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So the first draft FAQ for GSC asks:
"Q: Is the Ghosar Quintus Broodkin Formation’s Ambush the Unhallowed special rule negated by other Infiltrators or Servo-skulls?
A: No."

So basically if I have Servo-skulls to prevent this exact thing (and automatically losing a unit of the GSC players choice), it's not gonna work?
If I really wanted to pick at this, I could say: the Servoskulls don't 'negate' the ability, they just prevent you from infiltrating within 12". You can still Infiltrate 1" away and charge a unit, just not one that is within 12" of a Servo-Skulls. But that probably won't work will it?

No, it won't work. Because you're then negating the rule.

So how to you prevent the Patriarch and his 2 Genestealers form charging whatever unit they want?
I have a hard time believing that the only 2 things I can do is Reserve everything vulnerable to them (so just about everything short of a WK or IK) or hoping for first turn.

Or have decent over watch.

the patriarch is not bad, but the patriarch and 2 genestealers is not that rough, if they are causing you to get tabled something is wrong with your unit selection.

iirc none of them have assault grenades, you can sit in cover and mess up their assault.

 Galef wrote:
So how to you prevent the Patriarch and his 2 Genestealers form charging whatever unit they want?

Bubble wrap. Overwatch. Take Turn 1 and blow it off the board.

Bubble wrap with a few flamers and watch them die? Heavy Flamers for extra luls?

Null deploy, or run in transports?

In fact, so many ways. the crutch of the 34 point inquisitor is just that, a crutch. it doesnt solve every situation.

While I agree that it's not that bad and that 1 Patriarch and 2 GS probably aren't going to kill much, but I just don't like the idea of there being units combos out that that cannot truly be defended against (looking at you Skyhammer!). I'd rather fight a WK, at least I can deal with that.
I should clarify that I have yet to see anyone use this. I just know how I would use it, and only Tau have the Overwatch to prevent loosing a unit that the Patriarch player chooses. You can always charge backfield units that have little to no Overwatch. Remember that in this formation, the unit has Stealth & Shrouded, so 2+ cover in 99% of cases, because you can deploy 1" away from your target: choose a target near cover, Because of that cover, there is no guarantee that you can kill them if you go first, and the amount of fire directed to them is less at the other targets, but you CANNOT ignore them.

I use Servo-skulls to defend against Scouting Gladius Grav-spam, so I was thinking this could work too, but the FAQ changed that.

Having to spend 600pts on the formation to get this is worth it for Tyranids because it can take out a crucial target (like artillery, scatterbikes, wyvens, etc) and it may also make the opponent clump up to protect those valuable units (or place them in reserves). This can lead to mistakes, all the better for the Hive Mind.

People toss in the servo cady for a very small price that stops a couple rules for the game.

If your list can't handle GSC two units their is a bigger issue.

The princeling will die to most over watch, if your in cover a 5 man squad of marines will kill them before they can even swing.

The HQ while good is not designed to survive by him self. focus fire assault will take him down.

skyhammer got a bit of a nerfhammer without ics coming in with them. Still pretty strong devastators!

peirceg wrote:
skyhammer got a bit of a nerfhammer without ics coming in with them. Still pretty strong devastators!

Love that ruling, makes perfect sense to me.

Its a change to rules, but possibly good for the health of the game

Now, when they put the correct points values in for the wraithknight, guard etc. thenb all will be better.,...

 Galef wrote:
While I agree that it's not that bad and that 1 Patriarch and 2 GS probably aren't going to kill much, but I just don't like the idea of there being units combos out that that cannot truly be defended against (looking at you Skyhammer!). I'd rather fight a WK, at least I can deal with that.

please explain to me how a first turn close combat is any different than a unit shooting in turn one. i never got that.

RedNoak wrote:

 Galef wrote:
While I agree that it's not that bad and that 1 Patriarch and 2 GS probably aren't going to kill much, but I just don't like the idea of there being units combos out that that cannot truly be defended against (looking at you Skyhammer!). I'd rather fight a WK, at least I can deal with that.

please explain to me how a first turn close combat is any different than a unit shooting in turn one. i never got that.

A unit that is shooting can be shot at by multiple other units. A unit that is in close combat cannot be directly shot by anything.

