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So, I had my first game of N3 last night. A friend of mine is trying to focus on that as his main game, so I thought I'd give it a go. New opponent and all.

First he raved about how the new version was so much better, and simpler, than the Second Ed. I need people to bring me down to eart a bit.

Here were my initial thoughts, pêle-mêle as we say(in no particular order):

Hacking: I was taken aback by the full printout of hacking programs you can run. Since I had only played against Ariadna in N2, I had never learned hacking, but it seemed to consist of f-to-f rolls and that was it. Last night, the only HI was shot down (by my hacker, ironically) before I could get to use it, and his hacker got shot by my Machinist (I still only play PanO), but I feel like I dodged a bullet there. Should we have specified no hacking as an intro game?

Model count: We had settled on 150pts, and I brought 9 models, while he had 6 (one was AD, so his first turn looked a bit anemic) I feel that having a plethora of orders to support a strong figure is still a valid strategy in "king of the hill" type s of encounters. Which I am given to understand is a rarity, thankfully. He wanted me to read a scenario but since he only gave it to me 1 hour before the game (during my work shift, in other words), I told him I couldn't process all that information in time. I remember trying to understand some Paradiso scenarios and failing miserably.

Fiddliness, crunchyness: I wasn't convinced a bunch of tokens was the way to go, and I feel like they added more, on top of cards. Now I love Malifaux, so I don't know why that would bother me, but having a scenario, on top of objective points that you have to choose/are randomly assigned. I was in LoL by turn two (a stray missile) and he had to check his rulebook because he said "It never happens. Game rarely reach past turn three." So I guess I'm some special kind of stupid. Yay me!

Sectorials: Since I had warned him that I had been forbidden from using TAGs and Link Teams by my former opponent, he decided to make a vanilla list to ease me into it. He right away complained that this was handicapping him to no ends because his models are too expensive for what they do (he plays Haqq), and that having to rely on naked stats was just not his thing.

I love the models, I like playing on a table full of terrain, but I'm not super aggressive in skirmish games (I was last night, and I ended up wiping him out) so maybe the game is just not for me. I'll admit, playing at 21h00 and having to get back up at 06h00 the following morning was NOT the greatest idea. Any suggestion for me to love the game? Tell me why you love it, I think I want to.

I think so much of a game experience comes down to your gaming group and the kind of games they play. I've had poor games turn into a fun experience (that you can enjoy despite the game itself), and good games turned into a chore by an anally-retentive opponent.

I do definitely think with Infinity you have to take a proper bite rather than a nibble. There is so much depth to the way the game plays (and I've found a lot of appreciation comes from deeper into a string of games, against people who know what they are doing). The rules are detailed and complex, it's tiring (mentally) to play. X-Wing or AoS it ain't, like you say perhaps not the best game to play late in the evening and when conscious of time!

I think some of the most appealing mechanics (the tactics, counter-tactics, and counter-counter-tactics) can only come in when you've played further into it. Stuff like hacking, using specialist weapons and troopers. If they get used haphazardly (and without the correct way of using them) it can make the game feel unweildy and awkward.

So, my key piece of advice would be to get 'into it' as much as you can if you want to appreciate it to its fullest. My main love of it comes from the miniatures and aesthetic, the balance of the mechanics, and also that (like the best games) you can fully appreicate when you're thoroughly beaten by a 'master' who has a full understanding of how to play the game. There aren't many games that can do that. It's the Street Fighter 2 vs. Mortal Kombat (of learning how to play, vs. button mashing, if you can remember back that far ) that appeals a lot.

But, I do think that sometimes you just want to button-mash, and if its late and you're tired probably something like Zombiecide is a better bet

Hacking is fairly interesting on its own, but it gets a lot more interesting when you start factoring in Repeaters and things like that. At 150 points people probably aren't bringing enough Hackers and hackable things to really make it all that spectacular, but when you force your opponent's TAG pilot to eject or immobilize an important HI you'll see the value. I like throwing Supportware on my total reaction bot to give him Marksmanship L2, or on my HI to protect them against hacking attacks.

Model count is important, but 6 dudes at 150 points lets you drop 25 points per guy. A rando Ghulam is 12 points, so if you bring 3 of those now you have 114 points for 3 guys. That's 3 Jannissaries, which are super badass HI. Meanwhile if you have 8 cheerleaders (say 10 pt each) fueling a 70 point guy, he's probably still only a 2W HI. In other words, 2 crits away from you losing half of your army To put it in perspective, I ran a single order group Ariadna list last night - 10 guys, 300 points. Everybody in that list was pretty tough. When I field double order groups, rarely do I have a bunch of cheerleaders pumping orders into a single tough model.

