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So I've been tinkering away with my Adepta Sororitas fandex, specifically looking at the elite Celestians and Seraphim, but it got me thinking; who do I compare Seraphim against?

Everyone seems to agree that Assault Marines aren't very good right now, which can't be good for CSM Raptors who pay 1 point per model extra to swap all the good rules loyalists have for Fear which is generally useless. Warp Talons were a hard sell rules-wise when they were released (though I love the models) so they're presumably not too competitive either. Swooping Hawks seemed popular until the FAQ clarified (not nerfed) the folks using massed Haywire grenades, though their Intercept ability still seems neat against Flyers (but largely pointless against things like flying Daemon Princes).

Does anyone actually have good Jump Infantry right now?


I want to stress, I tend not to play competitively, so I'm not generally bothered by something being weak if I like the models or just feel like taking it, but I'm just curious what people think of the current Jump Infantry models and which ones are OP (if any), which are fair for the price and so-on.

Not really.

Vanguard veterans are pretty good! They nomnomnom through infantry!
(I run 5 with lightning claws and one with a thunder hammer).

Blood Angels / Flesh Tearers are better than most because of the Furious Charge and potential other boosts, like +1 Init or +1WS with Priest and FnP...

Still they're not great.

Chaos Raptors can pack two meltaguns in a minimum size squad, making them decent for tank-hunting. Bikes are better but that's a core rules issue.

Arguably Scourges are pretty good.

BA Sanguinary Guard and Assault Marines are pretty good
Sanguinary gaurd because you can give them all inferno pistols or plasma pistols
Assault marines because you can take 2 meltaguns and an Inferno Pistol in a 5 man squad

The problem is that CC has some big roadblocks compared to shooting, and most jump troops are choppy.

You tend to pay a premium for units just as tough as footsloggers, but are more expensive. Jump troops cant even use the two most common tricks to stay alive (hide in a vehicle or take cover) So you end up with an expensive unit out in the open. In a edition where that is a death sentence due to the firepower most armies can bring to bear.

Even if you do make it across the table, you still need to deal with charge distances and overwatch.

I think Vanguard Vets are fairly balanced. Very flexible gear options, and at a discount. Which is a rarity. Some nice special rules to help get into CC as well. If you wanted a template to base elite CC units off of, they should do OK.

Personally I like Swooping Hawks and think they're good.
Vanguard Veterans also seem good if....frustrating to me.

Theres 2 which i take in every list (from that army)
No:1 is preatorians from necrons give them blade and pistols they are choppy with 3a each @s5 with rending and entropic very good for any target.
no:2 are scorges with quad haywire or blasters preferably a unit of each hays to kill vehicals and blasters as back up/elite unit hunters there not to bad on survivability with a 6++ &4+ though there range should keep them out of trouble, at least untill there jobs done.

commander dante wrote:
BA Sanguinary Guard and Assault Marines are pretty good
Sanguinary gaurd because you can give them all inferno pistols or plasma pistols
Assault marines because you can take 2 meltaguns and an Inferno Pistol in a 5 man squad

Sanguinary guard are a dumpster fire because 2+ armor is crap now.

Martel732 wrote:

commander dante wrote:
BA Sanguinary Guard and Assault Marines are pretty good
Sanguinary gaurd because you can give them all inferno pistols or plasma pistols
Assault marines because you can take 2 meltaguns and an Inferno Pistol in a 5 man squad

Sanguinary guard are a dumpster fire because 2+ armor is crap now.

I dunno, they always perform me, pretty much ONLY them haha, my BA's still usually lose. But with a priest and FnP they can take a good shelling and they hit really hard in assault. Lots of master-crafted power-weapon attacks with some nice BA boosts.

I refuse to give a unit that expensive a babysitter. Most of the time, you'd be better off with regular ASM with a priest.

Hitting hard in assault is actually bad, as you want your target to live one round.

Martel732 wrote:
I refuse to give a unit that expensive a babysitter. Most of the time, you'd be better off with regular ASM with a priest.

Hitting hard in assault is actually bad, as you want your target to live one round.

My experience with ASM is ...they may cause a few wounds on the charge (totally buffed), then they die poorly over the next few turns. If the only goal is just to tie up an enemy unit for a few turns I guess that works.

I hear you on the cost of the unit and especially adding riders etc... I run a 10man unit with banner and they're not cheap (cheaper in this codex than last) but they do really perform well with a priest, have your Librarian join them, or Dante (hit and run) even better. They might also be the best option of keeping your warlord alive too.

One ion accelerator and everyone dies, no save. From that perspective, they are in the running for one of the worst units in the codex. A big part is giving up as few points to scatterlasers, IA, and D weapons as you can.

My Raptors did quite good so far, even if only as a transport for my lord (yeah... my bikes aren't finished yet).
You get what you pay for, fast standard Marines. Nothing more, nothing less.

StormBoyz.... Those are the only ones I have, therefore. The best jump soldiers in my opinion

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
My Raptors did quite good so far, even if only as a transport for my lord (yeah... my bikes aren't finished yet).
You get what you pay for, fast standard Marines. Nothing more, nothing less.