A unit that is shot is very unlikely to be wiped out by a single Wound/Hit, and for full destruction usually has to be run off the board or numerous turns of shooting. One Wound in Close Combat can cause a unit to be destroyed by Sweeping.

because until skyhammer etc brought it back, 7th had basically eliminated (or made it almost imposssible) the 1st player turn charge

I for one am happy with assault having more viability.

 Charistoph wrote:
A unit that is shooting can be shot at by multiple other units. A unit that is in close combat cannot be directly shot by anything.

A unit that is shot is very unlikely to be wiped out by a single Wound/Hit, and for full destruction usually has to be run off the board or numerous turns of shooting. One Wound in Close Combat can cause a unit to be destroyed by Sweeping.

as can one wound at shooting cause a unit to run off the board... also we are talking about one unit beeing able to assault vs your entire army can shoot first turn.

btw you are contradicting yourself... either the unit stays in combat or it sweeps cause of one excess wound and will be shot at next turn, cant have both can we?


in times of multiple D weapons firing across the board in tun one and deepstriking invisible gravcents... a unit of genestealers assaulting turn 1 is the least of my worries...

RedNoak wrote:
as can one wound at shooting cause a unit to run off the board... also we are talking about one unit beeing able to assault vs your entire army can shoot first turn.

Possibly, but usually those units that can be caused to Fall Back by one Wound either have ATSKNF or access to Fearless, at least at first. Both are defenses against being Swept, too.

RedNoak wrote:
btw you are contradicting yourself... either the unit stays in combat or it sweeps cause of one excess wound and will be shot at next turn, cant have both can we?

But being shot at for one turn by one or two units usually will not completely kill it (exceptions exist of course), but that unit that was swept will be completely wiped out without exception. Most shooting just cannot compete at that level. It can be hard to get to that point in an Assault, partly because the challenge to get in that Fight in the first place.

RedNoak wrote:
in times of multiple D weapons firing across the board in tun one and deepstriking invisible gravcents... a unit of genestealers assaulting turn 1 is the least of my worries...

Genestealers, maybe, but Vanguard?

And hey, Command Squad Grav Bikers are also a concern, too, maybe even more than the Gravcents are.

again. in both cases a unit can be destroyed by either one lucky assault or one lucky shooting attack. its rare in both cases and makes no difference.

 Charistoph wrote:
Most shooting just cannot compete at that level.

here we have to agree to disagree
i think shooting obliterates assaulting in the current meta and most shooting attacks can indeed inflict 2-4 wounds on average, which is normally enough for a LD check.

It can be hard to get to that point in an Assault, partly because the challenge to get in that Fight in the first place..

exactly. so why are you concerned by a minor rule that will help to balance the field a bit?

sure SM dont need the AH shenenigens... (although it has been thankfully nerfed quite a bit in the faq) but GSC? why not?

Things can Jink and get other kinds of cover saves against shooting (or be out of LoS). No such save exists in CC.
Sure you can take LD moral checks from being shot at, but that is going to be at your unmodified LD in 99% of cases. In combat you take LD checks minus what you lost combat by, then the possibility of being swept.

I am with Charistoph on this one. There may be tons of ways that shooting can wipe units off the table, but unless you play Tau, nothing can stop a Patriarch and his Princlings from getting into CC and wiping a unit OF THIER CHOSING.
That last bit is all caps because they can choose to charge units that cannot overwatch, or at least have no threatening overwatch, meaning "having decent overwatch" means nothing (unless you're Tau)

RedNoak wrote:
again. in both cases a unit can be destroyed by either one lucky assault or one lucky shooting attack. its rare in both cases and makes no difference.

A unit can recover from Falling Back. But unless you can use a rule like From the Sands, Send In the Next Wave, or Endless Swarms, you cannot recover from being Swept.

RedNoak wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Most shooting just cannot compete at that level.

here we have to agree to disagree
i think shooting obliterates assaulting in the current meta and most shooting attacks can indeed inflict 2-4 wounds on average, which is normally enough for a LD check.

But that Morale Check will rarely kill it straight out, and is made at full LD. It may cause it to Fall Back, but unless the unit is really close to the Edge, their are ways to recover the unit. More often then not, I've seen units shot to death over a course of several units adding that 2-4 Wounds for several turns to wipe it out.

