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Made in es
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 Kriswall wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:
You mean, other than 40k being the main competitor for that thoughtspace?


This isn't 40k. Go watch Rogue One. A blind man shoots a TIE Fighter out of the sky. I think it's reasonable to assume that a dozen Stormtroopers can potentially hit an Airspeeder, which again, is slower than a TIE Fighter... especially when trying to hit Infantry. Also, you may not like Flyers, but they work fine in 40k. I don't like them either, but it's not like the game table catches on fire when you try to field one. It just changes the play experience a little because you have a new target type to deal with.

Not sure what part of what I said are you answering to, could you clarify? It looks like there's been a miscommunication somewhere.
   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 AegisGrimm wrote:
I understand why they did it, but I don't get why the first Rebel vehicle is a flyer. Such a thing is entirely too fast for this scale of game, no matter what Games Workshop thinks.

Rebels should have got something like the hovertank from Rogue One, or something similar like seen all throughout the Clone Wars. Hell, even a landspeeder with a weapon attached, like the one used on Naboo, would make more sense than an Airspeeder.


Not sure what GW has to do with this game?


Seems pretty obvious that he's referring to what is essentially a flyer/attack aircraft in a 32mm ground combat game. They don't belong in 40K but were shoehorned in, and he's arguing that the airspeeder, being an aircraft, doesn't belong in Legions. I'd agree that they're a bit fast for a platoon skirmish game, but as was said they fit the role of attack helicopter more than fighter jets. Also, they're nearly as iconic as X-Wings and have been in every other Star Wars minatures game from West End to WotC, it was pretty much a given that they'd be amongst the first releases for Legion.

That said, I'm excited to see if there will be any hovertanks for either side like that n Rogue One or the Saber Tank

~Kalamadea (aka ember)
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 Kalamadea wrote:
Good LORD you people are salty! It's an AT-ST and an airspeeder**, that look exactly like an AT-ST and an airspeeder**. The cards in packs thing sucks, but is a surprise to exactly zero people. I'm sure somebody will scan them, which is all I need, I already have 1/48th AT-STs and speeders aplenty, but it's nice to have official ones too.


Come for the news, get damp from the tears. Continues the fine tradition of "If only X, I would spend my life savings on it. What a shame. Hard pass" eye-rollers.

Models look fantastic. This game will sell about a bazillion copies to people that actually play miniatures games versus people who just like to hear themselves talk about playing miniatures games

So, question. I notice the ad copy says "In the Stormtroopers Unit Expansion, you’ll find seven Stormtrooper miniatures, identical to the ones included in the Star Wars: Legion Core Set, along with the unit card and upgrade cards that you need to add another unit of Stormtroopers to your army."
I'm trying to find any source where this means 100% that it will include pay-to-win cards that everyone is bitching about? Because the wording seems that it's cards that you use within the confines of listbuilding "that you need to add another unit of Stormtroopers to your army." Like how you can't use one Warjack card to represent two Warjacks in WMH.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/27 16:31:45


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 judgedoug wrote:
 Kalamadea wrote:
Good LORD you people are salty! It's an AT-ST and an airspeeder**, that look exactly like an AT-ST and an airspeeder**. The cards in packs thing sucks, but is a surprise to exactly zero people. I'm sure somebody will scan them, which is all I need, I already have 1/48th AT-STs and speeders aplenty, but it's nice to have official ones too.


Come for the news, get damp from the tears. Continues the fine tradition of "If only X, I would spend my life savings on it. What a shame. Hard pass" eye-rollers.

Models look fantastic. This game will sell about a bazillion copies to people that actually play miniatures games versus people who just like to hear themselves talk about playing miniatures games

So, question. I notice the ad copy says "In the Stormtroopers Unit Expansion, you’ll find seven Stormtrooper miniatures, identical to the ones included in the Star Wars: Legion Core Set, along with the unit card and upgrade cards that you need to add another unit of Stormtroopers to your army."
I'm trying to find any source where this means 100% that it will include pay-to-win cards that everyone is bitching about? Because the wording seems that it's cards that you use within the confines of listbuilding "that you need to add another unit of Stormtroopers to your army." Like how you can't use one Warjack card to represent two Warjacks in WMH.


Putting the 'good' cards in boxes that will sell anyway isn't the FFG way, the best cards are in slightly more niche releases that might struggle to sell without the card, aka the Starviper phenomenon (i think there's an equivalent in Armada too), so expect to see 'crappy droid thing' or 'gungan comedy troupe' holding the whizbang (double bonus if the cards are the 'wrong' faction)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/27 18:25:32


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 Kriswall wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:
You mean, other than 40k being the main competitor for that thoughtspace?


