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Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el





East Coast, USA

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Shocked confused and angry?

I’m more disappointed.

I’m not at all a fan of the business model of having useful upgrade cards in kits I’m not otherwise fussed for.

X-Wing is particularly bad for this. Not only may I not be especially fussed for a model, but it might even be a model that’s for a different faction.

That to me is just mercenary as a sales tactic.

And worse? Sucky models are made good, but only if you buy a boxed set. Worst offender there is the Imperial Raider. Now it’s a gorgeous model, but it’s flipping expensive. And as it can only be used in Epic play, my chances for using it are somewhat reduced. But if I don’t want my iconic TIE Advanced to fly like a brick and hit like a feather, it’s a purchase I need to make.

That’s just bloody rude.

Armada isn’t quite as bad. From what I gather, the upgrades are kept within the Factions, so I won’t need to buy Imperial Ship X to make Rebel Ship A work properly. Better, but still the chance I may wind up buying ships just for the cards.

Shadespire? Marginally better than Armada, if only due to cost. Time will tell how essential it becomes to buy outside your Warband to get that truly killer card upon which the most flexible combo depends. If we don’t need to buy other Warbands, it may yet get a pass from me. But until we know, I’m not diving in.



Star Wars X-Wing requires that you buy every product if you want ALL of the options for your chosen faction.
Star Wars Aramada requires that you buy every product if you want ALL of the options for your chosen faction.
Shadespire requires that you buy every warband if you want ALL of the options for your chosen faction.
Runewars, the most recent of these sorts of games from FFG, only requires that you buy the units from your chosen faction to get all of the options for that factions.

While we are waiting for confirmation, the belief is that Legion will work just like Runewars. If you only want to play Imperials, you'll only have to buy Imperial units. This is based on what we've seen so far from the available options. The neutral card options appear to be available in multiple kits.

For ALL of the above games, you can be quite competitive and win tournaments without owning ALL of the options. Nobody is making you buy anything and blaming a company for coming up with an effective tactic to make you want to buy something seems a little odd. That's literally their job. FFG's core function is to make you buy stuff... not to design games so that you can buy LESS stuff. If you don't like it, don't buy in.

I FAR prefer FFG's tactic of occasionally getting me to buy a box I don't really want for some cards to GW's tactic of forcing me to spend hundreds of dollars on rules just to field one cross faction army.

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Completed Trades With: ultraatma 
   
Made in us
Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh





Devon, UK

 LunarSol wrote:
It's more that it works exactly like everyone expected it to work, but people are disappointed that its not different because they've grown to dislike the way FFG works.


Yeah, kinda. Not so much how FFG works in a business sense (although the whole "6 expansions in 6 weeks" thing they're now doing with L5R, which was announced just long enough after the starters went out to ensure people had probably picked them up already, hasn't helped me personally) but the fact that if you play a few different FFG games they all start to feel a bit samey is what's cooled my enthusiasm for this release.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el





East Coast, USA

 Azreal13 wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
It's more that it works exactly like everyone expected it to work, but people are disappointed that its not different because they've grown to dislike the way FFG works.


Yeah, kinda. Not so much how FFG works in a business sense (although the whole "6 expansions in 6 weeks" thing they're now doing with L5R, which was announced just long enough after the starters went out to ensure people had probably picked them up already, hasn't helped me personally) but the fact that if you play a few different FFG games they all start to feel a bit samey is what's cooled my enthusiasm for this release.


The 'a bit samey' feeling is very valid, I think. It's how I feel about GW stuff. It's all the same game with different models. Every release feels like more of the same. Even 8th Edition just feels like more of the same. It's just 7th with some stuff from AoS mixed in. Realistically, it would take an extremely minor amount of house ruling to have a 40k army fight an AoS army.

With FFG, I tend to think of it as being great because I know I'll be able to pick up the rules quickly and that they'll incorporate all the things that worked from previous games plus some new things. The game itself feels completely different. X-Wing doesn't feel anything at all like Armada to me, despite sharing a lot of similar mechanics. 40k feels almost exactly like AoS.

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Completed Trades With: ultraatma 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





My issue is just that I've gotten to a place where I don't really want to manage cards anymore and X-Wing is the worst when it comes to managing a card collection. I really don't want to start something similar with Armada or Legion or Runewars or whatever. I'll be super happy once Malifaux gets their digital app out and would absolutely love something similar for FFG. (Really sad there isn't a better option on iOS in particular)
   
Made in nl
Moustache-twirling Princeps




We'll find out soon enough eh.

