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Triarch Praetorians can be good since they got a buff.

Praetorians are actually pretty rad. They just suffer from needing more investment than Wraiths and just not being Wraiths.

I stopped playing BA as elite back in 5th. If you try to roll elite, you make the codex even worse than it already is. Elite BA IS the worst list in the game, hands down. You have to spam the cheapest stuff you can, because your stuff WILL die, with little to no effort anymore.

If I could field each marine as an individual unit I would absolutely do this in order to mitigate losses from OP weapons.

Hmm alright... well what do you field? ...our scouts kind of stink, we do have an 'elite' codex no matter how you shake it though. I've been running SG all the time and they usually kick butt... although I'll agree they use up a big chunk of points.

They work for me how the Death Company used to work -- scaring opponents into spending tons of ammo on them, except now my DC just die while my SG still usually can pull off a brutal assault.

For what you're doing, regular space marines with free razorbacks would probably be better.

Assault Marines are pretty decent in the Skyhammer Formation where they can just jump into combat from Reserves on turn 1.

 Gunzhard wrote:

I stopped playing BA as elite back in 5th. If you try to roll elite, you make the codex even worse than it already is. Elite BA IS the worst list in the game, hands down. You have to spam the cheapest stuff you can, because your stuff WILL die, with little to no effort anymore.

If I could field each marine as an individual unit I would absolutely do this in order to mitigate losses from OP weapons.

Hmm alright... well what do you field? ...our scouts kind of stink, we do have an 'elite' codex no matter how you shake it though. I've been running SG all the time and they usually kick butt... although I'll agree they use up a big chunk of points.

They work for me how the Death Company used to work -- scaring opponents into spending tons of ammo on them, except now my DC just die while my SG still usually can pull off a brutal assault.

For what you're doing, regular space marines with free razorbacks would probably be better.

Things that kill DC also kill SG.

I field a lot of minimum squads with maxxed firepower. The only true assault list I even bother with is archangel sanguine wing, and it's hard to get that to work correctly. That list uses scouts as troops. Most of my other lists have 5 men in a fast Rhino as a troops.

Martel732 wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

I stopped playing BA as elite back in 5th. If you try to roll elite, you make the codex even worse than it already is. Elite BA IS the worst list in the game, hands down. You have to spam the cheapest stuff you can, because your stuff WILL die, with little to no effort anymore.

If I could field each marine as an individual unit I would absolutely do this in order to mitigate losses from OP weapons.

Hmm alright... well what do you field? ...our scouts kind of stink, we do have an 'elite' codex no matter how you shake it though. I've been running SG all the time and they usually kick butt... although I'll agree they use up a big chunk of points.

They work for me how the Death Company used to work -- scaring opponents into spending tons of ammo on them, except now my DC just die while my SG still usually can pull off a brutal assault.

For what you're doing, regular space marines with free razorbacks would probably be better.

Things that kill DC also kill SG.

I field a lot of minimum squads with maxxed firepower. The only true assault list I even bother with is archangel sanguine wing, and it's hard to get that to work correctly. That list uses scouts as troops. Most of my other lists have 5 men in a fast Rhino as a troops.

It seems like you must play against a lot of AP2 weapons... but 3+ armour and 2+ armour are not the same most of the time; and while both units arrive with a bunch of attacks, the SG all have master-crafted power weapons.

Anyway I know what you're saying... bottom line, the BA codex could be a lot better all around - but the min-max troop and/or scout thing would be much, much better with regular marines.

Scourges have always made their points back and more when I use them. Love the winged bastards

 Commissar Terrence wrote:
StormBoyz.... Those are the only ones I have, therefore. The best jump soldiers in my opinion

4 Stormboyz, and one Nob with Klaw. 80 Points?

On a WAAAGH, they can fly SOO far.

I don't get all the assault marine hate, mine have always performed really well. And Vanguard Vets are even better. Especially as part of the Shadowstrike kill team.

 Gunzhard wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

I stopped playing BA as elite back in 5th. If you try to roll elite, you make the codex even worse than it already is. Elite BA IS the worst list in the game, hands down. You have to spam the cheapest stuff you can, because your stuff WILL die, with little to no effort anymore.