This isn't 40k. Go watch Rogue One. A blind man shoots a TIE Fighter out of the sky. I think it's reasonable to assume that a dozen Stormtroopers can potentially hit an Airspeeder, which again, is slower than a TIE Fighter... especially when trying to hit Infantry. Also, you may not like Flyers, but they work fine in 40k. I don't like them either, but it's not like the game table catches on fire when you try to field one. It just changes the play experience a little because you have a new target type to deal with.


Just for note, a TIE Fighters maximum speed is 1,200 km/h. That blind man (Chirrut) was using an extremely powerful weapon and is a force sensitive that uses the force to 'see' which allows him to actually shoot like he does, he doesn't exactly fire like a normal stormtrooper would.

The T-47 Airspeeder has a top speed of 1,100 km/h

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/28 11:40:13


 
   
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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Just for note, a TIE Fighters maximum speed is 1,200 km/h. That blind man (Chirrut) was using an extremely powerful weapon and is a force sensitive that uses the force to 'see' which allows him to actually shoot like he does, he doesn't exactly fire like a normal stormtrooper would.

The T-47 Airspeeder has a top speed of 1,100 km/h

Not much of a difference.

And the bigger question is what is an Airspeeder's minimum speed? It's fixed wing, so it can't really fill the role of a helicopter very easily.

It seems at this scale, the time flying across the 3x3 battlefield would be about a half-second. That is a total guess however - does someone want to do a quick calculation with some math?

Mez

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/10/28 13:41:43


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 Mezmaron wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Just for note, a TIE Fighters maximum speed is 1,200 km/h. That blind man (Chirrut) was using an extremely powerful weapon and is a force sensitive that uses the force to 'see' which allows him to actually shoot like he does, he doesn't exactly fire like a normal stormtrooper would.

The T-47 Airspeeder has a top speed of 1,100 km/h

Not much of a difference.

And the bigger question is what is an Airspeeder's minimum speed? It's fixed wing, so it can't really fill the role of a helicopter very easily.

It seems at this scale, the time flying across the 3x3 battlefield would be about a half-second. That is a total guess however - does someone want to do a quick calculation with some math?

Mez


Since apparently I don't have anything better to do...

1,100km/h translates to about 305m/s.

36' at a scale of 1/50 (32mm) translates to 45m

So it takes about 0.15 seconds to get from one board edge to the opposite board edge.*



Edit: *Provided I got the scale about right. I'n bit familiar with the Imperial Assault models and they're the only ones I've seen a scale comparison with.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/28 14:54:08


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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 Kriswall wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:
You mean, other than 40k being the main competitor for that thoughtspace?


This isn't 40k. Go watch Rogue One. A blind man shoots a TIE Fighter out of the sky. I think it's reasonable to assume that a dozen Stormtroopers can potentially hit an Airspeeder, which again, is slower than a TIE Fighter... especially when trying to hit Infantry. Also, you may not like Flyers, but they work fine in 40k. I don't like them either, but it's not like the game table catches on fire when you try to field one. It just changes the play experience a little because you have a new target type to deal with.


Just for note, a TIE Fighters maximum speed is 1,200 km/h. That blind man (Chirrut) was using an extremely powerful weapon and is a force sensitive that uses the force to 'see' which allows him to actually shoot like he does, he doesn't exactly fire like a normal stormtrooper would.

The T-47 Airspeeder has a top speed of 1,100 km/h


Where did you get these numbers from? I ask because every TIE fighter in every movie actually appears to be moving quite slowly. More like 100km/h than 1000.

The space battles in the films are based on WW1 dogfights because it’s far more exciting than watching a realistic sci fi space combat, which would probably have ships firing at ranges measured in kilometres towards enemies they can’t even see. My point is, don’t get too attached to the concept of realism in sci fi.

   
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 Mezmaron wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Just for note, a TIE Fighters maximum speed is 1,200 km/h. That blind man (Chirrut) was using an extremely powerful weapon and is a force sensitive that uses the force to 'see' which allows him to actually shoot like he does, he doesn't exactly fire like a normal stormtrooper would.

The T-47 Airspeeder has a top speed of 1,100 km/h

Not much of a difference.

And the bigger question is what is an Airspeeder's minimum speed? It's fixed wing, so it can't really fill the role of a helicopter very easily.

It seems at this scale, the time flying across the 3x3 battlefield would be about a half-second. That is a total guess however - does someone want to do a quick calculation with some math?

Mez



What does the fixed wing have to do with anything? Luke's car had no wings, and the hovering probe droid was sort of jellyfish shaped. Repulsorlift technology makes wings completely irrelevant for anything other than high speed maneuvering...in which case, why was the vehicle as aerodynamic as a picnic table?