Lost Fights affect LD for Morale Checks unlike with Shooting (unless Stubborn). That makes Sweeping more likely at the end of a fight then the Morale Check from Shooting. In addition, just failing that Fight is cause for a Morale Check, while 25% of the present unit has to be Casualties before it can be forced to take one.

Now, Shooting has some advantages in the fact that most armies have Weapons which will cover the approach and have several opportunities to cause that Morale Check before a Fight ensues, and that's not even counting a lot of cases where your shooting target is also shooting back on their approach.

But my point is that it usually takes more effort, and usually several units involvement, to cause a unit to be destroyed by shooting (either by Fall Back or pure casualties), while in a Fight, it's either stalemate or Sweep in what you are facing, and often one unit to one unit, not many units involved to Fight a unit off the board.

In addition, units being shot can be Charged or shot by others. Units in a Fight can only be targeted by other units coming in to the Fight, making them safe from Shooting, nor can they Shout out of a Fight making a dedicated shooting unit lose its effectiveness.

In short, Fighting offers security from Shooting, an opportunity to wipe out a unit with less concentrated effort, and prevents a good Shooting unit from doing its job, which is why Turn 1 Assaults are a concern.

RedNoak wrote:

It can be hard to get to that point in an Assault, partly because the challenge to get in that Fight in the first place..

exactly. so why are you concerned by a minor rule that will help to balance the field a bit?

Because in order for Shooting to have its balance with Assault, it needs those turns of whittling away a target in order to match its effectiveness. Turn 1 Assaults basically remove that balancing advantage from Shooting. If you compare a unit that is shot at for 2 turns and then takes an Overwatch before getting in to a fight versus a unit that only takes an Overwatch which is more effective? Especially when it may take one turn of shooting before it is capable of Charging another unit and doing the same thing.

Think about if Genestealers hit a Broadside unit. Even if the Genestealers can never quite do enough damage to cause them to break, every Tau turn that Broadside unit is Engaged, its not shooting at the horde or Monstrous Creatures which is its job. If this starts at turn one, it gets people to throw their hands in frustration.

RedNoak wrote:
sure SM dont need the AH shenenigens... (although it has been thankfully nerfed quite a bit in the faq) but GSC? why not?

That's considering specific cases, I am only looking at the general game. Genestealers (or an Elite variant thereof) would be a good case for being able to Assault the turn they Infiltrate like they used to before. It is part of their job, after all. But one also has to look at the general metagame, too. I don't run either of the Skyhammers, and the only units I currently have in my army codex that could use a similar treatment are Flayed Ones, but I don't think that they should get it in their current form.

lol the horrors of genestealer cults potentially destroying one unit your power build. Eat it like a man and annihilate them the second turn or just remember any of those 5th anti outflank tactics.

 Galef wrote:
Things can Jink and get other kinds of cover saves against shooting (or be out of LoS). No such save exists in CC.
Sure you can take LD moral checks from being shot at, but that is going to be at your unmodified LD in 99% of cases. In combat you take LD checks minus what you lost combat by, then the possibility of being swept.

I am with Charistoph on this one. There may be tons of ways that shooting can wipe units off the table, but unless you play Tau, nothing can stop a Patriarch and his Princlings from getting into CC and wiping a unit OF THIER CHOSING.
That last bit is all caps because they can choose to charge units that cannot overwatch, or at least have no threatening overwatch, meaning "having decent overwatch" means nothing (unless you're Tau)

And what exactly are those 3 models going to wipe? The damage output on Patriarch and the Princelings is pretty poor. The Patriarch is decent with his base attacks, the familiar doesnt add much, but the Princelings are poor versions of genestealers. Your looking at about 3-4 wounds total to MEQ. Not exactly terrifying.

I've seen guardsmen slay the swarmlord in melee. Those 3 bugs want to first turn charge me? Let them come and be absorbed by the blob!

ok ere we go

 Charistoph wrote:
A unit can recover from Falling Back. But unless you can use a rule like From the Sands, Send In the Next Wave, or Endless Swarms, you cannot recover from being Swept.

we are still talking about first turn assaulting vs shooting? ok. a unit in turn one is pretty near the table edge, since i need to take an initiative test to be swiped, i would assume rolling the equivilent distance to run of the table is pretty much the same thing.