I mean I'm pretty much already resigned to buying into this just for the models and actually playing using a saner, less exploitative set of rules, but this idea that it's completely ridiculous and outlandish for people to be annoyed at FFG for using an exploitative business model "bcuz capitalism brah" is just farcical.

Not being able to buy into a game you'd otherwise enjoy with an IP you really like because you don't want to support a company's gakky business practices is an entirely reasonable reason to be annoyed.

I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Riverside, CA USA

[quote}It's almost like people are taking their experiences with the producing company and other games based on the same property and applying them to this one, isn't it?

It's more like people are forgetting how this company releases games and are shocked that these expansion packs are exactly like every expansion pack FFG does

...but its pretty justified. If you've been a FFG customer (not a fanboy) then you realize how bad this game/release is

I am not a FFG fanboy, but I do have Xwing and IA. The cards are available online if you want to go through resellers, and the images are available if you just want to print out your own. DIY cards aren't "legal" at tourneys, but if you put in some effort making em look decent and put everything in sleeves you won't have any issues. Nobody I've ever gamed with is going to go for your throat over a "counterfeit" Advanced Sensors card.

It's more that it works exactly like everyone expected it to work, but people are disappointed that its not different because they've grown to dislike the way FFG works.

I get that, it was repeated so many times in the announcement thread that it's hard to miss. I kinda feel like it's on the official record and understood by this point. Azrael13's complaint about the flight stem not being clear I find to be rather nitpicky, but it's at least a comment about the new figures and not a rehash of the same "cards with minis" issue that people have complained about literally since the first X-wing wave


~Kalamadea (aka ember)
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 warboss wrote:
Is the rulebook going to be a free download for this like other FFG games (notably xwing)?

From what I know, yes. Also, not in the box.
   
Made in us
Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh





Devon, UK

 Kalamadea wrote:
Spoiler:
It's almost like people are taking their experiences with the producing company and other games based on the same property and applying them to this one, isn't it?

It's more like people are forgetting how this company releases games and are shocked that these expansion packs are exactly like every expansion pack FFG does

...but its pretty justified. If you've been a FFG customer (not a fanboy) then you realize how bad this game/release is

I am not a FFG fanboy, but I do have Xwing and IA. The cards are available online if you want to go through resellers, and the images are available if you just want to print out your own. DIY cards aren't "legal" at tourneys, but if you put in some effort making em look decent and put everything in sleeves you won't have any issues. Nobody I've ever gamed with is going to go for your throat over a "counterfeit" Advanced Sensors card.

It's more that it works exactly like everyone expected it to work, but people are disappointed that its not different because they've grown to dislike the way FFG works.

I get that, it was repeated so many times in the announcement thread that it's hard to miss. I kinda feel like it's on the official record and understood by this point. Azrael13's complaint about the flight stem not being clear I find to be rather nitpicky, but it's at least a comment about the new figures and not a rehash of the same "cards with minis" issue that people have complained about literally since the first X-wing wave



Why does it have to be a complaint? It's an observation, I would say a fairly well founded one.

Remarking that it's unusual for a company that already makes a lot of transparent components not to outfit this kit with one being a little odd (or painting it in its publicity photos, which is equally odd) hardly ranks as a complaint!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/26 21:24:11


We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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RVA

If the flight stem isn't clear, that would be very weird.

   
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Hangin' with Gork & Mork






 Albertorius wrote:
 warboss wrote:
Is the rulebook going to be a free download for this like other FFG games (notably xwing)?

From what I know, yes. Also, not in the box.


Thanks. So the rules won't be in the box? That's a big change if true.

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Riverside, CA USA

The flight stem is clearly a separate piece stuck into the base, it might still be in the prototype stages, it might be clear, it might be hard opaque plastic. It's painted the same color as the base rim, so I hadn't given it any thought until I read "They produce/order half a bajillion metric tonnes a month of transparent plastic for X Wing and the Speeder can't have a clear stem?". If that's not a complaint then you have an odd way of "observing" things. It honestly wasn't even meant as an attack on you, I mostly brought it up to point out that you were at least discussing the product itself, and the "nitpicky" remark was mostly because there's really no way to tell from that picture if it is/isn't/won't be clear, and because it's such a minor issue to replace a stem if you prefer a certain look. Like Manchu says, if it isn't clear then it would be odd, but it's not hard to replace it with clear acrylic rod if you really like the clear look. I prefer brass rod or a large steel nail painted black, but that's mostly because I've had so many issues over the years with clear styrene being so damned brittle that I go out of my way to replace it.