   
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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

What does the fixed wing have to do with anything? Luke's car had no wings, and the hovering probe droid was sort of jellyfish shaped. Repulsorlift technology makes wings completely irrelevant for anything other than high speed maneuvering...in which case, why was the vehicle as aerodynamic as a picnic table?

Yeah, that is a good point. Who knows - maybe they can hover in place?

But I guess my point is that the Airspeeder in the movies appears to be more "fixed-wingy" than most other craft. The Airspeeder is more aerodynamic than a probe-droid and appears to move more like a typical fixed-wing aircraft. We never get to see for sure if it can hover because, I'm guessing, to avoid getting shot by AT-ATs they were moving pretty quick in ESB.

I still feel that they are slightly out of place in SW:L, but then again I'm a 40K player and don't like flyers in that game either.

I'm just trying to picture an Airspeeder fighting in the Endor Bunker Battle scene. Seems like less of a good fit in a skirmish type battle. Which brings us back to the old scale choice discussion, which I don't want to re-examine.

UPDATE - Based on the latest pictures form Essen, we now know that the game will use a "sliding scale" for some units. So one can imagine that the Airspeeder is really just flying high above the battlefield, not along the ground with the other units. Which makes more sense. Kinda like how Battlefront scales the aircraft differently in Flames of War.



Mez

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/10/28 16:57:09


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Mezmaron wrote:And the bigger question is what is an Airspeeder's minimum speed? It's fixed wing, so it can't really fill the role of a helicopter very easily.

Canonically, all Star Wars airspeeders are "powered by a combination of repulsorlift generators and either ion drives or air-breathing jet thrusters" and have stall speeds of zero, meaning they can hover above ground just fine.

MonkeyBallistic wrote:Where did you get these numbers from? I ask because every TIE fighter in every movie actually appears to be moving quite slowly. More like 100km/h than 1000.

The space battles in the films are based on WW1 dogfights because it’s far more exciting than watching a realistic sci fi space combat, which would probably have ships firing at ranges measured in kilometres towards enemies they can’t even see. My point is, don’t get too attached to the concept of realism in sci fi.

The numbers come from Lucas Licensing's Holocron, whose manager is Leland Chee.

As to the TIE/ln Fighter, it's always been at the top end of speed, with the A-Wing and TIE Interceptor above it and basically everything else below it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/28 18:18:31


 
   
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We'll find out soon enough eh.

Ugh, I hate "sliding scale" even more than I hate "you have to buy stuff you don't want to get the good cards".

You can *just about* get away with it for a naval combat game when talking about, like, fighter craft, but there is zero excuse for it in a game like this, and less than zero when talking about a vehicle that's only a bit bigger than your average sedan.

*sigh* And I'll bet you a tenner that if a properly-scaled Snowspeeder kit does exist out there somewhere, it'll be one of those monstrously expensive "collector" things. Godammit FFG.

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 Yodhrin wrote:
Ugh, I hate "sliding scale" even more than I hate "you have to buy stuff you don't want to get the good cards".


Well maybe instead of thinking that these types of games are mini games, think of them as card games where you get a mini included. Basically this is what it is. It's a card game like Magic the Gathering with minis as well. Problem solved.

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
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I'm REALLY not a fan of sliding scale for vehicles. I though the speeder looked a bit small. now I wonder if the AT ST is as well. I don't see any reason why anything in the game needs to be at a different scale.

Davor wrote:
 Yodhrin wrote:
Ugh, I hate "sliding scale" even more than I hate "you have to buy stuff you don't want to get the good cards".


Basically this is what it is. It's a card game like Magic the Gathering with minis as well. Problem solved.


But thats not really what it is at all. It has miniatures which you place on a table top, move and measure distance between. Neither X-Wing or Armada is anything like Magic at all, and I wouldn't expect this to be either.
   
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It's repulsorlift technology, aka anti-grav, so the minimum airspeed needed to maintain flight would be 0. It's like Luke's Landspeeder, it still hovers even when he parks it. Same as the Millenium Falcon or Lambda shuttles, they can go as fast or as slow as needed. Even the speederbikes don't actually need to maintain a minimum speed, they're already floating when Luke and Leia hop on in RotJ.

Inertia's a different matter, once they're going that fast they'll need some time/distance to make their turns or slow down.

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 Mezmaron wrote:
UPDATE - Based on the latest pictures form Essen, we now know that the game will use a "sliding scale" for some units. So one can imagine that the Airspeeder is really just flying high above the battlefield, not along the ground with the other units. Which makes more sense. Kinda like how Battlefront scales the aircraft differently in Flames of War.