But that Morale Check will rarely kill it straight out, and is made at full LD. It may cause it to Fall Back, but unless the unit is really close to the Edge, their are ways to recover the unit. More often then not, I've seen units shot to death over a course of several units adding that 2-4 Wounds for several turns to wipe it out.

Lost Fights affect LD for Morale Checks unlike with Shooting (unless Stubborn). That makes Sweeping more likely at the end of a fight then the Morale Check from Shooting. In addition, just failing that Fight is cause for a Morale Check, while 25% of the present unit has to be Casualties before it can be forced to take one.

ok again. you were arguing assaults beeing lost because of one measily wound, which would render the LD loss nearly irrelevent.
if you want to argue that assaulting is in a general way superior to shooting in 40k...well...then u've lost me here, sorry mate

Think about if Genestealers hit a Broadside unit. Even if the Genestealers can never quite do enough damage to cause them to break, every Tau turn that Broadside unit is Engaged, its not shooting at the horde or Monstrous Creatures which is its job. If this starts at turn one, it gets people to throw their hands in frustration.

yeah, think about genestealers and broadsides. how in the hell is a genestealer unit supposed to get in CC against broadsides? one shooting attack can wipe out every last one of em. with an turn one assault they can bind up a similar priced unit for the rest of the game... sounds pretty balanced to me...

RedNoak wrote:
we are still talking about first turn assaulting vs shooting? ok. a unit in turn one is pretty near the table edge, since i need to take an initiative test to be swiped, i would assume rolling the equivilent distance to run of the table is pretty much the same thing.

Not really. Only the longest ranged units usually sit withing one Fall Back range of the table edge. In addition, they can usually only be hit by the same longest ranged units if they are. But a lot also depends on table set up.

RedNoak wrote:
ok again. you were arguing assaults beeing lost because of one measily wound, which would render the LD loss nearly irrelevent.
if you want to argue that assaulting is in a general way superior to shooting in 40k...well...then u've lost me here, sorry mate

Assault is superior in specific circumstances, the only thing that really over the years has changed is the ease of getting those circumstances. Assault hasn't really changed since 5th Edition in terms of the rules that cover it, and even the biggest differences between today and 4th Edition is the inability to Pile In to another Combat.

What has reduced the ease from earlier editions is changes to Shooting Weapons. Yes, AP to Melee Weapons was a significant change, but that really pails when compared to the changes to Rapid Fire, the introduction of Snap Shot replacing most "cannot fire" scenarios, restoration of Overwatch, and the introduction of the Salvo Weapon Type. The additional introduction of Grav Weapons were just icing on the cake to all of that.

Model cost reduction has also been a small factor, but considering that affects the Assault Phase, too, that point is a wash.

In other words, Assault has stagnated while Shooting has gone through a revolution. But even though Assault has stagnated, it still is quite powerful and just as effective at removing a unit as it has ever been. If it wasn't, then HammerWolves would not be scary.

RedNoak wrote:
yeah, think about genestealers and broadsides. how in the hell is a genestealer unit supposed to get in CC against broadsides? one shooting attack can wipe out every last one of em. with an turn one assault they can bind up a similar priced unit for the rest of the game... sounds pretty balanced to me...

Considering that those Genestealers would be hitting a unit that is not as well supported by more front-line units, and those Broadsides are likely to Snap Shooting without Markerlight Support, yeah, there's a good chance of getting in.

But that's if they get in before the Broadsides can fire, and that right there is the concern, that they DO get in before the Broadsides can get anything more than Overwatch in to its Charger.

 Charistoph wrote:
...and those Broadsides are likely to Snap Shooting without Markerlight Support, yeah, there's a good chance of getting in.

Snap Shots have a 16.67% chance to hit. Twin-Linked Snap Shots have a 30.56% chance to hit. Each Missileside/2xMissileDrones combo would get 1.89 hits on average. A full unit of 3 will get ~6 hits at S7 AP4. 4 of 5 of those will wound. Your GSC hit squad isn't looking so hot anymore.

The highest change since 4th isn't really charging from the consolidate. It's that in 4th the negatives to Ld were much less severe; only outnumbering mattered, so combats could last a lot longer.