Haqq can do great at 150 points. I really have no idea why he was moaning. It really sounds like your problems lie in your opponent rather than the game.

Something like this is well rounded for vanilla haqq and would be fun to play. 7 dudes. One dude is a dedicated cheerleader but you need models to watch flanks too.

Haqqislam
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

6 1
GHULAM Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
GHULAM Lieutenant Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
GHULAM Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 16)
FARZAN (Minelayer) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
FIDAY Rifle + Light Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 31)
FASSED HMG / Pistol, CCW. (2 | 41)
BASHI BAZOUK Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)

2.5 SWC | 150 Points

Open in Infinity Army

I'm an X-wing guy, through and through. I only remember the envy of those that had the consoles to play those games.

Infinity might not be the game for me... or my friend then. He can only play a couple of games a month, if that. We only see each other every other Thursday night (I have a dedicated gaming table at a mezzanine at work). It's a shame, because, as you said, I like the idea of balance, and I love the minis. Even if my whole FFRM is conversions. None of my other friends will ever pick up the game (some hate metal figs, others painting, others terrain making). It's as if those that play Infinity are an elite few!

I'll say one thing for the game, the d20 granularity is the kind of thing I like, instead of the d6.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Nuggz: He had a rocket launcher guy, a total reaction HMG remote, a doctor with servant (which tried to follow the rocket launcher guy) a Jannisary and a hacker.

He wasn't moaning per se, just saying that playing Linked Teams is easier for him, because you can do so much with your order pool.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Infinity might not be the game for me... or my friend then. He can only play a couple of games a month, if that. We only see each other every other Thursday night (I have a dedicated gaming table at a mezzanine at work). It's a shame, because, as you said, I like the idea of balance, and I love the minis. Even if my whole FFRM is conversions. None of my other friends will ever pick up the game (some hate metal figs, others painting, others terrain making). It's as if those that play Infinity are an elite few!

Playing every other week sounds like a dream. I get to play once a month at best. e try to squeeze two games in, but playing more often than that never seems to happen. With that small amount of gaming time, my friends and I manage to play both Infinity and Malifaux.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
@Nuggz: He had a rocket launcher guy, a total reaction HMG remote, a doctor with servant (which tried to follow the rocket launcher guy) a Jannisary and a hacker.

He wasn't moaning per se, just saying that playing Linked Teams is easier for him, because you can do so much with your order pool.

That right there that I emphasized? That's what he did wrong at 150pts. A Jannisary is nearly 1/3 of your points, and they're basically just Ghulam with better armour and AP ammo. They're plain jane. At 300pts you can absorb a couple of heavy infantry because you have more point to bring supporting units. At 150pts they're a huge points sink. He would have been better off dropping the Jannisary and bringing a couple of good light infantry, like Muyibs or Odalisques.

Whereas I had a couple of Fusiliers (my ill-fated Lt) a couple of Auxilia (I find them very points efficient) a Machinist, a Mulebot, a Kamau hacker a Bagh-Mari and... a Hexa with spitfire.

I've been looking at the army builder... no one told me that drop bears were "a thing!" Are they cool? Please tell me they're cool.

And I might be buying myself a Seraph.

Not sure about drop bears, but continuing the Haqqislam tangent, at 150pts I'd have something like this.

You have 8 Regular orders. 6 potential Lt models for an awesome 'guess the Lt' shell game. You have two big guns - a Ghulam with a HMG to sit back and put in suppressive fire to watch your back, and a Muyib with a Spitfire. Couple the Muyib with the Odalisque and you've got two cheap point men. The Odalisque may only have a Boarding Shotgun, but with NWI and ARM 2 she's very mean. That unit has done some great work for me at low points. You've got a Hacker, the Barid, who also has a Pitcher. This lets him shoot repeaters across the board! This is very handy.There's the obligatory Haqqislam doctor. She may only be a Ghulam, but she's a Doctor Plus so she's healing on a 17.

Finally you've got the good old Ghazi. These guys may be Extremely Impetuous and Irregular, but look at what you get for 5 measly points. A Chain Rifle. Hope you don't clump your troops. An E/Marat. You like Remotes? Sorry, they're IMM-2'd and Isolated. A Jammer for more Isolation. Smoke Grenades for concealing movement. Dogged so it can rambo even if shot.

At 150pts this list can go almost every objective (just can't do Engineer objectives IIRC), can handle a lot of scenarios, has two pretty great point men, a backup heavy weapon, a good Doctor, a good Hacker and a good toolbox unit.