Hopefully there is a bit of perspective shenanigans going on with that Essen pic. The preview on the FFG site https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2017/10/26/outfitted-for-cold/ has a top down shot next to a AT-ST where it looks about the right size in comparison. It also mentions a compulsory move rule for the T-47.
   
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The sliding scale for models is a bit frustrating. And I know I'm unusual, but for me the "sliding" scale was a big reason I stayed out of Armada.

But the Airspeeder isn't THAT far off on scale. Just slightly small:



Here is the part that really pisses me off - the Airspeeder WOULD be in scale with IA miniatures.



And would it have been difficult to include a transparent stand for it?



Mez

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/10/28 21:28:20


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Apparently they do come with transparent stands, the studio painter just painted it.
   
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Aeneades wrote:
Apparently they do come with transparent stands, the studio painter just painted it.


Whew! Much easier to have a bad decision on the studio painter's part than on the manufacturer's side!

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A clear stand can be difficult to mask out in photoshop for preview images, hence being painted, so it may be as much a marketing decision.

   
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 Mezmaron wrote:


[b]Here is the part that really pisses me off - the Airspeeder WOULD be in scale with IA miniatures.

Which had me thinking 'Ooh, handy!'... and then I remembered that I still have 9 of the WotC speeders anyway

   
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Right? Plus there's a 1/48th snowspeeder made by bandai, and the troops shown at gencon are consistent with 1/48th compared to 28/32mm

Either way, my concern with scale is humanoid figures, as long as the vehicles are close.

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jake wrote:I'm REALLY not a fan of sliding scale for vehicles. I though the speeder looked a bit small. now I wonder if the AT ST is as well. I don't see any reason why anything in the game needs to be at a different scale.

Davor wrote:
 Yodhrin wrote:
Ugh, I hate "sliding scale" even more than I hate "you have to buy stuff you don't want to get the good cards".


Basically this is what it is. It's a card game like Magic the Gathering with minis as well. Problem solved.


But thats not really what it is at all. It has miniatures which you place on a table top, move and measure distance between. Neither X-Wing or Armada is anything like Magic at all, and I wouldn't expect this to be either.


I guess I worded it wrong. I know it's a mini game, but what I ment was if you think of it as a card game and you are buying it for the cards and you get the mini included then Yohrin wouldn't have to hate it because 'ou have to buy stuff you don't want to get the good cards'. "

*edit* for spelling

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/29 04:38:52


Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
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If you are a competitive player then winning games matters more to you than saving dollars, right? And if you don't care about competing then having official copies of every single card from FFG doesn't matter to you, right?

   
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We'll find out soon enough eh.

Davor wrote:
jake wrote:I'm REALLY not a fan of sliding scale for vehicles. I though the speeder looked a bit small. now I wonder if the AT ST is as well. I don't see any reason why anything in the game needs to be at a different scale.

Davor wrote:
 Yodhrin wrote:
Ugh, I hate "sliding scale" even more than I hate "you have to buy stuff you don't want to get the good cards".


Basically this is what it is. It's a card game like Magic the Gathering with minis as well. Problem solved.


But thats not really what it is at all. It has miniatures which you place on a table top, move and measure distance between. Neither X-Wing or Armada is anything like Magic at all, and I wouldn't expect this to be either.


I guess I worded it wrong. I know it's a mini game, but what I ment was if you think of it as a card game and you are buying it for the cards and you get the mini included then Yohrin wouldn't have to hate it because 'ou have to buy stuff you don't want to get the good cards'. "

*edit* for spelling


Why would I do that though? I like tabletop miniatures games, if I wanted to play a card game I'd go and play MTG.

 Manchu wrote:
If you are a competitive player then winning games matters more to you than saving dollars, right? And if you don't care about competing then having official copies of every single card from FFG doesn't matter to you, right?


Why would you think not having access to the full ruleset wouldn't matter to someone? I mean if GW started releasing codices with half the units and gear missing, then selling cards with the stats for those units and gear in the boxes for other units, sometimes not even for the same subfaction or even race, would you seriously argue that people shouldn't care about that unless they're hyper competitive because, well hey, you don't need to give your Captain a Power Sword to play the game yeah? Christ the GW fandom just about rioted at even the idea of codex supplements for Marine subfactions, and that was back when they cost four quid and codices cost eight.

EDIT: Oh and apparently you can't be a competitive player and short on cash?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/29 09:00:27


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These games either fit in your budget or they don't. The same is true of Magic. The same is true of 40k. I know how irritating it can be not to be able to afford something you want. Most of us have been there/are there. But competitive X-Wing isn't a millionaire's club, either. The price is obviously well supported by the market for the game. Legion seems like it will be similar, in that regard.