If I could field each marine as an individual unit I would absolutely do this in order to mitigate losses from OP weapons.

Hmm alright... well what do you field? ...our scouts kind of stink, we do have an 'elite' codex no matter how you shake it though. I've been running SG all the time and they usually kick butt... although I'll agree they use up a big chunk of points.

They work for me how the Death Company used to work -- scaring opponents into spending tons of ammo on them, except now my DC just die while my SG still usually can pull off a brutal assault.

For what you're doing, regular space marines with free razorbacks would probably be better.

Things that kill DC also kill SG.

I field a lot of minimum squads with maxxed firepower. The only true assault list I even bother with is archangel sanguine wing, and it's hard to get that to work correctly. That list uses scouts as troops. Most of my other lists have 5 men in a fast Rhino as a troops.

It seems like you must play against a lot of AP2 weapons... but 3+ armour and 2+ armour are not the same most of the time; and while both units arrive with a bunch of attacks, the SG all have master-crafted power weapons.

Anyway I know what you're saying... bottom line, the BA codex could be a lot better all around - but the min-max troop and/or scout thing would be much, much better with regular marines.

Every MC in the game gets AP2 for free. That's not a good start. And again, I don't want to instantly butcher a unit I assault. I want to spend a turn immune to shooting. Unless it's an MC. Which I want to butcher instantly and take no return attacks from. There aren't many AP 3 weapons worth taking in the game. So everyone jumps straight to AP 2. Furthermore, everyone needs a bucket of AP 2 to kill DK and Riptides. SG are just a sideshow compared to those units.

To me, the real selling point of the SG is that you don't have to get them any upgrades at all. No priest, no additional equipment, nothing. Except maybe the banner. They don't need the WS because of master crafted, and as far as FNP goes, I think it's statistically superior to just buy more SG.

Of course the min troop thing would be much better with regular marines, EVERYTHING is much better with regular marines. BA quite literally have no niche at all.

Also, bikers being better in every way doesn't help at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 General Kroll wrote:
I don't get all the assault marine hate, mine have always performed really well. And Vanguard Vets are even better. Especially as part of the Shadowstrike kill team.

They can't fight real assault units. They're just bullies.

Martel732 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 General Kroll wrote:
I don't get all the assault marine hate, mine have always performed really well. And Vanguard Vets are even better. Especially as part of the Shadowstrike kill team.

They can't fight real assault units. They're just bullies.

The trick is to leverage them against units that they CAN be effective against. Like you say, they are bullies, use them as such.

4 Stormboyz, and one Nob with Klaw. 80 Points?

Yeah 80 points. Too bad you can't Assault after landing Da Vulcha Skwad in from a Deepstrike, as that would be an even better use for them. I have fun using Stormboyz, even if they aren't the best jump unit. They could use a Strength boost since you can't bring Shootas, or at the least a slightly higher Initiative given their love of training... And it would be nice if a Nob character was included to model (body/arms at least), but oh well.

For the record, Death Company are absolutely more durable for the points than Sanguine Guard except to SPECIFICALLY AP3. Plus you don't need Power Weapons on everyone when you just throw a couple of hidden Power Fists, Bolters, and Rage + Furious Charge.
Sanguine Guard also require babysitters to help them soak wounds like the Priest and Dante. At MOST you only maybe want Dante in your Death Company, but he's not necessary for them to function.

 Haravikk wrote:
Does anyone actually have good Jump Infantry right now?

Not right now, because still no Ursarax- and Artalax-modells, a.k.a. murdermachines. Tought, I tested Ursarax with proxies a while ago. As I said, murdermachines.

Flamers of Tzeentch can be pretty good - summon them next to some 4+ saves (firewarriors, scouts, guard etc) and they can wreck some havoc. Then next turn they can jump away and do the same thing to something else.

I wouldn't use them against anything that has a decent save against them though, since you'll start handing out FNP buffs... God that Warpflame rule is stupid.

Another vote for Scourges. Take 5 of them with 4 Haywire Blasters/Heat Lances/Blasters, Deep Strike next to a tank and delete it, all for 120pts (140 if you take the Blasters). Admitedly with T3, 4+/6++ and Feel no Pain they're not exactly the most survivable of units but by the time they're getting shot at they've probably already made their points back.