Haqqislam
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

8 1 1
GHULAM Lieutenant Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
GHULAM HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 20)
GHULAM Doctor Plus (MediKit) Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 16)
GHULAM (Forward Observer) Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
GHULAM Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
BARID Hacker (Hacking Device) Rifle + Pitcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21)
ODALISQUE Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
MUYIB (X Visor) Spitfire, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 28)
MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat, Jammer, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)

2.5 SWC | 150 Points

Open in Infinity Army

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Sectorials: Since I had warned him that I had been forbidden from using TAGs and Link Teams by my former opponent, he decided to make a vanilla list to ease me into it. He right away complained that this was handicapping him to no ends because his models are too expensive for what they do (he plays Haqq), and that having to rely on naked stats was just not his thing.

That's not true at all. Haqq has good combos available to them, fireteams are quite likely the most blunt way to increase your efficiency. However as PanO player I'd gladly give up my TAG selection or BS increase to have Haqq's level of synergy and options. I could probably tinker the following a list a bit more, but it seems good to go at first glance.

Haqqislam
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

7 2 2
DJANBAZAN HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 35)
MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat, Jammer, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat, Jammer, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
FARZAN (Minelayer) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
GHULAM Doctor Plus (MediKit) Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 16)
GHULAM HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 20)
NASMAT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
NAFFATÛN Rifle + Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
NAFFATÛN Rifle + Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
HAFZA Lieutenant Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 16)

2.5 SWC | 149 Points

I've noticed Govad have KHD available to them. Oh, Hunzakut and Govad combo is so tempting to try. WIP 14 is amazing, not only for killing hackers but for using cybermask too.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I've been looking at the army builder... no one told me that drop bears were "a thing!" Are they cool? Please tell me they're cool.

They are. Locust and Black Friar are the profiles you want to take.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I love the models, I like playing on a table full of terrain, but I'm not super aggressive in skirmish games (I was last night, and I ended up wiping him out) so maybe the game is just not for me.

Playing on amazing sci fi table with vibrantly coloured models is what partially keeps me going. I know how you feel, the need to play super aggressive and how easily everything just snowballs from one mistake or unlucky roll doesn't sit that well with me either.

I love the depth of the game. I've been playing regularly since N3 dropped and I feel like I've only scratched the surface, and that with only two factions. There are so many new model combos and different tactics to try out that my interest is just as high or even higher than when I started.

In terms of your experience, personally I much prefer games at 300 points, unless I'm using a smaller board size, as otherwise I just end up moving around a lot with impunity. The most engrossing thing for me gameplay wise is the interaction between the active player and the reactive player, which is much less in smaller point games.

Furthermore, you don't need to play aggressively to win, and in many scenarios this will put you at a disadvantage. Another excellent thing about this game is that there are lots of way to win, and you are able to develop a distinctive playstyle. Some people like to drop mines all over the place, some people like camo markers all over the shop, some people like to run Yuan Yuans screaming up the board chain rifling right left and centre.


Finally, check out the 20x20 rules on Datasphere, a nice, fun change from the ITS missions. Stick with it, this game is amazing.

Yours, Infinity fanboi.

Control lists are very strong, unfortunately this forces me (PanOceania) to play aggressively as otherwise I'm risking to get stuck on mines and infiltrators that were deployed on top of the objectives since turn one, or simply die for being exposed to smoke - MSV 2 or white noise - shot combo. Camouflage lists are pure nightmare to play against, as they're going to sit on objectives since first turn and it's so easy to inefficiently burn orders on clearing them.

On the other side of the spectrum I have Steel Phalanx that is very aggressive and had rather interesting changes to them. Although more control elements (mines, cheap DTW, smoke) would be greatly welcomed, I don't have them and once again I'm forced to break my opponent's hammer in my active turn.

Infinity is a strategy game. With nature of games, you can't solve everything with better play. Sometimes you simply need to make a list or pick a unit that gives you an edge over the composition that the opponent is likely to run, although its use is against your preferred style or perhaps even counter intuitive against your mindset.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:


I've been looking at the army builder... no one told me that drop bears were "a thing!" Are they cool? Please tell me they're cool.

They are a thing. An equipment upgrade on certain profiles. Bolts, Locusts, black friar all have profile with them (but only bolts have models at present and the ONLY way to get the actual offical drop bear marker is through artyfakes page - CB sold out of all of theirs, and Tabitha is the only place still selling them.)

On the other hand, a roughly bear shaped hemispherical dome head isn't hard to sculpt ...

I did this, and then made a mould of it, so I could have more if I needed them.

Ok, can someone point me in the direction I'd need to go?

I have zero military orders stuff. And I think their armour could be beefier, more along the lines of Dreamforge Valkir, almost. I also have no Acontecimiento stuff as well.

TAGs aside, I have the original starter pack, Icestorm's PanO, the basic Bolts blister, plus some Bagh-Mari, relevant Dire Foes, some conversions that I use as Hexa or Swiss Guard, the engineer and doctor... but what core group am I missing? What is the core of a good link team?