The "complete ruleset" ... I disagree with that characterization. The game isn't structured like 40k and that makes sense. GW's printed material is meant to support what they manufacture: miniatures. By contrast, FFG (which doesn't appear to manufacture anything) publishes games made up of components, which can include miniatures. Their lines are structured around an expansion system. Moreover, you can find all the information you need to proxy any option online for X-Wing. No doubt, the same will be true of Legion.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/29 10:30:49


   
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We'll find out soon enough eh.

 Manchu wrote:
These games either fit in your budget or they don't. The same is true of Magic. The same is true of 40k. I know how irritating it can be not to be able to afford something you want. Most of us have been there/are there. But competitive X-Wing isn't a millionaire's club, either. The price is obviously well supported by the market for the game. Legion seems like it will be similar, in that regard.


You understand people's frustration, but feel the need to make patronising comments about money management anyway. Hmm. And it will be entirely unsurprising to you to know that I don't give a flying fig about "the market" - some people will buy anything, and a minority of them will do so to a daft degree, the whole F2P videogame model depends on that; humans are not rational actors we're pretentious apes.

The "complete ruleset" ... I disagree with that characterization.


Evidently.

The game isn't structured like 40k and that makes sense. GW's printed material is meant to support what they manufacture: miniatures. By contrast, FFG (which doesn't appear to manufacture anything) publishes games made up of components, which can include miniatures. Their lines are structured around an expansion system. Moreover, you can find all the information you need to proxy any option online for X-Wing. No doubt, the same will be true of Legion.


As far as I'm concerned, the only rational definition for "complete ruleset" is the totality of rules available for the system. That's what "complete" means. What format the rules come in is irrelevant, FFG could be selling games where the components are different coloured jelly babies, the issue is the the business model they've chosen to implement around those components. If FFG were selling the cards as a deck at a reasonable price nobody would have any issue, the problem is them putting superior cards - cards that are often necessary to fix previous releases that FFG either failed or intentionally failed to properly balance - into boxes of models that often people don't even want let alone need because that practice allows them to artificially inflate the price of both items. As for "proxying" cards - fine if your gaming is you and a pal in your house, not so useful if you're stuck gaming in a store, or if you ever want to enter any kind of organised play, since in either case they tend to frown on people pirating rules.

As I said, I've already made my decision; I'll buy the models I want and play a different game with them, the cards thing won't be a direct problem for me, but the system is exploitative garbage and shouldn't be excused or ignored.

I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
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"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
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Fixture of Dakka




 Yodhrin wrote:
Davor wrote:
Spoiler:
jake wrote:I'm REALLY not a fan of sliding scale for vehicles. I though the speeder looked a bit small. now I wonder if the AT ST is as well. I don't see any reason why anything in the game needs to be at a different scale.

Davor wrote:
 Yodhrin wrote:
Ugh, I hate "sliding scale" even more than I hate "you have to buy stuff you don't want to get the good cards".


Basically this is what it is. It's a card game like Magic the Gathering with minis as well. Problem solved.


But thats not really what it is at all. It has miniatures which you place on a table top, move and measure distance between. Neither X-Wing or Armada is anything like Magic at all, and I wouldn't expect this to be either.


I guess I worded it wrong. I know it's a mini game, but what I ment was if you think of it as a card game and you are buying it for the cards and you get the mini included then Yohrin wouldn't have to hate it because 'ou have to buy stuff you don't want to get the good cards'. "

*edit* for spelling


Why would I do that though? I like tabletop miniatures games, if I wanted to play a card game I'd go and play MTG.


Just trying to look at it differently. I guess because I see so much negativity and trying to change, when I saw this and trying to turn a negative into a positive. I ment don't look at it as buying a mini you don't want put for the cards, look at it as buying it for the cards, and getting a mini with it. Perspective. Was just trying to help. I will go hide now under my rock.

Davor

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
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[MOD]
Reanimator






RVA

It's not patronising to point out that we're talking about budegting disposable income when the complaint is about the price of toys. Whether a given person can afford to buy everything they want cannot form the basis of a valid criticism about how much these toys cost.

Davor makes a good point. Many people are used to thinking about mini games from the perspective of being GW customers: models and rules are largely separate products. This is just not how FFG operates. When you buy a FFG game the box includes all kinds of components: cards, tokens, miniatures, etc. Each expansion box expands the game. It may well be there is only one thing in the expansion you want. That is your issue, however, rather than FFG's.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/29 22:21:17


   
 
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