used to run Games Workshop US sales, so he unlike most of FFG knows how to run and expand miniatures lines. He assured me that it would have regular releases, none of this waiting 8 months for a release. We'll have to wait till the end of the year and assess, but I am concerned. It seems that they are sticking to just what was in the first 3 original movies. If they don't use other sources that will produce a lopsided game where the Empire has ATAT's and the rebels can't stand up to them in a straight fight. It wasn't until the second trilogy that we saw any kinds of other armored vehicles. Unless they make asymmetric warfare rules where rebels can set giant log traps to squish ATAT's, it could be bad for the game.

Smellingsalts wrote:
I own a game store and have similar concerns about the longevity of this game. At the Gama Trade Show I voiced those concerns to Andre Kieran, the guy who is now in charge of the line. Andre used to run Games Workshop US sales, so he unlike most of FFG knows how to run and expand miniatures lines. He assured me that it would have regular releases, none of this waiting 8 months for a release. We'll have to wait till the end of the year and assess, but I am concerned. It seems that they are sticking to just what was in the first 3 original movies. If they don't use other sources that will produce a lopsided game where the Empire has ATAT's and the rebels can't stand up to them in a straight fight. It wasn't until the second trilogy that we saw any kinds of other armored vehicles. Unless they make asymmetric warfare rules where rebels can set giant log traps to squish ATAT's, it could be bad for the game.

The sad part is that Rebel wise, they could do quite a bit just with the idea of 'looted' gear. Things like the AT-RT, the gravtank from Rogue One--things leftover from the Clone Wars and on the backwater planets tended to fall into Rebel hands.

Smellingsalts wrote:
I own a game store and have similar concerns about the longevity of this game. At the Gama Trade Show I voiced those concerns to Andre Kieran, the guy who is now in charge of the line. Andre used to run Games Workshop US sales, so he unlike most of FFG knows how to run and expand miniatures lines. He assured me that it would have regular releases, none of this waiting 8 months for a release. We'll have to wait till the end of the year and assess, but I am concerned. It seems that they are sticking to just what was in the first 3 original movies. If they don't use other sources that will produce a lopsided game where the Empire has ATAT's and the rebels can't stand up to them in a straight fight. It wasn't until the second trilogy that we saw any kinds of other armored vehicles. Unless they make asymmetric warfare rules where rebels can set giant log traps to squish ATAT's, it could be bad for the game.

Add Chewie and some other unit on the Rebel side and the game is essentially at that point about when Wave 3 released for X-Wing where the original vision of recreating the OT is largely available. Much like X-Wing, if what you want is a box of Star Wars, that will also likely be your stopping point and also much like X-Wing, the next set of releases will likely start showing us which ways they'll look to expand going forward.