As for the rulebook not being in the box, that WOULD be a big change. FFG's big push the last few years has been 2 seperate rulebooks, a "start playing" walkthrough and a "glossary of rules", and it's worked quite well so far. They've been releasing these as PDFs online as well, but not having physical rulebooks in a starter set for ANY miniatures game would be odd, let alone a FFG game. I wonder how much of this is true to retail release and how much is just that we're still seeing what are essentially prototypes previewed.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/26 22:15:50


~Kalamadea (aka ember)
My image gallery 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I wonder how they will handle the Luke and Vader models? With Armada and X-Wing releasing everything in the core box individually was not a problem as it was just another ship of the same type with a different pilot or crew. But with Legion the Luke and Vader models are of specific unique individuals so having multiples doesn't really appeal. FFG usual tactic of reboxing with different cards seems like a sure fire way to put off potential fans in this case. Different sculpts could work, especially with Luke who has several different looks(and power levels) through the movies. But the minor differences in Vaders costume probably wouldn't be noticeable in Legions scale(whatever that might be). So would a reposed Vader sell? Or could they keep two of SW most iconic characters as core box exclusives?
   
Made in us
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100% core box exclusive I’d wager. Pretty sure runewars did the same.
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob





SoCal

None of this being an issue for me since I plan to print all the cards I need.

   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

I understand why they did it, but I don't get why the first Rebel vehicle is a flyer. Such a thing is entirely too fast for this scale of game, no matter what Games Workshop thinks.

Rebels should have got something like the hovertank from Rogue One, or something similar like seen all throughout the Clone Wars. Hell, even a landspeeder with a weapon attached, like the one used on Naboo, would make more sense than an Airspeeder.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/26 23:48:14




"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Murray, Kentucky

The costs aren't as high as I expected them to be. Not a steal obviously, but at least they're roughly GW to a bit less, depending on what you use as a reference.

Big question will be how nice the minis are, and if the game can avoid the same fate that X-Wing has in terms of being married to the upgrade card, specialized dice, and movement template systems.

Also curious to see if they're going to release terrain.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

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Made in gb
Most Glorious Grey Seer






 AegisGrimm wrote:
I understand why they did it, but I don't get why the first Rebel vehicle is a flyer. Such a thing is entirely too fast for this scale of game, no matter what Games Workshop thinks.

Rebels should have got something like the hovertank from Rogue One, or something similar like seen all throughout the Clone Wars. Hell, even a landspeeder with a weapon attached, like the one used on Naboo, would make more sense than an Airspeeder.


Not sure what GW has to do with this game?

Fed up for Scalpers? Why not join us? 
   
Made in ie
Fresh-Faced New User




 LunarSol wrote:
100% core box exclusive I’d wager. Pretty sure runewars did the same.


Yep, they released a separate Luke Skywalker a few waves later in RoTJ style.

I wonder if they will rebox Imperial Assault models with Legion cards...
   
Made in gb
Kelne



West Sussex, UK

Ancient Otter wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
100% core box exclusive I’d wager. Pretty sure runewars did the same.


Yep, they released a separate Luke Skywalker a few waves later in RoTJ style.

I wonder if they will rebox Imperial Assault models with Legion cards...


The Imperial Assault models are a different scale so this is extremely unlikely.
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob





SoCal

It's highly likely they're reusing the 3D sculpts, but having the molds cut large to preserve more detail, and I'm okay with that.

And that's about as much IA talk I want to stomach because I'm quite tired of the same IA complaints and yadda yadda yadda.

The airspeeder is a bit strange to see, but considering how fast you see the bikes operating at, it's not a stretch. It's certainly a better match up for the AT-ST than AT-ATs.

   
Made in ie
Fresh-Faced New User




 Vertrucio wrote:
It's highly likely they're reusing the 3D sculpts, but having the molds cut large to preserve more detail, and I'm okay with that.

And that's about as much IA talk I want to stomach because I'm quite tired of the same IA complaints and yadda yadda yadda.

The airspeeder is a bit strange to see, but considering how fast you see the bikes operating at, it's not a stretch. It's certainly a better match up for the AT-ST than AT-ATs.



I was't complaining, my apologies.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aeneades wrote:
Ancient Otter wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
100% core box exclusive I’d wager. Pretty sure runewars did the same.


Yep, they released a separate Luke Skywalker a few waves later in RoTJ style.

I wonder if they will rebox Imperial Assault models with Legion cards...


The Imperial Assault models are a different scale so this is extremely unlikely.


Ah, I didn't know that . Ta for that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/27 09:44:40


 
   
Made in nl
Moustache-twirling Princeps




We'll find out soon enough eh.