Decide on what sectorial you'd like to play. Bagh Mari can't be used in NCA and Bolts can't be used in Shock Army.

You're on a crossroad with your collection, leaning more towards NCA. Fusilier SWC box would be great, if you plan to run fireteam of them in NCA. They're also solid investment for generic force. NCA gained two rather interesting unit entries (Black Friar, Locust), however there are no models for them. Your other option for a core fireteam are Bolts, although an option I don't have much love for them. A box of Bolts would fill your army points rather quickly but still allow you to include Swiss or Hexa with some support units. Note that Sectorials tend to give PanO Aleph units who usually offer amazing synergy. Deva box for NCA is nothing short of a must.

Although I understand that Sectorials offer unique advantages, link teams being first among them, I'd like to remain in vanilla, mostly because I think I want to add the Seraph to my collection most of all.

I was always told that 10 orders was the best configuration at any points level, knowing that, I find it hard to combine a link team with only 5 other miniatures, has the game evolved to be more forgiving to lower order pool combat groups?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something like this?

Neoterran Capitaline Army
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 8
FUSILIER HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 18)
FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
FUSILIER Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
FUSILIER (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
BLACK FRIAR (Albedo, Biometric Visor L1) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
LOCUST Boarding Shotgun, Grenades, Drop Bears / Pistol, Shock CCW, Knife. (0 | 30)
LOCUST Boarding Shotgun, Grenades, Drop Bears / Pistol, Shock CCW, Knife. (0 | 30)

GROUP 2 6
AUXILIA Lieutenant Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 14)
AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
SWISS GUARD HMG / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 68)
FUSILIER Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
BOLT Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun, Drop Bears / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)

4.5 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army

Mathieu, it depends entirely upon the game you want to play. It's a lot easier to play single order pool with a link team because you have the order efficiency. You might find that spreading your spending out over two nearly-full combat groups doesn't give you enough crunch. That said, that list looks fairly nasty. A Sierra with HMG would probably be good to lock down fire lanes, and a decent 1:1 trade with your Bolt, and a rando Fusilier is a better LT option than an aggressive Auxilia, if you're looking for advice. Otherwise I think it'd play fine.

One thing you'll notice about Infinity is that there's very little consensus about 'auto-includes.' The most enlightening experience I ever had with gaming was looking at the "What does your gaming table look like?" thread for Infinity. If you juxtapose peoples' responses in that thread with their unit recommendations, it becomes pretty apparent why some guys are nuts-hard for boarding shotguns and other guys are all about HMGs. The meta environment absolutely dictates the ideal army and equipment compositions. There's something very satisfying about that...

 -Loki- wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Infinity might not be the game for me... or my friend then. He can only play a couple of games a month, if that. We only see each other every other Thursday night (I have a dedicated gaming table at a mezzanine at work). It's a shame, because, as you said, I like the idea of balance, and I love the minis. Even if my whole FFRM is conversions. None of my other friends will ever pick up the game (some hate metal figs, others painting, others terrain making). It's as if those that play Infinity are an elite few!

Playing every other week sounds like a dream. I get to play once a month at best. e try to squeeze two games in, but playing more often than that never seems to happen. With that small amount of gaming time, my friends and I manage to play both Infinity and Malifaux.

Me too actually! Lucky if I can get a game in every month or so at the moment

And I love X-Wing as well, SAGA, Zombiecide.. a game for every occassion (and depending on my mood and the style of game I want to play). I think like music, films, video games you can be in a mood for wanting to do one thing or another. Infinity handles the cool sci-fi robots and hi-tech troopers blowing each other-up mood

Good point from tyrannosaurus - the 20x20 missions are great fun, well worth a look if you want to do something outside of ITS.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I was always told that 10 orders was the best configuration at any points level, knowing that, I find it hard to combine a link team with only 5 other miniatures, has the game evolved to be more forgiving to lower order pool combat groups?

Quite opposite. With new command tokens it's possible to lower the number of orders in a specific combat group. The game definitely continuous to favour higher number of orders. TAG, especially when played outside of their sectorials will simply have to bear with this. It's possible to have good results with not the most optimised lists, however that will depend on your meta.

1-I understand the relationship between table and weaponry. I have some terrain, but not quite enough to block ALL firelanes, so a Spitfire is usually a good idea. a Sniper Rifle is useful if set up on heights.

I figure if I keep the number of new rules down to a minimum with each new game I can work up to a standard 300 pts game's full regimen of special rules. It's the Sixth Sense Lv2, against a CH:To Camouflage with a MSV3 and Martial Arts 4 guy (I'm laying it on thick, I know) that scares me.

There is apparently a game night on Tuesdays in a FLGS not too far from my place.

So... back to reading, then. Damn thick rulebooks...