Except you are paying for krak grenades which you basically don't get anymore.

Martel732 wrote:
One ion accelerator and everyone dies, no save. From that perspective, they are in the running for one of the worst units in the codex. A big part is giving up as few points to scatterlasers, IA, and D weapons as you can.

An Ion Acceloerator will kill most infantry in the game, The fact that SG are on that long list is not proof they are bad.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
One ion accelerator and everyone dies, no save. From that perspective, they are in the running for one of the worst units in the codex. A big part is giving up as few points to scatterlasers, IA, and D weapons as you can.

An Ion Acceloerator will kill most infantry in the game, The fact that SG are on that long list is not proof they are bad.

Given what you pay for them, that makes them bad. The Tau are falling behind doing it to scouts and tac marines. They are getting way ahead doing it to SG. No one has gotten an SG charge off against me since 5th. Think about that for a minute. And that's with gak ass BA firepower.

Ork Stormboyz are utter garbage. An expensive boy with a 6+ save...and S3, not worth it.

On the other hand, are Crisis suits considered jump or jet? I want to say Jet, but if by some happy coincidence they are jump, I would say those.

Martel, Semper, who is worse? BA or Orks? Anddddddd, fight!

Seraphim are one of the best jump infantry units in the game, as they are now.

Not the best, that goes to Triarch Praetorians or Wraiths, but certainly better than ASM or Swooping Hawks.

Vanguard vets are good. Death company are good too.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Martel, Semper, who is worse? BA or Orks? Anddddddd, fight!

Depends on the foe and match-making system.

Probably dark eldar ones with haywire blasters.
Out of melee jump troops, i'd say vanguard vets in a formation that allows them to deepstrike and charge.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Vanguard vets are good. Death company are good too.

I feel that "good" is too strong of a word. Subpar but usable seems more accurate. TWC exist.

Bottom line here is that T4 3+ or T4 2+ are now poor statlines for 7th ed. Especially at the cost they are listed at.

Martel732 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
One ion accelerator and everyone dies, no save. From that perspective, they are in the running for one of the worst units in the codex. A big part is giving up as few points to scatterlasers, IA, and D weapons as you can.

An Ion Acceloerator will kill most infantry in the game, The fact that SG are on that long list is not proof they are bad.

Given what you pay for them, that makes them bad. The Tau are falling behind doing it to scouts and tac marines. They are getting way ahead doing it to SG. No one has gotten an SG charge off against me since 5th. Think about that for a minute. And that's with gak ass BA firepower.

Yeah again, I hear you on the cost, but this argument doesn't really make a lot of sense to me, ...and if the Tau take the heavy3 shot you can still use FnP with a priest, or utilize cover... the Ion Accelerator is just a tough tough weapon to face no matter what you have. The BA's are an elite army no matter how you shake it... we don't do tons of cheap fodder troops as well as most other 40k armies, even other marine armies.

Assault Marines are okay. Give them two Eviscerators and access to rerolls (from doctrines, a chaplain, etc) and they can do good work. I like taking a Sergeant armed with a Power Lance, but Power Fists work well too. Flamers aren't a bad buy if you have the points.

Just make sure to support them if you attack with them. Have a Rhino or two full of infantry cruising downfield with them, or a Vindicator, or some bikes. Don't throw them out there on their own and expect them to win the game for you; have them be part of a team.

I'm not sure if Assault Marines have a place at the absolute most competitive level of play, but I did play them at a NOVA-style GT recently where they did well. Playing at the most competitive level, though, is very much not my cup of tea, and I prefer a style that could be described as 'competitive, but heavily comped.' Assault Marines are perfectly good in those sorts of games.

 Gunzhard wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
One ion accelerator and everyone dies, no save. From that perspective, they are in the running for one of the worst units in the codex. A big part is giving up as few points to scatterlasers, IA, and D weapons as you can.

An Ion Acceloerator will kill most infantry in the game, The fact that SG are on that long list is not proof they are bad.

Given what you pay for them, that makes them bad. The Tau are falling behind doing it to scouts and tac marines. They are getting way ahead doing it to SG. No one has gotten an SG charge off against me since 5th. Think about that for a minute. And that's with gak ass BA firepower.

Yeah again, I hear you on the cost, but this argument doesn't really make a lot of sense to me, ...and if the Tau take the heavy3 shot you can still use FnP with a priest, or utilize cover... the Ion Accelerator is just a tough tough weapon to face no matter what you have. The BA's are an elite army no matter how you shake it... we don't do tons of cheap fodder troops as well as most other 40k armies, even other marine armies.

I stopped playing BA as elite back in 5th. If you try to roll elite, you make the codex even worse than it already is. Elite BA IS the worst list in the game, hands down. You have to spam the cheapest stuff you can, because your stuff WILL die, with little to no effort anymore.

If I could field each marine as an individual unit I would absolutely do this in order to mitigate losses from OP weapons.