 LunarSol wrote:
100% core box exclusive I’d wager. Pretty sure runewars did the same.


I'd be perfectly happy with that TBH, having the movie characters in charge of every single tabletop battle will just get tiresome - they're awesome because we see them do awesome things, I have no desire to reenact the 347th time Luke Skywalker and a squad of Rebels had a minor skirmish with an Empire patrol while on a supply run to Planet Boringstory, or the 95th time Vader effortlessly butchered a minor Rebel cell at their safehouse in the City of Snores.

Special Characters should, by and large, be for awesome special scenarios. For your regular game with a couple of squads and a vehicle on each side skirmishing over some minor objective as part of the larger war, I prefer having more appropriate, "street level" commanders, people who's heroism in that situation actually has some meaning because they're not a Lord of the Sith or the last Jedi Knight or a Princess-General etc.

I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 AegisGrimm wrote:
I understand why they did it, but I don't get why the first Rebel vehicle is a flyer. Such a thing is entirely too fast for this scale of game, no matter what Games Workshop thinks.

Rebels should have got something like the hovertank from Rogue One, or something similar like seen all throughout the Clone Wars. Hell, even a landspeeder with a weapon attached, like the one used on Naboo, would make more sense than an Airspeeder.


Not sure what GW has to do with this game?


They have the same idea of having extremely fast aircraft practically circle-strafing in a game on a 4x6 board (3x4 in the case of legions), where the scales involved would normally mean that such models would enter and exit the board in one turn.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/27 10:38:28




"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
   
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But what's that got to do with FFG going with the Airspeeder?

I mean, I genuinely agree about fliers in 40k. But it's just an odd statement to make when criticising FFG.

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West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

Because its nearly the same as having an X-wing in Legions. Legion really needs more than one squad of troops for each side before introducing flying vehicles.



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Under the couch

GoatboyBeta wrote:
So would a reposed Vader sell?

Probably, particularly if it's packaged with different rules.

For the WotC Star Wars miniatures game, they released either a Vader or an Anakin in every set. The Vaders all had different rules, so tended to be snapped up despite just being the same guy in a different pose.

Legion is a slightly different beast, but people are suckers for variant miniatures, particularly if they're good...

   
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 warboss wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:
 warboss wrote:
Is the rulebook going to be a free download for this like other FFG games (notably xwing)?

From what I know, yes. Also, not in the box.


Thanks. So the rules won't be in the box? That's a big change if true.

I've been told that's what FFG is doing going forward, and they've actually done it already with other games (L5R LCG for example): Learn to play booklet in the box and full rules as a download.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AegisGrimm wrote:
Because its nearly the same as having an X-wing in Legions. Legion really needs more than one squad of troops for each side before introducing flying vehicles.

Well, not exactly, as setting-wise an airspeeder is more similar to a copter than to a fighter.

Not that it matters much when they can pull 1,100 kph, though. OTOH it's pretty, it's iconic and game wise it fills a niche much more similar to a landspeeder than to an actual flyer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 AegisGrimm wrote:
I understand why they did it, but I don't get why the first Rebel vehicle is a flyer. Such a thing is entirely too fast for this scale of game, no matter what Games Workshop thinks.

Rebels should have got something like the hovertank from Rogue One, or something similar like seen all throughout the Clone Wars. Hell, even a landspeeder with a weapon attached, like the one used on Naboo, would make more sense than an Airspeeder.


Not sure what GW has to do with this game?


You mean, other than 40k being the main competitor for that thoughtspace?

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/10/27 14:19:05


 
   
Made in us
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East Coast, USA

 Albertorius wrote:
You mean, other than 40k being the main competitor for that thoughtspace?


This isn't 40k. Go watch Rogue One. A blind man shoots a TIE Fighter out of the sky. I think it's reasonable to assume that a dozen Stormtroopers can potentially hit an Airspeeder, which again, is slower than a TIE Fighter... especially when trying to hit Infantry. Also, you may not like Flyers, but they work fine in 40k. I don't like them either, but it's not like the game table catches on fire when you try to field one. It just changes the play experience a little because you have a new target type to deal with.

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The sad thing to me is that I played so much Shadows of the Empire back in the day I just assume that playing the Airspeeder will mostly consist of trying to put enough shots into the AT-ST to take it down, getting a little too greedy and slamming into it instead.
   
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Aeneades wrote:
I was expecting it but still disappointed to see new cards being added to these starter duplicate figure sets to force people to buy them over extra copies of the base game.

Also have to agree with the weird decision on the flight base.

It looks like the flight stem is painted ...

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