I also vote Seraphim. Point for point they are surprising tough, shoot very well with hand flamers (well... Once) and if Saint Celestine is hanging out with them are pretty evil in assault and can play hit and run shenanigans reliably. With the Saint and some upgrades they are a 335 point unit of fast moving whirling death for anything not wearing 2+ armor. Easily one of my favorite units in 40k. Woe betide anybody who tangles with that unit if we ever get a good faith system like 3rd edition back.

You want to make a very simple and effective SoB fandex? Implement the 3rd edition Faith system with a few tweaks, give Immolators back they're fire point (it's on the freaking model GW!), give Repentia FnP full time, put Eviscerators back in wargear section for Veteran Superiors, and make Penetent Engines not suck. Job done. No need to adjust points at all if Faith went back to being an actual useful ability again. I'll happily overpay 2-3 points per model in the current Codex if I could use 3rd edition Faith. It was that good...

People seem to be misreading the question. It's not "the best jump infantry" it's "good jump infantry" most of the examples provided here are the creme de la gak.

Skyclaws are quite good in that they are assault marines that have rage for 4 attacks on the charge (and have counter attack as do all Space Wolves) for the price of a tactical marine at the cost of being WS/BS 3. Tons of attacks for relatively cheap while having the same durability against shooting is fairly good. Also considering that they are one of the "Claw" units they gain the benefits of being with Wulfen from 12" away instead of the standard 6" which being in range of the Wulfen makes them quite mobile and able to pull off some long range charges.

What makes Seraphim so good?

 Griddlelol wrote:
People seem to be misreading the question. It's not "the best jump infantry" it's "good jump infantry" most of the examples provided here are the creme de la gak.

I'm not sure - Vanguards qualify as cream of the gak. Vangards are well worth their points now they can charge turn 1 and with librarus giving them real resiliency.

pm713 wrote:
What makes Seraphim so good?

Cheap gunslingers who can take 2 Hand Flamers or Inferno Pistols, Hit and Run and an Act of Faith that gives Shred. A rerollable 6++ save can help mitigate their squishy nature, being only T3.

Cohen biker models first add +1T, and can turbo boost, AND get their durability doubled by jink, it's real hard to see jump packers as a category compete.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cohen biker models first add +1T, and can turbo boost, AND get their durability doubled by jink, it's real hard to see jump packers as a category compete.

pm713 wrote:
What makes Seraphim so good?

What Lammi said, plus their ridiculously low cost.

What about Grey Knight Interceptors? Force weapons, incinerators, hammers, 30" shunt move once per game, Hammerhand? They are expensive as all get out, but since grey knights have no bikes they are not really competing against anything that share their slot does their job better.

Interceptors are too many points for a unit that's going to shoot once and then die, because T4/3+ is just too fragile these days. The rerollable 6++ and mere 15ppm is one of the reasons Seraphim are boss.

SemperMortis wrote:
On the other hand, are Crisis suits considered jump or jet? I want to say Jet, but if by some happy coincidence they are jump, I would say those.

"Jet pack infantry" in the new codex. I had to look it up because I didn't know jet pack infantry was actually its own unit type now. Used to be they were still classed as jump infantry but had (jet pack) next to the unit type.

 Sidstyler wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
On the other hand, are Crisis suits considered jump or jet? I want to say Jet, but if by some happy coincidence they are jump, I would say those.

"Jet pack infantry" in the new codex. I had to look it up because I didn't know jet pack infantry was actually its own unit type now. Used to be they were still classed as jump infantry but had (jet pack) next to the unit type.

They where jet pack infantry in 6th edition as well.

I thought the FAQ ruled against just running through walls? (Rightfully.) Which should give jump infantry their rightful, logical role.

Alcibiades wrote:
I thought the FAQ ruled against just running through walls? (Rightfully.) Which should give jump infantry their rightful, logical role.

Yeah, but I also think the FAQ said that vertical movement doesn't count IIRC. So Jump Infantry can jump over walls and possibly buildings.